Is Sansa threatened by Ayra?

[I prefer summer]

On 2017-08-08 at 0:39 PM, EndOfTheRoad said:

I interpret Sansa's look as worry and calculation.  She has not developed a proper poker face.  She is not sure how to fit Arya into her calculations.  As others have pointed out, she has been taking Arya's fierceness and confidence lightly.  She sees in that moment that Arya was not at all joking about her list nor about the possibility of assassinating Cersei.  NOW she realizes that little sister is truly a piece in the Game of Thrones.  And not a pawn either.  Is she going to have to worry about loose-cannon Arya ruining a peace deal?  Is she going to have to try to protect her from execution someday?  She's recently been told she must hold all possibilities in her mind.  I think that was the look of someone who just had their mental deck shuffled in a major way.  A look of sick fascination, a little admiration, and a LOT of WTF am I supposed to do about this?  She probably wasn't counting on her relatives returning and becoming major items for her to worry about.  And that's why Littlefinger's advice was actually terrible, because when you think you can think of all possibilities, you're going to be blindsided by the one you couldn't conceive.  And maybe he intended it that way (or he's just that much of a megalomaniac).

As far as leaving, she's probably aware her poker face isn't that good (or maybe she saw Brienne looking at her).  She's gotta go do some thinking/recovering.

 

 I agree with your comments. And I think your expression about her mental deck being shuffled is dead on and brilliant!

[teej6]

33 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, I am not arguing against the fact that sisters might have some issues to deal with. In fact, they are rather different, that is to be expected. I was just saying that in the particular situation, Sansa wasn't throwing either Arya or Mycah under the bus and her lie didn't incriinate them. Yes, it didn't tell the truth, but it also didn't make a case that Joffrey was right and Arya wasn't. 

I think we will have some tension between these two, but I think it will end up the same way it ended up with Jon. I think LF is going to find out what the phrase "pack of wolves" actually means. 

Yes, Sansa's lie or her lack of memory did not incriminate Arya or Mycah but it did, in a way, exonerate Joffrey. Arya did not deny that she hit Joffrey or that Nymeria attacked him. So that fact was already established. What was in dispute was who started the fight and what was Joffrey's part in the affair. He and Cersei made it sound that Joffrey was an innocent victim, which Sansa did not dispute by her silence. So, in Arya's mind Sansa did betray her instead of standing up for her and her family. And even after the incident, Sansa continued to blame Arya instead of Joffrey, which probably reinforced Arya's impression that Sansa was disloyal to her family. 

You are right, in the show they will first show tension between the sisters so that the audience question Sansa's loyalty, and then she will most likely reveal LF's scheming and save the day for the Starks. 

[AryaUnderfoot33]

4 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

And judging by this very lively debate, I'd suggest that the ambivalence of Sansa's reaction might have been intentional on the part of Sophie and the show runners. They love to misdirect us with foreshadowing and tricky preview editing. I think they are building tension to make us expect LF-driven conflict between the siblings. But I think that conflict, if it comes at all, will be short lived. I just wish they would all sit down and TALK to each other, rather than pose riddles and make cryptic comments. But that is typical dramatic writing, I guess.

 

Absolutely. The writers definitely want us to question Sansa's motives. And given there's a whole thread dedicated to that one look she gave Arya they succeeded. But I expect any Stark sibling tensions to be short lived or a plot misdirection to make double crossing LF a shock. 

 

5 hours ago, Risto said:

No, actually, Sansa also didn't incriminate Arya who was, according to the laws, a guilty party in the confrontation. Ned's noble ideas about Robert aside (who exactly knew that Joffrey was lying as in the books he did admit it). So, one can argue that Sansa was lying to protect her sister from punishment as well as protecting Joffrey from shame. Because, in Westeros, Crown Prince hitting someone = no punishment. But, others hitting Crown Prince = PUNISHMENT. Sansa didn't corroborate either story, which gave Robert a nice exit from a messy situation he, Ned and Cersei created. Sansa telling the outright lie about the incident could be used against Mycah, her pleading the 5th, can't. 

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

Yes, Sansa's lie or her lack of memory did not incriminate Arya or Mycah but it did, in a way, exonerate Joffrey. Arya did not deny that she hit Joffrey or that Nymeria attacked him. So that fact was already established. What was in dispute was who started the fight and what was Joffrey's part in the affair. He and Cersei made it sound that Joffrey was an innocent victim, which Sansa did not dispute by her silence. So, in Arya's mind Sansa did betray her instead of standing up for her and her family. And even after the incident, Sansa continued to blame Arya instead of Joffrey, which probably reinforced Arya's impression that Sansa was disloyal to her family. 

No Sansa lying and saying she didn't remember did not help Arya in anyway.

As. @teej6 already said no one was saying Arya hadn't hit Joffrey. It wasn't a trial for whether she hit him. Robert was treating the trial as two children who got into a fight and finding out who started it: Arya told the truthful events - Joffrey hurt Mycah --> Arya hit him with a stick --> Joffrey tried to kill her with live steel --> Nymeria bit him. Joffrey said that Arya, Mycah and Nymeria attacked him out of nowhere. Sansa not backing up Arya leaves Joffrey's version - as the higher ranking prince whose parent is doing a hell of a better job arguing his case than Ned is arguing Arya's - gain more authority. (Or at the very least stand in equal with Arya's).

Had Sansa told the truth Arya would at least have justification for hitting Joffrey. Robert was open to knowing why the fight started, not going - "doesn't matter how it started, you just admitted to hitting my son, punishment!" Sansa telling the truth would have given the spineless Robert - torn between his wife and best friend - a chance to go "there we go, Joffrey started it, leave everyone else alone." (And from Sansa's pov stop the death hunt for Mycah). Robert was already reluctant to punish Arya anyway. 

And re: striking a Crown Prince is a crime - yes it is but the big thing is Mycah never hit Joffrey. Joffrey's version claimed he did, Arya's didn't. While Arya committed a "crime" in both versions, the truth saves Mycah. He was the complete innocent Sansa sacrificed in lying. And while Arya was protected by her status - Robert wasn't going to execute or cut off the hand of a noblegirl/the daughter of his best friend - Mycah wasn't. And Sansa lying gave the Lannisters justification to keep trying to punish him. 

