Who could be members of the Kingsguard of King Stannis?

[Adam Yozza]

45 minutes ago, devilish said:

I am obsessed about medieval monarchy and politics and let me assure you one thing. Those who are closest to the king hold true power. The more people a family has inside the king's inner circle, the more powerful it gets. 

Devan: He's theHOTK's 5th son. He's so down the ranks that no matter how much daddy goes up he will barely ever inherit anything. Therefore his only way of carving a decent life for himself is through his services. As Stannis squire (which is a very prestigeous role) the move from squire to KG is relatively short. If Stannis knights him then surely he's good enough for KG's right? Surely Stannis won't knight someone whose not even able to protect him. 

Usually appointments are way more complicated then Im mentioning and the king will usually need persuasion from different people who are close to him. The scratch my back to sratch yours rule used to apply quite regularly in court. The Florents for example might help Davos get what he wants if in turn he helps the Florent get what they want. 

Edric's appointment will be political. His father was a king who was loved by everyone, something Stannis will never be. Considering the reputation surrounding bastards in GOT + the hornet's nest king Stannis will kick to win his throne, then having Edric around will be problematic. There again, having him killed would one hell of a taboo to break. Edric is related to both the King and his wife. Therefore an elegant way of getting rid of him would be to appoint him as KG. He's Stannis nephew so its only fitting to get a prestigeous role in court and by being KG he will have to forfeit any claim (whether legitimate or illegitimate it doesn't really matter) to his daddy's throne

Except nowhere in here are you providing a solution to the fact that Edric is 11 and Devan; IIRC; is about the same age. Most people aren't even knighted until their late teens; with a few exceptions for valour on the field of battle. Jaime was considered remarkably young for the KG when he was fifteen/sixteen. No way would anyone consider Devan or Edric viable options until a good half a decade later which is no use to Stannis. As I said, he needs a KG now not five years on.

Stannis does go give the Florent's positions of power. But after placing Imry as his Admiral, Axell as his castellan and Allester as his Hand, I doubt he'd give them much more. But, yeah, maybe he could name one of them to the KG. I think he'd likely choose someone else; but maybe. But there is no reason to pick Andrew or Lomas Estermont over someone from Renly's rainbow guard like Morrigen or Crane.

[devilish]

37 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except nowhere in here are you providing a solution to the fact that Edric is 11 and Devan; IIRC; is about the same age. Most people aren't even knighted until their late teens; with a few exceptions for valour on the field of battle. Jaime was considered remarkably young for the KG when he was fifteen/sixteen. No way would anyone consider Devan or Edric viable options until a good half a decade later which is no use to Stannis. As I said, he needs a KG now not five years on.

Stannis does go give the Florent's positions of power. But after placing Imry as his Admiral, Axell as his castellan and Allester as his Hand, I doubt he'd give them much more. But, yeah, maybe he could name one of them to the KG. I think he'd likely choose someone else; but maybe. But there is no reason to pick Andrew or Lomas Estermont over someone from Renly's rainbow guard like Morrigen or Crane.

You are assuming that all Stannis KG will be chosen on the spot. I don't think it will be the case. The war will drag on for quite some time and Stannis comes across as a cautious King. He won't surround himself with 7 KG just for the sake of it.

As said before the more voices one family have within the king's inner circle the better. Each family will try to increase its influence by adding more people around the king and limit those who are seen as friendly. This also apply to GOT. Robert B was surrounded by Lannisters who made sure to limit voices from elsewhere. In fact the king's brother in law's KG candidate was pushed aside thanks to Queen Cersei. I can see something similar happening in case of Stannis.

I gave a list of likely candidates. You might agree or disagree to it. However, my post (like most posts here) is flawed in the sense that we don't know what would happen in the alternate timeline. For example, if Stannis conquered KL then would Robb reconsider bending the knee? In my opinion, he would consider it IF Stannis play his cards right (ex sending Sansa in one piece if possible + Joffrey's head with her). Anyway, that decision would influence everything including Stannis choice for KG. The king might be pissed off with Robb in the current timeline but considering the boy's age + his father's sacrifice for his cause then he might be able to forgive and forget.

The families whom I think will get the shortest end of the stick would be the Lannisters, the Tyrells and probably the Tarlys. Randyll is married to a Florent. He should have taken his wife's family side.  

