S. OF HOUSE STARK

Is Sansa threatened by Ayra?

135 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Illiterati said:

A realization that everyone in her family that has survived has been actualized into someone special, while she is this political expert no one will listen to....Remember that her life's dream to begin the story was to be Lady to a great house or King.  That's why she was silling to sell out her family to hold onto the possibility that dream came true.

but people learn and evolve... I sometimes feel, not just with her but mostly every character that if they made one mistake in an early arch there is no forgiveness for that; beyond forgiveness, no understanding even if they become something, arguably better or worse, but different,,,

She may become ambitious to the point of, say, wanting to be Queen but her motivations now (even if this is true) would be way different to what they were at 10 or 11 with her head full of perfect ending stories...sames goes for Arya and her dreams and just for about everyone...

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1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said:

but people learn and evolve... I sometimes feel, not just with her but mostly every character that if they made one mistake in an early arch there is no forgiveness for that; beyond forgiveness, no understanding even if they become something, arguably better or worse, but different,,,

She may become ambitious to the point of, say, wanting to be Queen but her motivations now (even if this is true) would be way different to what they were at 10 or 11 with her head full of perfect ending stories...sames goes for Arya and her dreams and just for about everyone...

But she is certainly affected by Jon's being named KitN, and Bran being a know-it-all, and Arya being Bruce Lee.  I think there is a tinge of...I wouldn't call it jealousy, but maybe a questioning of her own self worth, and if that's what they intend, she's acting it out in beautiful nuance.

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if jon snow does bend the knee to dany, i have a feeling sansa wont stand for it.

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Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

But she is certainly affected by Jon's being named KitN, and Bran being a know-it-all, and Arya being Bruce Lee.  I think there is a tinge of...I wouldn't call it jealousy, but maybe a questioning of her own self worth, and if that's what they intend, she's acting it out in beautiful nuance.

Not sure I see it the same way, but let's try.  Yes, Sansa as she is now is ambitious.  Now, ambitious to me is not a bad thing per se.  Say would I want a Chairman of the Board who was not??

I am sure, as this thread has illustrated that there is more to it than that.  If I had my brother back, a God like zombie, my sister, in my mind (Sansa) without enough political strategy able to kill just like that due to skills... I would freak out too!  Yes, she may even be jealous but, (not saying you by any means) but I tend to see the "support Sansa" or "support Arya" as sometimes for the viewers or readers a means to express our preferences re do we think a super fighter is cooler than a housewife Lady of a main castle...  If we were to take out a survey on coolness being a mother, say, one day, and even a very able administrator does not cut the mustard! (the Arya character wins no qualms!).  Funnily enough, I predict both as mothers with houses other than Stark to do the "rebuilding."  They don't have to be stuck to the kitchen sink (not that you or anyone else said that lol).

Again, not you in any way, but this forum is riddled with words such as "agency"; what matters more agency or happiness??? I consider myself a feminist (not argument aimed at you btw) but more like egalitarian.  I believe in equal rights but not in supporting females when I do not wish to support them...or in my mind they are in the wrong.  (not that you personally said that either, but generally posting to the post, my apologies if I used your reply as my platform) I have said before that, to me, a choice of career should be good for all!  It is super cool to be say a top mechanic for Ferrari, but it is just as cool to be a midwife... to give a crude example...

A bit out of topic mayhaps but had to get this out of my chest; I do believe that a lot of people love one and/or hate the other based on their different personalities and career choices.

By the way, this may have been out of topic, but going on the ongoing fan war between Arya's supporters and Sansa's ...

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I actually like both characters, and adore both actresses.  For me, it isn't an either Arya or Sansa scenario, but Arya did visibly react to finding out Sansa was given charge, and Sansa did visibly react to Arya's prowess.  Just trying to get to the underpinnings of these responses.

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Sanaa's going to betray the Stark's imo. In early drafts she did in the book. She was the person who tipped off Cersie. She kind of idolizes Cersie in the way she talks about it her. Lady dying has to symbolize something. 

Sansa had two advantages in this whole situation (Brienne who is now loyal to Arya as well, and Baelish who is threatened by Bran). She's slowly becoming insignificant. 

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7 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

Actually, for the most part, yeah. Sarcasm aside, you're actually far closer to an actual correct interpretation of her character than you were before. At least this time you're about 80% correct, whereas before you were around -37% correct.