And yes, the fact Sansa continued to blame Arya for y'know defending an innocent while Sansa threw him under the bus, and claim that Mycah and Lady's deaths were Arya's fault shows that Sansa was never trying to help her sister. I'm not saying Sansa wasn't in a difficult situation, she was torn between obeying her King and family vs. her betrothed and had no training for this situation. But the decision was never driven by anything other than selfishness to stop Joffrey being angry at her/preserve her dreams of Queenship and was not intended to protect Arya. 

5 hours ago, teej6 said:

I agree with you on the fact that Sansa has evolved greatly in the books and somewhat in the show. But @AryaUnderfoot33 is right about Arya's POV on Sansa. Arya isn't privy to Sansa's transformation as we the viewers/readers are. From Arya's POV, Sansa loved Joffrey and admired Cersei, Sansa hated the North and wanted to be queen in the South, Sansa lied and betrayed Arya at the Trident, and Sansa was standing on the dias when Joffrey ordered Ilyn Payne to chop of Ned's head. Arya does not know what transpired after. We as readers/viewers know that Sansa began longing for home and her family but Arya doesn't. Now I don't know if D&D means to imply that Sansa and Arya have aired out their differences and suspicions off screen but as of now if they showed Arya suspicious of Sansa's motives that would make sense. And to top it off, Sansa has creepfinger following her like a puppy who Arya knows was a Lannister toady. So yes, Arya should be weary of Sansa. As for the viewers, D&D wants to keep us on edge and doubt Sansa's real motives and loyalties. That's why they have Sophie giving out ambiguous looks and vibes. Unfortunately, the only plot D&D could come up with at WF before shit hits the fan is sibling rivalry and whether Sansa is truly loyal. In the books, OTOH, we still have Stannis and the Northern Lords fight with the Boltons to keep the readers engaged in the North storyline. 

Yes to all of this. Arya/Sansa tension is a crappy, crappy plot and I was letdown by their pretty unemotional reunion. I was expecting a Sansa-Jon style big dramatic reunion, quick, serious talk forgiving each other for the past and moving on. I'm certainly not excited about a plot of them disagreeing or fighting. BUT because the writers haven't let them have a honest chat, I do understand why in-universe Arya is still suspicious of Sansa. She doesn't know she's changed. From her perspective all Sansa wanted was to be a lady and Queen, the first thing she sees is Sansa ruling WF as Lady Stark and acting as defacto QitN. How's she meant to know she's changed? 

The only silver lining in them forcing a contrived sister conflict is that maybe we'll get the proper heart to heart at the end that we should have got last episode. 

[Mladen]

6 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

No Sansa lying and saying she didn't remember did not help Arya in anyway.

As. @teej6 already said no one was saying Arya hadn't hit Joffrey. It wasn't a trial for whether she hit him. Robert was treating the trial as two children who got into a fight and finding out who started it: Arya told the truthful events - Joffrey hurt Mycah --> Arya hit him with a stick --> Joffrey tried to kill her with live steel --> Nymeria bit him. Joffrey said that Arya, Mycah and Nymeria attacked him out of nowhere. Sansa not backing up Arya leaves Joffrey's version - as the higher ranking prince whose parent is doing a hell of a better job arguing his case than Ned is arguing Arya's - gain more authority. (Or at the very least stand in equal with Arya's).

Had Sansa told the truth Arya would at least have justification for hitting Joffrey. Robert was open to knowing why the fight started, not going - "doesn't matter how it started, you just admitted to hitting my son, punishment!" Sansa telling the truth would have given the spineless Robert - torn between his wife and best friend - a chance to go "there we go, Joffrey started it, leave everyone else alone." (And from Sansa's pov stop the death hunt for Mycah). Robert was already reluctant to punish Arya anyway. 

And re: striking a Crown Prince is a crime - yes it is but the big thing is Mycah never hit Joffrey. Joffrey's version claimed he did, Arya's didn't. While Arya committed a "crime" in both versions, the truth saves Mycah. He was the complete innocent Sansa sacrificed in lying. And while Arya was protected by her status - Robert wasn't going to execute or cut off the hand of a noblegirl/the daughter of his best friend - Mycah wasn't. And Sansa lying gave the Lannisters justification to keep trying to punish him. 

And yes, the fact Sansa continued to blame Arya for y'know defending an innocent while Sansa threw him under the bus, and claim that Mycah and Lady's deaths were Arya's fault shows that Sansa was never trying to help her sister. I'm not saying Sansa wasn't in a difficult situation, she was torn between obeying her King and family vs. her betrothed and had no training for this situation. But the decision was never driven by anything other than selfishness to stop Joffrey being angry at her/preserve her dreams of Queenship and was not intended to protect Arya. 

You put too much on Sansa's testimony, forgetting the fact that everyone knew what happened. Robert knew exactly what happened, he knew Joffrey, he knew everything, he admitted that. So, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't give Robert spine, it would just make Cersei sticking to his son, and the result would be the same. Simply, given the fact that we know what Robert knew and how he felt, there is no reasonable argument that the truth would actually change anything. 

As for Mycah, he was already dead by the time she testified. I sincerely doubt Sansa thought of him, I doubt in that moment Ned or Arya thought of him. It was only when Sandor brought him back dead, Ned realized the true consequences. Unless you want to argue that Sansa's testimony could have revived Mycah so Lannisters can punish him, I don't see how her testimony gave anyone any justification. They did it, with or without her. Hound was sent days before with the orders to kill. Cersei made sure the boy never returns to Robert alive. Just like she was ready to kill Arya.

Yes, Sansa foolishly put the blame on Arya. She was an idiot, but an idiot in love. I know we all believe we were born like new Einsteins or Teslas but the fact remains that she was 11-year-old child in love. Not to mention that for her, everyone seemed to have supported her marriage to Joffrey (yes, even Ned!!! Which is probably Ned's biggest failure as a parent). I don't think for Sansa there was much blind ambition in that moment, more like her persistence to keep the fantasy alive. I think we can all understand child behaving like that, even though it is incredibly stupid and naive. I don't and can't see as some sort of malicious intent towards Mycah or anyone else, as the facts simply contradict that. 