 

[Adam Yozza]

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

The families whom I think will get the shortest end of the stick would be the Lannisters, the Tyrells and probably the Tarlys. Randyll is married to a Florent. He should have taken his wife's family side.  

 

We'll agree to disagree on the matter of the KG. For the record, I have no issue with Andrew or Lomas Estermont becoming KG nor Erren Florent. I simply think there are better options; men equally loyal and more skilled from what we've seen. Horpe, Farring and Swann are good choices I 100% agree with. Edric and Devan are the only ones I think wouldn't work.

But as to the quote; Randyll should have followed his wifes family against his liege lord? If you mean after Renly's death then yeah I guess but Stannis doesn't seem to be in the habit of punishing bannermen for following their liege. He'd understand that. If you're saying the Tarly's would suffer for not following the Florents when they defected to Stannis then you can say the same about the Hightower's and, IIRC, the Rowan's. I believe both of them have Florent relatives.

[devilish]

51 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

We'll agree to disagree on the matter of the KG. For the record, I have no issue with Andrew or Lomas Estermont becoming KG nor Erren Florent. I simply think there are better options; men equally loyal and more skilled from what we've seen. Horpe, Farring and Swann are good choices I 100% agree with. Edric and Devan are the only ones I think wouldn't work.

But as to the quote; Randyll should have followed his wifes family against his liege lord? If you mean after Renly's death then yeah I guess but Stannis doesn't seem to be in the habit of punishing bannermen for following their liege. He'd understand that. If you're saying the Tarly's would suffer for not following the Florents when they defected to Stannis then you can say the same about the Hightower's and, IIRC, the Rowan's. I believe both of them have Florent relatives.

 

There's really no good or bad answer to it. I worked the way up based on how  the typical medieval court would work. There again there's too many missing variables to come out with a definitive answer. Everything rotate around 1 key factor ie Stannis capturing KL. What affect would that have? Would it be game over (Tyrells bending the knee, Starks bending the knee, half the reach bending the knee, Randyll Tarly bending the knee etc) or would it be a false down similar to the sack of KL in the dance of the dragons? I think the latter would occur if Tommen found his way from Rosby to CR. If not then probably it would have been game over as Tommen would end up in Stannis custody, Dorne would never release Myrcella and Lannister/Tyrell will be left with just a bunch of flies.

Same can be said about Randyll. It depends on his timing in bending the knee. If Randyll bends the knee as soon as Stannis captures KL then he will probably hold his lands and titles. The Florents (who'll probably get the LP of the Reach) need allies to hold the darn place and Randyll is married to one of them. If he keeps fighting though....then he's risking ending at the wrong side of Stannis fury. Loyalty to the king > loyalty to their liege

 

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 8/24/2017 at 3:41 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Except by that point Barristan was already with Dany, or at least not far off. He was already 'Arstan Whitebeard' at the very least and commited to fighting for Dany.

Except Barristan has already turned his cloak once leaving the service of the Targaryens to serve a true Baratheon. It's not a stretch to think he would do so again. He also didn't "commit" to fight for Dany until it became known he was Barristan Selmy. He made up the alias Arstan Whitebeard so he could observe her and see if she was worthy of his service before revealing himself and truly committing to her cause. TBoBB happened before this.

On 8/24/2017 at 3:41 PM, Adam Yozza said:

That would never work because the Northerners have already said they don't want to be ruled from Kings Landing; whether it be Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis or Renly.

It could indeed work. At the time Robb Stark, the North and Riverlands, thought Joffrey was Robert's true born son. So after Joff had Eddard executed the North/Riverlands agreed they'd never be ruled by who they thought had the only true Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne, Joffrey "Baratheon." Had Stannis won and saved Sansa from the Lannisters Robb could have negotiated with Stannis. Robb and his campaign was against the Lannisters and false Baratheons. I doubt he would have wanted to go to war against Stannis after he and his bannermen learned that Eddard Stark had declared Stannis his rightful King because Cersei's children were Jaime's bastards. 

A marriage to Sansa would create an alliance between Stannis and the North/Riverlands. They would have a Queen with both Stark and Tully blood on the Iron Throne. 

[SerBronnsMullet]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:19 PM, Batbob45 said:

Here some of the character that could join Stannis' KG

Balon Swann-He skilled and became KG on merit(Stannis would keep him him as KG because Balon earned it)

Brienne of Tarth-Hear me out, if Brienne was sworn to Stannis instead of Renly, Stannis might let her be in KG if she proved herself to be deserving of it.