Lol, "correct interpretation". Get off your high horse. Your opinions aren't facts bro.

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This isn't to hijack the thread, but it wasn't only Sansa's look at what Area has shown.  There was Littlefinger looking at Arya after hearing that she said that she learned how to fight being "no one".  Then there was Arya's look to Littlefinger knowing that he heard her say "no one."  Littlefinger came from Bravos. How much would he know of the "Faceless" Arya's return look seemed like she sensed danger from Littlefinger, that he may have found her out.

Sansa came to Castle Black after Jon came back from the dead.  She saw Bran return and able to reveal past events as if he was there and now see's Arya fights unlike any fighter that she's ever seen.  All those that she grew up with and in some degree with distain are now showing how formidable they have become.  Even with all that Sansa has gone through, she's beginning to recognize that each of her siblings has some great talent of their own and she is still attempting to discover her own extraordinary talent

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1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

Lol, "correct interpretation". Get off your high horse. Your opinions aren't facts bro.

For the most part, yes, they are. That other guys "interpretation" is as accurate as saying that Adolf Hitler felt a deep affinity and friendship for the Jewish people. There are justifiable opinions and then there are opinions which have no grounding in reality whatsoever.

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57 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

For the most part, yes, they are. That other guys "interpretation" is as accurate as saying that Adolf Hitler felt a deep affinity and friendship for the Jewish people. There are justifiable opinions and then there are opinions which have no grounding in reality whatsoever.

Really?  Did you just invoke Godwin's Law?

Come on man.  You can do better than that.  

 

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4 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I actually like both characters, and adore both actresses.  For me, it isn't an either Arya or Sansa scenario, but Arya did visibly react to finding out Sansa was given charge, and Sansa did visibly react to Arya's prowess.  Just trying to get to the underpinnings of these responses.

I too like both characters and actresses (though I do prefer Arya to Sansa and Maisie to Sophie),  and find both of their reactions interesting.

Arya definitely is already suspicious of Littlefinger but her expression on discovering Sansa was left in charge was harder to read.

Sansa's look after witnessing Aryas skills was also difficult to read. Im not certain whether that was deliberate from the writers or whether Soohie just failed to clearly display the emotion Sansa was feeling there. It has been interpreted so many ways already. I dont think it means she is going to betray the Starks though.

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Not sure I see it the same way, but let's try.  Yes, Sansa as she is now is ambitious.  Now, ambitious to me is not a bad thing per se.  Say would I want a Chairman of the Board who was not??

I am sure, as this thread has illustrated that there is more to it than that.  If I had my brother back, a God like zombie, my sister, in my mind (Sansa) without enough political strategy able to kill just like that due to skills... I would freak out too!  Yes, she may even be jealous but, (not saying you by any means) but I tend to see the "support Sansa" or "support Arya" as sometimes for the viewers or readers a means to express our preferences re do we think a super fighter is cooler than a housewife Lady of a main castle...  If we were to take out a survey on coolness being a mother, say, one day, and even a very able administrator does not cut the mustard! (the Arya character wins no qualms!).  Funnily enough, I predict both as mothers with houses other than Stark to do the "rebuilding."  They don't have to be stuck to the kitchen sink (not that you or anyone else said that lol).

 

7 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

I too like both characters and actresses (though I do prefer Arya to Sansa and Maisie to Sophie),  and find both of their reactions interesting.

Arya definitely is already suspicious of Littlefinger but her expression on discovering Sansa was left in charge was harder to read.

Sansa's look after witnessing Aryas skills was also difficult to read. Im not certain whether that was deliberate from the writers or whether Soohie just failed to clearly display the emotion Sansa was feeling there. It has been interpreted so many ways already. I dont think it means she is going to betray the Starks though.

I like both Arya and Sansa as well. I do like Arya more - my username is kind of a giveaway haha - but Sansa is  probably my second favourite female character and their relationship is fascinating. Tbh I end up critiquing her more because she's so interesting, whereas Dany and Cersei I just never comment on. I think there's been a lot of Arya vs. Sansa, and a lot of attacks on Sansa in general. I came into the fandom pretty late so I've just ended up running into two extremes of "Sansa is the true villain of the series!!" vs. defensive fans "Sansa is the only true Queen!" which is frustrating. 