[Gaz0680]

16 minutes ago, Risto said:

You put too much on Sansa's testimony, forgetting the fact that everyone knew what happened. Robert knew exactly what happened, he knew Joffrey, he knew everything, he admitted that. So, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't give Robert spine, it would just make Cersei sticking to his son, and the result would be the same. Simply, given the fact that we know what Robert knew and how he felt, there is no reasonable argument that the truth would actually change anything. 

As for Mycah, he was already dead by the time she testified. I sincerely doubt Sansa thought of him, I doubt in that moment Ned or Arya thought of him. It was only when Sandor brought him back dead, Ned realized the true consequences. Unless you want to argue that Sansa's testimony could have revived Mycah so Lannisters can punish him, I don't see how her testimony gave anyone any justification. They did it, with or without her. Hound was sent days before with the orders to kill. Cersei made sure the boy never returns to Robert alive. Just like she was ready to kill Arya.

Yes, Sansa foolishly put the blame on Arya. She was an idiot, but an idiot in love. I know we all believe we were born like new Einsteins or Teslas but the fact remains that she was 11-year-old child in love. Not to mention that for her, everyone seemed to have supported her marriage to Joffrey (yes, even Ned!!! Which is probably Ned's biggest failure as a parent). I don't think for Sansa there was much blind ambition in that moment, more like her persistence to keep the fantasy alive. I think we can all understand child behaving like that, even though it is incredibly stupid and naive. I don't and can't see as some sort of malicious intent towards Mycah or anyone else, as the facts simply contradict that. 

The King himself had declared that Joffrey and Sansa would be married. Short of instigating rebellion against the crown over it, Ned had no choice or say in the matter.

Ned certainly made mistakes, but supporting the King publicly with an arranged marriage he announced that involved his own family is something every single other Lord in the Seven Kingdoms (including Tywin) would have done. I think it's unfair to fault Ned on that score. He made it pretty clear he was not happy about the marriage in private, but he could not publicly go against his King. That would only serve to put his entire family in danger.

[Mladen]

12 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

The King himself had declared that Joffrey and Sansa would be married. Short of instigating rebellion against the crown over it, Ned had no choice or say in the matter.

Ned certainly made mistakes, but supporting the King publicly with an arranged marriage he announced that involved his own family is something every single other Lord in the Seven Kingdoms (including Tywin) would have done. I think it's unfair to fault Ned on that score. He made it pretty clear he was not happy about the marriage in private, but he could not publicly go against his King. That would only serve to put his entire family in danger.

To his daughter? Look at this from Sansa's perspective, All along her father seems content with her actions, her infatuation. Never, for a single moment, Ned took time to talk with Sansa and explained couple of things (like he did with Arya). Stark kids, all of them, suffered from that privileged life in a fantasy bubble. We have seen Jon reacting to reality of Night's watch. We have seen Arya trusting commonfolk that they would treat her as one of them. So, it is most exacerbated with Sansa, but it exists in all Stark children. 

Look at how Tyrells approached the subject. We know Olenna made sure to know what kind of person Joffrey was, before actually accepting offer. And then, they prepared Margaery how to deal with him. That is something Ned should have done. Well, or Catelyn, if she was there. He should have seen how infatuated his daughter is and act on time.

[teej6]

26 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

The King himself had declared that Joffrey and Sansa would be married. Short of instigating rebellion against the crown over it, Ned had no choice or say in the matter.

Ned certainly made mistakes, but supporting the King publicly with an arranged marriage he announced that involved his own family is something every single other Lord in the Seven Kingdoms (including Tywin) would have done. I think it's unfair to fault Ned on that score. He made it pretty clear he was not happy about the marriage in private, but he could not publicly go against his King. That would only serve to put his entire family in danger.

Actually in the books Ned did voice his objection and had apprehensions about Sansa marrying Joffrey and him becoming hand of the king. He didn't state it with Robert but he did tell Cat that he would refuse Robert the handship and that Robert would be angry and curse at him at first but then would get over it because Robert loved Ned (and we get confirmation of just such a reaction from Robert from the Dany assasination incident). In that same conversation Ned also opposed Sansa's marriage to Joffrey (it's implied that Ned had misgivings about Joffrey from the start) but Cat wanted her daughter to be queen and insisted that Ned accept Robert's offer. It was then that Maester Luwin comes with Lysa's letter and both Cat and Luwin convince Ned to go south to help his friend. Ned's reluctance and Cat's ambition was not portrayed in the show fully. Of course, after what happened to Bran, Cat grew suspicious of the Lannisters.

[AryaUnderfoot33]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

You put too much on Sansa's testimony, forgetting the fact that everyone knew what happened. Robert knew exactly what happened, he knew Joffrey, he knew everything, he admitted that. So, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't give Robert spine, it would just make Cersei sticking to his son, and the result would be the same. Simply, given the fact that we know what Robert knew and how he felt, there is no reasonable argument that the truth would actually change anything. 

As for Mycah, he was already dead by the time she testified. I sincerely doubt Sansa thought of him, I doubt in that moment Ned or Arya thought of him. It was only when Sandor brought him back dead, Ned realized the true consequences. Unless you want to argue that Sansa's testimony could have revived Mycah so Lannisters can punish him, I don't see how her testimony gave anyone any justification. They did it, with or without her. Hound was sent days before with the orders to kill. Cersei made sure the boy never returns to Robert alive. Just like she was ready to kill Arya.

Yes, Sansa foolishly put the blame on Arya. She was an idiot, but an idiot in love. I know we all believe we were born like new Einsteins or Teslas but the fact remains that she was 11-year-old child in love. Not to mention that for her, everyone seemed to have supported her marriage to Joffrey (yes, even Ned!!! Which is probably Ned's biggest failure as a parent). I don't think for Sansa there was much blind ambition in that moment, more like her persistence to keep the fantasy alive. I think we can all understand child behaving like that, even though it is incredibly stupid and naive. I don't and can't see as some sort of malicious intent towards Mycah or anyone else, as the facts simply contradict that. 