Devan Seaworth-He would be in KG if he grows up to be a skilled knight

Selmy can be LC of KG again

Sandor Clegene-Both Sandor and Stannis were both in their brother shadow.  Both men are not great with people and rarely spare people's feelings. Stannis might have Sandor in his KG for his fighting ability and honesty(Stannis respect a person who say what on their mind).  

 

There's zero chance Stannis would name Brienne or Sandor 

[LindsayLohan]

2 hours ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

There's zero chance Stannis would name Brienne or Sandor 

Going to agree with this.  Look how Stannis treats Asha Greyjoy when she offers him her axe.  Stannis wouldn't even consider it, and moreover I think he'd harshly judge whomever brought the idea to him.

[BericDondarrion]

The only certain spot...

 

Lord Commander of the KG - Ser Richard Horpe

 

Eventually 6 more loyal knights would be added. Possibly Roland Storm unless he gets legitimized and becomes Lord Caron.

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Except Barristan has already turned his cloak once leaving the service of the Targaryens to serve a true Baratheon. It's not a stretch to think he would do so again. He also didn't "commit" to fight for Dany until it became known he was Barristan Selmy. He made up the alias Arstan Whitebeard so he could observe her and see if she was worthy of his service before revealing himself and truly committing to her cause. TBoBB happened before this.

It could indeed work. At the time Robb Stark, the North and Riverlands, thought Joffrey was Robert's true born son. So after Joff had Eddard executed the North/Riverlands agreed they'd never be ruled by who they thought had the only true Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne, Joffrey "Baratheon." Had Stannis won and saved Sansa from the Lannisters Robb could have negotiated with Stannis. Robb and his campaign was against the Lannisters and false Baratheons. I doubt he would have wanted to go to war against Stannis after he and his bannermen learned that Eddard Stark had declared Stannis his rightful King because Cersei's children were Jaime's bastards. 

A marriage to Sansa would create an alliance between Stannis and the North/Riverlands. They would have a Queen with both Stark and Tully blood on the Iron Throne. 

The point is he's already at Quarth. Arstan, IIRC, appears first in Dany's last chapter in clash which takes place somewhere either just before or just after the Blackwater. Barristan served Robert because he was Kingsguard. He was in a sworn brotherhood of knights who served for life and Robert was the new King. After Joffrey stripped him of his white cloak, he was no longer bound by oath to serve the Baratheon family. The only way I could see him returning to Stannis was if Dany turned out to be a complete whacko.

Robb had every chance to send a raven to Stannis telling him they'd bend the knee if 'x' conditions are met. He didn't. He didn't with Renly either. What was it GreatJon said? "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither' and something about "Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne?". The Riverlords might be content to bow to Stannis but the Northerners are done with the Iron Throne and the Baratheon's.

And who would marry Sansa exactly? Stannis? Stannis who is already married?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

7 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Barristan served Robert because he was Kingsguard.

Barristan will serve anyone as long as they except him. He'd still be in Tommen's Kingsguard right now had Joffrey and Cersei not dismissed him. Thinking Barristan would turn his cloak again is not unreasonable, especially with Dany not leaving Essos anytime soon. 

7 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Robb had every chance to send a raven to Stannis telling him they'd bend the knee if 'x' conditions are met. He didn't. He didn't with Renly either. What was it GreatJon said? "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither' and something about "Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne?". The Riverlords might be content to bow to Stannis but the Northerners are done with the Iron Throne and the Baratheon's.

If Stannis had won King's Landing and had Sansa as his guest it's pretty safe to assume Robb would start a negotiation with him. Robb had been negotiating with Tyrion even though Joff and Robb were never going to come to terms and hated each other. The key factor is that everything would change for Stannis had he won at Black Water. He would be in a much stronger position, one that Robb would have to acknowledge.

Eddard Stark was not done with the Baratheons and lost his life trying to put Stannis Baratheon on the Throne. I think his word would carry a lot more weight then the Greatjon's. Robb himself never ruled out Stannis. He only said he wouldn't support Renly's claim because he was the younger brother to Stannis and said he'd never bend for Joffrey. From a logical stand point Robb was never going to be able to hold the Riverlands. If he gave up his Kingship of the Trident it's not unreasonable to think he'd do the same with the North if he had a King on the Throne who'd support him in his wars against the Lannisters and Iron Born which Stannis would have.