I think the problem is that the writers haven't had Arya and Sansa sit down and talk through their perspectives and air past issues. (Jon and Sansa got several scenes doing that). I do think Sansa needs to apologize to Arya for being so blinded by Cersei/Joffrey and especially siding with them at the Trident incident. Unlike all the other remaining Starks, Arya was the one who saw the most of Sansa falling in with the Lannisters, saw Sansa at her most selfish and they were separated before Sansa outgrew that. They weren't in a good place back then.

Yes it's small potatoes after everything they've been through and Sansa was very young. But given they last left off at "I love Joffrey, I hate Winterfell! I'll lie rather than defend you/your wolf/an innocent butcher's boy!" clearing the air would be good. Even if it's just one line and "it's not big deal now", the audience needs that catharsis as much as the characters. And Arya can, idk, apologize for throwing food at Sansa without provocation? Sheep shifting her mattress? 

Unfortunately, it seems the writers have deliberately avoided Sansa and Arya having any honest conversations and threw in Sansa's ambiguous "Look" while Arya was fighting. Imo, Sophie/the writers are intentionally misdirecting the audience and want people to speculate about whether Sansa's jealous/plotting/worried/threatened. I don't think Sansa is going to betray the Starks. Unless you take the darkest interpretation of her not telling Jon about the Vale army, she's never showed a truly "evil" side. And all her other actions/intentions are positive: Making sure people have food, hugging her siblings etc. She's probably trying to trick LF before taking him down.

So "The Look" mostly seems for out of universe/audience reasons. In universe maybe she is surprised, overwhelmed and feeling a little inadequate compared to her super-powered siblings? (And kind of dumb for laughing at Arya's list). But she's the one with authority and power at WF, even if Bran and Arya have more personal power. Maybe she's trying to make LF think she's suspicious of Arya. But I think the writers are toying with us.

 

 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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8 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

 

I like both Arya and Sansa as well. I do like Arya more - my username is kind of a giveaway haha - but Sansa is  probably my second favourite female character and their relationship is fascinating. Tbh I end up critiquing her more because she's so interesting, whereas Dany and Cersei I just never comment on. I think there's been a lot of Arya vs. Sansa, and a lot of attacks on Sansa in general. I came into the fandom pretty late so I've just ended up running into two extremes of "Sansa is the true villain of the series!!" vs. defensive fans "Sansa is the only true Queen!" which is frustrating. 

I think the problem is that the writers haven't had Arya and Sansa sit down and talk through their perspectives and air past issues. (Jon and Sansa got several scenes doing that). I do think Sansa needs to apologize to Arya for being so blinded by Cersei/Joffrey and especially siding with them at the Trident incident. Unlike all the other remaining Starks, Arya was the one who saw the most of Sansa falling in with the Lannisters, saw Sansa at her most selfish and they were separated before Sansa outgrew that. They weren't in a good place back then.

Yes it's small potatoes after everything they've been through and Sansa was very young. But given they last left off at "I love Joffrey, I hate Winterfell! I'll lie rather than defend you/your wolf/an innocent butcher's boy!" clearing the air would be good. Even if it's just one line and "it's not big deal now", the audience needs that catharsis as much as the characters. And Arya can, idk, apologize for throwing food at Sansa without provocation? Sheep shifting her mattress? 

Unfortunately, it seems the writers have deliberately avoided Sansa and Arya having any honest conversations and threw in Sansa's ambiguous "Look" while Arya was fighting. Imo, Sophie/the writers are intentionally misdirecting the audience and want people to speculate about whether Sansa's jealous/plotting/worried/threatened. I don't think Sansa is going to betray the Starks. Unless you take the darkest interpretation of her not telling Jon about the Vale army, she's never showed a truly "evil" side. And all her other actions/intentions are positive: Making sure people have food, hugging her siblings etc. She's probably trying to trick LF before taking him down.

So "The Look" mostly seems for out of universe/audience reasons. In universe maybe she is surprised, overwhelmed and feeling a little inadequate compared to her super-powered siblings? (And kind of dumb for laughing at Arya's list). But she's the one with authority and power at WF, even if Bran and Arya have more personal power. Maybe she's trying to make LF think she's suspicious of Arya. But I think the writers are toying with us.