Ok, you've come to a different point. The original premise was never about whether Sansa telling the truth would have saved Mycah. I acknowledged right at the beginning that Mycah was already dead and Cersei was always going to play unfairly. I'm not arguing anything ridiculous like that Mycah could have been raised from the dead. I'm not arguing over the logistics, I'm arguing over what Sansa and Arya thought Sansa's testimony meant at the time. 

The initial discussion was about Sansa's perspective when she testified, her knowledge of the situation and the difference she and Arya thought her testimony could make. 

And Sansa's perspective was: 1) She didn't know Mycah had already been killed 2) She knew Joffrey not Arya/Mycah/Nymeria were to blame 3) she was an idealistic 11 year old who idolized the King and Queen as fair and good, she didn't know Robert was useless and Cersei was evil. 

From her perspective, her truthful testimony could have meant the King (ha) could have judged Joffrey as wrong and stopped any punishment of an innocent boy and her sister. Her untrue testimony could have made things worse for Arya and endangered Mycah. (Not got him killed, Sansa wasn't think that drastically, but he could have been punished, whipped or had his hand cut off etc.) That was Sansa's knowledge of the situation....and she made the call not to back up Arya's version of events.

Before you repeat "but Mycah was already dead/Robert was too weak to do anything/Cersei had already sent Sandor out" - that's not my point. We know that justice was never going to be served. But as I've kept saying over and over - Sansa didn't. Arya didn't. That was my original argument.

Your original argument was:  
"One can argue that Sansa was lying to protect her sister from punishment" No. Arya admitted to hitting Joffrey, Sansa just didn't back up that she had a reason to. 
"Sansa telling the outright lie about the incident could be used against Mycah, her pleading the 5th, can't" Sansa didn't have to make up some story about the incident to protect Mycah. All she had to say was "Arya's story was true, Mycah never hit anyone." In contrast, not calling bullshit on Joffrey's lie that Mycah attacked him which put Mycah in danger. You cannot possibly argue that Sansa pleading 5th helped Mycah in any way. 
"Sansa wasn't throwing either Arya or Mycah under the bus and her lie didn't incriinate them." It meant, from Sansa's pov, that the Lannisters still had the grounds to claim their version was true and Sansa lying meant there was no deciding vote between the two versions for Robert and everyone watching.

Arya didn't think of Mycah? The first thing she said when dragged before the court, been lost for days, scared out of her mind and Cersei accused her and Nymeria of attacking Joffrey was: "That's not true. She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah." Hell, she doesn't even mention "Joffrey tried to stab me" as a defense. She was all about Mycah.

Mycah was talked about in the trial. Cersei and Joffrey accused Arya and Mycah of "beating Joffrey with clubs" and "attacking". It wasn't that Mycah was never mentioned and at the end it was "oh yes there was a butchers boy there too." I'll acknowledge that he wasn't at the forefront of Sansa and Ned's worries like he was for Arya. I don't think Sansa went up there going "I could determine if this boy dies or lives." But he was talked about enough that Sansa wouldn't have just forgotten about him. (Plus y'know she saw Joffrey practically torturing him). 

And I didn't say Sansa had "malicious intent" in lying. I said it was selfishness because she didn't want Joffrey to be angry and to preserve her dreams of Queenship (and by that I meant the whole life fantasy she had at the time, which you just refered to). It was selfish and yes she was an 11 year old blinded by love and fantasy. But it still happened. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

To his daughter? Look at this from Sansa's perspective, All along her father seems content with her actions, her infatuation. Never, for a single moment, Ned took time to talk with Sansa and explained couple of things (like he did with Arya). Stark kids, all of them, suffered from that privileged life in a fantasy bubble. We have seen Jon reacting to reality of Night's watch. We have seen Arya trusting commonfolk that they would treat her as one of them. So, it is most exacerbated with Sansa, but it exists in all Stark children. 

Look at how Tyrells approached the subject. We know Olenna made sure to know what kind of person Joffrey was, before actually accepting offer. And then, they prepared Margaery how to deal with him. That is something Ned should have done. Well, or Catelyn, if she was there. He should have seen how infatuated his daughter is and act on time.

Yes, Ned probably was not able to connect with Sansa as he did with Arya. Arya giving her dad flowers in the books while Sansa thinking of that action as stupid and unlady-like is a prime example. Arya connected with Ned and reminded him of his beloved sister. 

I must disagree with you on the bolded part. I don't think the Stark kids lived a life removed from reality. Quite the contrary. Ned made sure his sons (including Jon) learned how to care for the needs of the common folk. He probably left the education of the girls to Catelyn, who I think failed both Arya (who she couldn't understand) and Sansa (who she spoiled). Septa Mordane's prejudices and failings only exaceberated the problem. As to Arya feeling that the commonfolk would treat her like one of them, I don't know where in the text/show she feels that she isn't treated like the commonfolk because she is, most of the time, not recognized as a Lady. Gendry who knows who she is has a very close relationship with her. Yes, she feels betrayed by the Brotherhood but she knows that's because they want to collect ransom for her. No illusions on her part there. As for Jon, he was under the mistaken impression that the NW was composed of men like his uncle. But as soon as Donal Noye (Tyrion in the show) gave him a knock on the head and explained things to him, he adjusted and made friends among the commoners rather easily.

What the other Stark kids (including Jon) had that Sansa lacked initially was a sense of loyalty to the North and family. Don't get me wrong, it's not that Sansa didn't care about her family but in the world she built, she cared more about her handsome prince and becoming his wife and queen. She grew out of it of course, but it took her dad losing his head for that to happen. She didn't want to recognize it before even when Joffrey turned out to be a shithead and nothing like the noble chivalrous prince she dreamed of. She was not stupid, she just refused to believe that Joffrey and Cersei were ugly within, something that Jon, Arya, and Robb saw from the get go. Even when Ned finally puts his foot down and tells her Joffrey is wrong for her she does not want to accept it. And in the books we know she betrays her father's trust for her selfish desires. And perhaps had Sansa had the relationship Arya had with Ned maybe she would not have ran to Cersei. She couldn't understand her father's pain and fears like Arya could. When Ned has his conversation with Arya in AGOT, she's immediately able to pick up on the sadness in her father's voice and his anxiety.