7 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

And who would marry Sansa exactly? Stannis? Stannis who is already married?

Selyse has been unable to give Stannis a male heir, sadly one young girl with greyscale would not be enough to secure Stannis' legacy. As Lady of Dragonstone that might have been acceptable but it might not due for the King of the Seven Kingdoms who is expected to father male heirs to secure his dynasty. Add that marrying Sansa could bring the North and Riverlands back into the fold and Stannis would have to consider it. Sansa is from the North and knows about all the stuff the Greatjon talks about southern Kings/Queens not knowing. Sansa as Stannis' Queen solves all of the North's issues. Her son will be King of Westeros and she can teach him all the stupid stuff the Greatjon was talking about. Plus Stannis doesn't follow the Seven so he can marry a second wife or put Selyse aside without caring about the faith.

[Adam Yozza]

7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Barristan will serve anyone as long as they except him. He'd still be in Tommen's Kingsguard right now had Joffrey and Cersei not dismissed him. Thinking Barristan would turn his cloak again is not unreasonable, especially with Dany not leaving Essos anytime soon. 

But they did, which freed him to choose who to serve. He chose Dany when he could have gone to Stannis immediately.

If Stannis had won King's Landing and had Sansa as his guest it's pretty safe to assume Robb would start a negotiation with him. Robb had been negotiating with Tyrion even though Joff and Robb were never going to come to terms and hated each other. The key factor is that everything would change for Stannis had he won at Black Water. He would be in a much stronger position, one that Robb would have to acknowledge.

Robb would acknowledge it, start negotiating but would not bend. His bannermen would lose all respect for him if he did. The only way he would bend was if he was defeated and forced to. Robb didn't negotiate with Tyrion; he sent terms to the Lannisters offering peace if they grant the North independence knowing full well they'd refuse. And he never offered to bend the knee for Sansa when she was held by the ruthless Lannister's so why would he for the much more honourable Stannis?

Eddard Stark was not done with the Baratheons and lost his life trying to put Stannis Baratheon on the Throne. I think his word would carry a lot more weight then the Greatjon's. Except no one but the Lannisters and their supporters in King's Landing know about that and why would they talk? Robb himself never ruled out Stannis. He only said he wouldn't support Renly's claim because he was the younger brother to Stannis and said he'd never bend for Joffrey. From a logical stand point Robb was never going to be able to hold the Riverlands. If he gave up his Kingship of the Trident it's not unreasonable to think he'd do the same with the North if he had a King on the Throne who'd support him in his wars against the Lannisters and Iron Born which Stannis would have.

Robb said he wouldn't support Renly or Joffrey, indicating that he would support Stannis, true. That was before he was crowned though.

IF he gave up kingship of the Trident then he might do the same with the North. Except he didn't do that in the books, so we have no idea if he would be willing to.

Selyse has been unable to give Stannis a male heir, sadly one young girl with greyscale would not be enough to secure Stannis' legacy. As Lady of Dragonstone that might have been acceptable but it might not due for the King of the Seven Kingdoms who is expected to father male heirs to secure his dynasty. Add that marrying Sansa could bring the North and Riverlands back into the fold and Stannis would have to consider it. Sansa is from the North and knows about all the stuff the Greatjon talks about southern Kings/Queens not knowing. Sansa as Stannis' Queen solves all of the North's issues. Her son will be King of Westeros and she can teach him all the stupid stuff the Greatjon was talking about. Plus Stannis doesn't follow the Seven so he can marry a second wife or put Selyse aside without caring about the faith.

Maegor didn't care about the faith either. Yet they troubled him throughout all of his reign despite the fact that he had dragons. Cersei in the books also doesn't see the faith as a threat but we all know what happened there.

Note: I'm not saying Robb would not be open to allying with Stannis; or really anyone who will fight the Lannisters with him- case in point, he sends his mother to talk with Renly. I do not however, believe he would just give up his crown. Similarly, I don't think Stannis would be willing to ally with anyone who named themselves 'King'- case in point, he refuses to ally with Robb in Clash of Kings.

[LindsayLohan]

Something to consider:  The LC of the Kingsguard had a seat on the small council, although it was not regularly taken by Selmy.  Apparently Gerold Hightower had been a constant presence.  Stannis had been Master of Ships, and it seems he and Arryn were capable administrators (beyond the financial problems created by Baelish).  Would Barristan have thought differently of fleeing to serve Dany had he known Stannis better?