 

 

I pretty much agree with you here.  Yes, an apology mainly on Sansa's part but also perhaps on Arya's for having considered her so stupid would have been in order and I agree that the writers are trying to keep the audience in suspense especially regarding LF.  I tend to think that on a series with a huge budget like this (okay maybe not so much for wolves and dragons and battles) but certainly for takes, if the directors thought that Sophie was getting the look wrong, they would make her do it again till she got it right so personally I think what we see in the acting (for all the characters) is what they were going for.

With regard to Sansa hiding from Jon that she had sought LF's help to me is due to the fact that Jon would have refuse to accept "his" help or that Sansa certainly thought he would react like that.  There is an element of mistrust but I don't see it as mistrust in "oh, I suspect you could betray me" but more as "I am doubting your skills getting this right," if this makes any sense.  I think this is going to be true in the whole of the dynamics between all the Stark siblings and Jon but I think aside showing us that all families have issues, even the nicest families, the show runners are definitely going for LF trying to take advantage of what is not really that abnormal in even relatively healthy family dynamics.

The laughing at the list well, it does sound like a joke at first, however Sansa knows Arya is impulsive and into action more than words so I wouldn't even discard the possibility of nervous laughter.  Then when she realises, after what Bran said and after she saw her actual level of skill, OMG Arya is likely to have been serious!

I know it is arguable that Sansa got Ramsay killed in a pretty gruesome way and it is true that most of the people Arya has killed deserved it or it was necessary for her self preservation (I draw the line at the deserter from the NW who she had no quarrel with though) but again I am not going to judge a character based on one act I did not like...  At this point most main characters have killed someone.  I think the main difference with Arya is that Arya doesn't do it from pragmatic reasons or just sheer revenge but that she has taken in upon herself to rid Planetos of all undesirables (in her mind) that she can come across and I think maybe this is what frightens people, although it is fair to say that Sansa at this point is unlikely to know this.

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Seems to me she is playing the same old Sansa role.

IE creating conflict when there shouldnt be any.

 

The Smirk that LF gave her was all I needed.  She is looking "jealous" that she is now not the ONLY one Brianne has to serve.

 

Regardless of that I suspect it will mean nothing.

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I think that this season has been throwing more and more hints that Sansa is wavering in her loyalty to her own family. Whether she will turn against them, or at least grab power for herself, is a question the show has been slowly building towards. All of the remaining Starks are in some way changed, but Sansa is the one who has actually done the most to become a capable player in political intrigues. Arya can fight and sneak around, but she will never be a court lady. Bran is non-human, and Jon - aside from being a resurrected half-Targaryen - does not really want to be a king or a lord. He may go sit on the Iron Throne along with Daenerys, but it will probably be a political marriage of convenience. That would leave Sansa as a natural successor to rule the North.

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16 minutes ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

I think that this season has been throwing more and more hints that Sansa is wavering in her loyalty to her own family. Whether she will turn against them, or at least grab power for herself, is a question the show has been slowly building towards. All of the remaining Starks are in some way changed, but Sansa is the one who has actually done the most to become a capable player in political intrigues. Arya can fight and sneak around, but she will never be a court lady. Bran is non-human, and Jon - aside from being a resurrected half-Targaryen - does not really want to be a king or a lord. He may go sit on the Iron Throne along with Daenerys, but it will probably be a political marriage of convenience. That would leave Sansa as a natural successor to rule the North.

While I agree that this is what the show is portraying... I really dont think that is going to happen.

Right now Sansa is in charge of WF.  She can see Jon does not want power, doesnt care for it. Bran the same.  I think it is just Conflict made for TV.

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The fact that three people got three different reads on Sansa's reaction only tells me that she did a poor job portraying that emotion. Nothing else.

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2 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

The fact that three people got three different reads on Sansa's reaction only tells me that she did a poor job portraying that emotion. Nothing else.

Or the showrunners are being purposely opaque with her, which wouldn't surprise me a bit.

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22 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

if jon snow does bend the knee to dany, i have a feeling sansa wont stand for it.

Of course not

 

shes probably going to raise an issue to it to challenge his authority

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19 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

For the most part, yes, they are. That other guys "interpretation" is as accurate as saying that Adolf Hitler felt a deep affinity and friendship for the Jewish people. There are justifiable opinions and then there are opinions which have no grounding in reality whatsoever.

Good to know there's no point in dicussing anything with you then

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