[AryaUnderfoot33]

56 minutes ago, teej6 said:

What the other Stark kids (including Jon) had that Sansa lacked initially was a sense of loyalty to the North and family. Don't get me wrong, it's not that Sansa didn't care about her family but in the world she built, she cared more about her handsome prince and becoming his wife and queen. She grew out of it of course, but it took her dad losing his head for that to happen. She didn't want to recognize it before even when Joffrey turned out to be a shithead and nothing like the noble chivalrous prince she dreamed of. She was not stupid, she just refused to believe that Joffrey and Cersei were ugly within, something that Jon, Arya, and Robb saw from the get go. Even when Ned finally puts his foot down and tells her Joffrey is wrong for her she does not want to accept it. And in the books we know she betrays her father's trust for her selfish desires. 

Exactly. It wasn't that Sansa never loved her family, or that she didn't come to appreciate the North as time went on. But at the beginning in s1/book 1, she stood out as the Stark kid who wasn't keen on the North whose dreams were wrapped up in a Southern husband and life. (And it wasn't just that that marriage was what she'd been taught, Arya had been told the same thing and loved the North and it's people. It was down to difference in personality and interests). 

Tbh, Sansa's refusal to see the truth about Joffrey and Cersei stretches belief. She literally saw Joffrey cut an innocent boy's face open for fun, almost kill her sister and then Cersei has Sansa's wolf killed. She still convinces herself they're good. Then, there's a fight with Jaime where her father is almost killed and Jory is killed - who Sansa has known since childhood and is close to the family.She still thinks the Lannisters are good. Then her injured father announces they're leaving. Sansa responds by going to Cersei. I'm sorry but wouldn't she realize something was up?? Even at 11? Arya knew Stark-Lannister relations weren't good even before Ned talked to her.

56 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yes, Ned probably was not able to connect with Sansa as he was with Arya. Arya giving her dad flowers in the books while Sansa thinking of that action as stupid and unlady-like is a prime example. Arya connected with Ned and reminded him of his beloved sister. 

I must disagree with you on the bolded part. I don't think the Stark kids lived a life removed from reality. Quite the contrary. Ned made sure his sons (including Jon) learned how to care for the needs of the common folk. He probably left the education of the girls to Catelyn, who I think failed both Arya (who she couldn't understand) and Sansa (who she spoiled). Septa Mordane's prejudices and failings only exaceberated the problem. As to Arya feeling that the commonfolk would treat her like one of them, I don't know where in the text/show she feels that she isn't treated like the commonfolk because she is, most of the time, not recognized as a Lady. Gendry who knows who she is has a very close relationship with her. Yes, she feels betrayed by the Brotherhood but she knows that's because they want to collect ransom for her. No illusions on her part there. As for Jon, he was under the mistaken impression that the NW was composed of men like his uncle. But as soon as Donal Noye (Tyrion in the show) gave him a knock on the head and explained things to him, he adjusted and made friends among the commoners rather easily.

 

1 hour ago, Risto said:

To his daughter? Look at this from Sansa's perspective, All along her father seems content with her actions, her infatuation. Never, for a single moment, Ned took time to talk with Sansa and explained couple of things (like he did with Arya). Stark kids, all of them, suffered from that privileged life in a fantasy bubble. We have seen Jon reacting to reality of Night's watch. We have seen Arya trusting commonfolk that they would treat her as one of them. So, it is most exacerbated with Sansa, but it exists in all Stark children. 

Look at how Tyrells approached the subject. We know Olenna made sure to know what kind of person Joffrey was, before actually accepting offer. And then, they prepared Margaery how to deal with him. That is something Ned should have done. Well, or Catelyn, if she was there. He should have seen how infatuated his daughter is and act on time.

I do think that there were gaps in the Stark kids education, Ned had a tendency to bury his head in the snow about the futures and I'm sideyeing Catelyn as well. i.e. Why wasn't Robb betrothed? Or even Sansa? Why hadn't he at least thought about some plans for Jon, so Jon didn't feel his only option was the NW? He knew Robert was coming to offer him the Handship, maybe prepare a better excuse to say no? They expected Sansa to make a great Southern match, maybe prep her for it. The Starks kids also did seem to be a bit naive. 

And yes, Ned screwed up bad with the Joffrey situation and looking after the girls at KL. He should have called off the match with Sansa long before. Probably should have sent Arya back to WF after the Mycah incident. He should have had a better guardian than Septa Mordane for the girls. He should have talked to Sansa. Ned failed at managing in court. The books acknowledge that, Ned dies for those mistakes. 

The ultimate problem imo was Ned prepared the Stark kids for Northern life and rulership. Had they all remained in the North and out of the game of thrones things probably would have been fine. But he and Catelyn made no contingency for teaching them to survive in the South.

That said, it's notable that Sansa was one who was really naive and made particularly ridiculous mistakes before all hell broke loose. (Robb made big mistakes once he was forced to become King during war but those were exceptional circumstances that anyone would struggle with, albeit, it did show the issues in the Starks upbringing and lack of political education. Sansa made mistakes in less exceptional circumstances).

Why Sansa was quite so oblivious I don't know. Maybe her naivety was highlighted because she and Arya were the only one who went South. (Aforementioned, "raised in Northern ways" problem). Or like you said, maybe it was on Catelyn and Septa Mordane as they were in charge of the girls education. Why did they let Sansa labour under this belief the world was a song?(In that case, did Ned do a better job with the boys, than Cat did with the girls?) 

But, the thing is, even if Ned and Cat did raise the kids to be overly idealistic, the rest of the Stark kids snapped out of it pretty fast. Sansa didn't. Like @teej6 mentioned, Jon went into the NW naive and kind of a snob but after a talking to got over it. For Arya, the Mycah incident broke her own idealism about the world. There's a hugely significant moment when she reflects that none of the WF men not even her father fought for Mycah, but unlike Sansa who avoids seeing the truth Arya faces it head on and it permanently changes her worldview and that things aren't fair. She can't bring herself to talk to WF men for a while and certainly never trusts the Lannisters. (Arya having her faith in justice and caring about the smallfolk challenged, is like Sansa having her fantasies of marriage/knights/chivarly questioned. But they respond very differently). Whereas for Sansa, it literally takes her father getting beheaded to see life as it is.

So while, Ned and Cat neglected aspects of teaching the kids about the dangers of the world, a lot of it's Sansa's personality.

 

[teej6]

46 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

I do think that there were gaps in the Stark kids education, Ned had a tendency to bury his head in the snow about the futures and I'm sideyeing Catelyn as well. i.e. Why wasn't Robb betrothed? Or even Sansa? Why hadn't he at least thought about some plans for Jon, so Jon didn't feel his only option was the NW? He knew Robert was coming to offer him the Handship, maybe prepare a better excuse to say no? They expected Sansa to make a great Southern match, maybe prep her for it. The Starks kids also did seem to be a bit naive. (And yes, Ned screwed up bad with the Joffrey situation. Ned failed at going South and managing in court. The books acknowledge that, Ned dies for that mistake). 

The ultimate problem imo was Ned prepared the Stark kids for Northern life and rulership. Had they all remained in the North and out of the game of thrones things probably would have been fine. But he and Catelyn made no contingency for teaching them to survive in the South.

That said, it's notable that Sansa was one who was really naive and made particularly ridiculous mistakes before all hell broke loose. (Robb made big mistakes once he was forced to become King during war but those were exceptional circumstances that anyone would struggle with, albeit, it did show the issues in the Starks upbringing. Sansa made mistakes in less exceptional circumstances).

Why Sansa was quite so oblivious I don't know. Maybe her naivety was highlighted because she and Arya were the only one who went South. (Aforementioned, "raised in Northern ways" problem). Or like you said, maybe it was on Catelyn and Septa Mordane as they were in charge of the girls education. (In that case, did Ned do a better job with the boys, than Cat did with the girls?) 

But, the thing is, even if Ned and Cat did raise the kids to be overly idealistic, the rest of the Stark kids snapped out of it pretty fast. Sansa didn't. Like @teej6 mentioned, Jon went into the NW naive and kind of a snob but after a talking to got over it. For Arya, the Mycah incident broke her own idealism about the world. There's a hugely significant moment when she reflects that none of the WF men not even her father fought for Mycah, but unlike Sansa who avoids seeing the truth Arya faces it head on and it permanently changes her worldview and that things aren't fair. She can't bring herself to talk to WF men for a while and certainly never trusts the Lannisters. (Arya having her faith in justice and caring about the smallfolk challenged, is like Sansa having her fantasies of marriage/knights/chivarly questioned. But they respond very differently). Whereas for Sansa, it literally takes her father getting beheaded to see life as it is.

So while, Ned and Cat neglected aspects of teaching the kids about the dangers of the world, a lot of it's Sansa's personality.

 

The naivete was an inherent characteristic of Ned, which his sons adopted to some extend. As you know in the books, with the exception of the Boltons, the Northerners are shown to be rather plain men without much guile and deception (of course Manderly is shown to be a schemer but then the Manderlys are transplants in the North). Ned instilled his moral code in his sons and in the process also ay have made them too honorable and therefore vulnerable to schemers and backstabbers. It's not that Ned did not properly educate his kids, he actually was a hands-on Lord and father (with his sons at least) but his ideals and those that he taught his kids were not suitable in the South. As to his upbringing of Jon, he ignored making arrangements for Jon because he didn't think he would have to so soon. He prayed Jon and Robb would grow up to love each other like brothers, which they did. We don't know if Ned was hoping to arrange for Jon to get a small keep of his own in the future or if he completely avoided thinking about Jon's future. All we know is that Robert's arrival and offer precipated events in Ned and his kids lives. Jon made the decision to join the NW and although Ned didn't really want that for him, he was too much of a coward to oppose Cat and couldn't make other arrangements for Jon at such short notice. So he reluctantly agreed to Jon joining the NW, which was wrong of him to do.

You are probably right that Ned didn't make plans for marriages or alliances for Robb and Sansa because he fell into a sense of comfort and complacency in the North. Ned is clearly not an ambitious man. His guilt and sadness over his father, brother and sister's deaths appeared to have weighed him down his entire life. His lack of foresight and naiveté in dealing with the likes of Cersei and LF was the reason for his and his family's downfall. But he did teach his sons to be just Lords and decent humans, which he thought would suffice in the North. He didn't anticipate the events that would unfold.

Unlike you I don't think Arya had any set notions or illusions of how life should be. She was different but protected in WF and by her father. The Mycah incident was not some sort of rude awakening for Arya. If it happened in a more just court, the outcome would have been very diiferent. I don't think there's anyway either Ned or Cat could have predicted the guile and depravity of Cersei and Joffrey. Arya is angry at the injustice of Mycah's death but that's not something Ned or Cat could have educated Arya on since if Ned or Cat were to sit in judgement of the situation, Mycah would surely have been spared.  In fact, contrary to what Arya thinks, Ned does feel for Mycah and they end up having a conversation about it. 

Could Ned have told his kids that the world is an ugly place with schemers and backstabbers? Perhaps he could have but he himself couldn't recognize this and failed miserably in seeing the evil and treachery in people.

 

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

And Sansa's perspective was: 1) She didn't know Mycah had already been killed 2) She knew Joffrey not Arya/Mycah/Nymeria were to blame 3) she was an idealistic 11 year old who idolized the King and Queen as fair and good, she didn't know Robert was useless and Cersei was evil. 

From her perspective, her truthful testimony could have meant the King (ha) could have judged Joffrey as wrong and stopped any punishment of an innocent boy and her sister. Her untrue testimony could have made things worse for Arya and endangered Mycah. (Not got him killed, Sansa wasn't think that drastically, but he could have been punished, whipped or had his hand cut off etc.) That was Sansa's knowledge of the situation....and she made the call not to back up Arya's version of events.

Before you repeat "but Mycah was already dead/Robert was too weak to do anything/Cersei had already sent Sandor out" - that's not my point. We know that justice was never going to be served. But as I've kept saying over and over - Sansa didn't. Arya didn't. That was my original argument.

From Sansa's POV, she said nothing that can endanger either Arya or Mycah. Yes, she lied (we lnow that for certain as she DID tell Ned the truth), but she didn't side with Joffrey. What Sansa did was exonerate Joffrey but not hurt the other side, which is something people constantly forget. She didn't tell "Joffrey is right". She didn't outright side him and corroborated his side. She was worthless as a witness. At the end of the day, she couldn't have done that as she already told her father what happened. Not backing Arya's version of events doesn't immediately mean she backed Joffrey's. Her testimony didn't support Joffrey's version either. That is the issue I am having with the interpretation that Sansa was so ready to throw whomever under the bus. No, she wasn't. She didn't want Joffrey to be incriminated, yes. But, she wasn't incriminating others either.

52 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I must disagree with you on the bolded part. I don't think the Stark kids lived a life removed from reality. Quite the contrary. Ned made sure his sons (including Jon) learned how to care for the needs of the common folk. He probably left the education of the girls to Catelyn, who I think failed both Arya (who she couldn't understand) and Sansa (who she spoiled). Septa Mordane's prejudices and failings only exaceberated the problem. As to Arya feeling that the commonfolk would treat her like one of them, I don't know where in the text/show she feels that she isn't treated like the commonfolk because she is, most of the time, not recognized as a Lady. Gendry who knows who she is has a very close relationship with her. Yes, she feels betrayed by the Brotherhood but she knows that's because they want to collect ransom for her. No illusions on her part there. As for Jon, he was under the mistaken impression that the NW was composed of men like his uncle. But as soon as Donal Noye (Tyrion in the show) gave him a knock on the head and explained things to him, he adjusted and made friends among the commoners rather easily.

 I have to disagree. While Stark kids were rather inclined to understand the troubles of commonfolk (Sansa included), there was a lot of entitlement. Look at Jon's behavior in AGOT at the Wall. He is more entitled than any other characters at the Wall at that moment. That is one of the reasons why he is called Lord Snow. He believed he was better than them. That is not a lot different from what Sansa felt. Jon believed NW to be some kind of cool order, never understanding how degraded it actually is. Which is Ned's fault. Arya also demonstrates certain illusions. In the show, Gendry clearly points out the difference: "You would be my lady". Her approach was also not working. Not to mention that she questioned her mother's love, something that is beyond crazy, but then again, we can't judge the feelings. 

I don't think Catelyn failed the girls. At least no more than Ned failed his children. I think all Starks had that naivete that expressed itself in various forms. With Sansa it was the starkest (pun intended) demonstration, as her kind of naivete is what most of us would consider outright idiocy. And, it actually was. But, each of them proved to be naive at some point of their story. Only, the rest of Stark kids' naivete is not something we would generally job, but actually sympathize with. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

What the other Stark kids (including Jon) had that Sansa lacked initially was a sense of loyalty to the North and family. Don't get me wrong, it's not that Sansa didn't care about her family but in the world she built, she cared more about her handsome prince and becoming his wife and queen. She grew out of it of course, but it took her dad losing his head for that to happen. She didn't want to recognize it before even when Joffrey turned out to be a shithead and nothing like the noble chivalrous prince she dreamed of. She was not stupid, she just refused to believe that Joffrey and Cersei were ugly within, something that Jon, Arya, and Robb saw from the get go. Even when Ned finally puts his foot down and tells her Joffrey is wrong for her she does not want to accept it. And in the books we know she betrays her father's trust for her selfish desires. And perhaps had Sansa had the relationship Arya had with Ned maybe she would not have ran to Cersei. She couldn't understand her father's pain and fears like Arya could. When Ned has his conversation with Arya in AGOT, she's immediately able to pick up on the sadness in her father's voice and his anxiety.

It is interesting how, with exception of Robb, each Stark kids (each POV) throughout the story felt like an outsider. With Arya and Jon, it is from the get go, Bran becoming cripple made him outsider, and Sansa was rather different from people in her surrounding. And given Martin's proclivity for "dwarves, bastards and broken things", it is almost impressive to see how these outcasts, each in their own right has to work with others and create a pack. But, then again, there is a reason why Martin chose a direwolf for Stark banner  

[AryaUnderfoot33]

 

47 minutes ago, Risto said:

From Sansa's POV, she said nothing that can endanger either Arya or Mycah. Yes, she lied (we lnow that for certain as she DID tell Ned the truth), but she didn't side with Joffrey. What Sansa did was exonerate Joffrey but not hurt the other side, which is something people constantly forget. She didn't tell "Joffrey is right". She didn't outright side him and corroborated his side. She was worthless as a witness. At the end of the day, she couldn't have done that as she already told her father what happened. Not backing Arya's version of events doesn't immediately mean she backed Joffrey's. Her testimony didn't support Joffrey's version either. That is the issue I am having with the interpretation that Sansa was so ready to throw whomever under the bus. No, she wasn't. She didn't want Joffrey to be incriminated, yes. But, she wasn't incriminating others either.

Ok. What? You have two characters: One told the truth, one told a lie. A third character refuses to side with the truth. They're implicitly helping the liar more, because it means the lie gets equal weight as the truth. 

Sansa threw Arya under the bus, because Arya. Was. Telling. The. Truth. It wasn't that Arya and Joffrey both had fair, balanced points of view and Sansa had to choose. Arya was in the right and Joffrey was in the wrong. 

Sansa's lie endangered Arya and Mycah, because it was less basis to punish Joffrey or let Arya/Mycah off the hook. Two against one would have put the blame firmly on Joffrey's side in front of the entire court and the King.

Not siding with the person in the wrong, doesn't discount also not siding with the person in the right. Sansa doesn't deserve a freakin' parade for not going further in her lie for Joffrey. 

Yes, Sansa could have made it worse for Arya and didn't. But Sansa could have made the situation better for Arya. Not by making anything up. Just the plain unaltered truth. Just "That version is true." She didn't. She lied. And that was a betrayal. 

[AryaUnderfoot33]

 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

The naivete was an inherent characteristic of Ned, which his sons adopted to some extend. As you know in the books, with the exception of the Boltons, the Northerners are shown to be rather plain men without much guile and deception (of course Manderly is shown to be a schemer but then the Manderlys are transplants in the North). Ned instilled his moral code in his sons and in the process also ay have made them too honorable and therefore vulnerable to schemers and backstabbers. It's not that Ned did not properly educate his kids, he actually was a hands-on Lord and father (with his sons at least) but his ideals and those that he taught his kids were not suitable in the South. As to his upbringing of Jon, he ignored making arrangements for Jon because he didn't think he would have to so soon. He prayed Jon and Robb would grow up to love each other like brothers, which they did. We don't know if Ned was hoping to arrange for Jon to get a small keep of his own in the future or if he completely avoided thinking about Jon's future. All we know is that Robert's arrival and offer precipated events in Ned and his kids lives. Jon made the decision to join the NW and although Ned didn't really want that for him, he was too much of a coward to oppose Cat and couldn't make other arrangements for Jon at such short notice. So he reluctantly agreed to Jon joining the NW, which was wrong of him to do.

You are probably right that Ned didn't make plans for marriages or alliances for Robb and Sansa because he fell into a sense of comfort and complacency in the North. Ned is clearly not an ambitious man. His guilt and sadness over his father, brother and sister's deaths appeared to have weighed him down his entire life. His lack of foresight and naiveté in dealing with the likes of Cersei and LF was the reason for his and his family's downfall. But he did teach his sons to be just Lords and decent humans, which he thought would suffice in the North. He didn't anticipate the events that would unfold.

I absolutely agree that Ned's education would have been ok if the Starks had stayed in the North. Ned was a very respected and beloved warden of the North, precisely for being plain-spoken, just, honourable, "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" etc. All of which he passed onto his kids, particularly his sons.

But yeah, the main problem - in addition to not planning his kid's futures, marriage for Robb and Sansa, a keep for Jon etc. - was that the kids didn't learn Southern ways. In which case Ned and Catelyn needed to stick with keeping the kids in the North - or at least if Sansa does go South, like the Riverlands or Vale not Kings Landing.  They needed to refuse Robert's offer of handship and Joffrey-Sansa marriage. But overall Ned did a pretty impressive job given he was never raised to be Lord of WF and like you said was carrying the trauma of the rebellion and 3 family members deaths in less than a year. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Unlike you I don't think Arya had any set notions or illusions of how life should be. She was different but protected in WF and by her father. The Mycah incident was not some sort of rude awakening for Arya. If it happened in a more just court, the outcome would have been very diiferent. I don't think there's anyway either Ned or Cat could have predicted the guile and depravity of Cersei and Joffrey. Arya is angry at the injustice of Mycah's death but that's not something Ned or Cat could have educated Arya on since if Ned or Cat were to sit in judgement of the situation, Mycah would surely have been spared.  In fact, contrary to what Arya thinks, Ned does feel for Mycah and they end up having a conversation about it. 

Could Ned have told his kids that the world is an ugly place with schemers and backstabbers? Perhaps he could have but he himself couldn't recognize this and failed miserably in seeing the evil and treachery in people.

 

Idk, I think the Mycah incident was a pretty rude awakening for Arya. She grew up believing that - even if others were unjust - her family and the people of Winterfell would defend those in need and make sure justice was served. That was how she thought life worked. What happened with Mycah and Lady broke that worldview:

Arya had lived nothing better than to sit at her father's table and listen to them [people of WF] talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too....Only that was Winterfell, a world away, and now everything was changed. This was the first time they had supped with the men since arriving at Kings Landing. Arya hated it. She hated the sounds of their voices now, the way they laughed, the stories they told. They'd been her friends, she'd felt safe around them, but now she knew that was a lie. They'd let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah.....And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father.

Sorry for the super long quote, but I always just found that passage so evocative in terms of how Arya is reappraising the world and how she views the people she idolized and loved. Imo, it was a shift in her belief system and trust in people. While she does talk to Ned, and realizes the complexities of it - that Ned did care, that the men cared but sometimes you can't do anything - some of her innocence was still shattered. And even her conversation with Ned was about how winter was coming and the world was dangerous.

And it provides an interesting contrast to Sansa. Sansa instead of - like Arya - being angry the people she idolized (Cersei, Joffrey) for their actions, pretends it didn't happen to preserve her innocent world view. 

 

[Danny-]

Wow..this thread has gone off the rails !

replying to the original posted question ,I think Sanda appeared jealous in this scene,if u watch closely u can notoce her reaction and face right before she walks away.

[Stryder the Blackheart]

I believe Sansa feels threaten by Arya. Let explain, Arya and Sansa had a rocky relationship from the begining. Sansa wanted to be a highborn lady which is the gender norm of this world. Arya on the otherhand want to be a Knight the exact opposite of Sansa or most females. Their problems really started with the Joffrey bullying Micah thing. After Arya Expose Joffrey as a coward and Sansa protected him then Lady got killed. They never solved that issue, so when Arya tells Sansa she has a list of people she plans to kill, Sansa is both shocked and worried that she may be on her list. Just look at Sansa's face when she asks Arya "who else is on your list." Ayra responds  "Most of them are dead already". While you might think its minor, keep in mind both in the show and more so in the books, Sansa thinks of Arya as a wild beast. Now while there are moments in the books were Sansa thinks to herself she misses a Arya, for the most part she still blames her for alot of what happened.

Also, is not the get Arya was very close to Jon. Jon's hold on the north relies on his supporters. With that support weakening with him going south, support for Sansa is increasing to lead to North. But of course Arya, will support Jon's reign over Sansa's if not his actions but if not out of sheer spite.

Lastly, Arya just bested Sansa's personal bodyguard in in sparring, one can argue. So indeed she feels threaten.