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Mad Queen Starting? Daenerys Threatening The North in the Preview


Iron Mother

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There isn't any time for the whole "Mad Queen" concept. Not going to happen. They're hinting at it for the sake of drama, nothing more. There's barely any time left for Dany to take the throne. The only option she really has is joining Jon in taking on the Nights King / White Walkers, that has to come first ultimately & probably will.  

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6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

This is not true at all. She most definitely was questioned by Ser Barristan when she crucified the masters. They even had a shot of her standing on the balcony looking over the city while ominous music played and you could hear the screams of the masters from below. But yes she is being portrayed as a heroine because she is one. She is going North to face the army of the dead with her dragons.  She is very much going to be one of the saviors of Westeros.

Questioning looks and ominous music does not mean the show is forcing us to question her decisions. You need more than that if you want the audience to truly ask questions about if Dany is fit/deserving to rule and we haven't had that. It always comes back to the fact that no matter how twisted her sense of justice may seem, it's okay because the show wants us to feel like she is right. 

I'm not denying that she will be one of the saviors of Westeros, but it will be done with sloppy writing and by a character who stands out among all the other characters by never forcing the viewer to question her merit. The writers have been forcing it down our throats for a while that Dany will be the savior Westeros needs, while making her character perform terrible actions and then glossing over them quickly and never asking the audience to think about them and what they add up regarding Dany's personality. 

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13 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

She fell in love with a man whose was a leader in a culture whose very way of life is pillaging, raping and enslaving. That always bothered me. 

yeah. i dont get how she could fall in love with him. how long were married for? a year? a few months not very long.

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15 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Those poor "innocent" slavers. I can't tell you how much I cry thinking about how they must have suffered.

The problem with those 163 slavers who where crucified is, Dany didn't judge who was to be crucified... she asked the SLAVERS to pick 163 people among themselves and send them to be crucified... Do you really think the ones who were picked were their leaders, the richest and most powerful among them... or rather the poorest, less powerful, with less influence among them?

You can bet the guys who were crucified weren't the leaders of Meereen, the ones who took the decisions during the war, but third cousins twice removed who were the poorest, less influential and powerful among the ruling caste, who didn't take any decision or gave any order during the war...

For all we know, the guys who were crucified were all asking for peace during the whole war...

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

A heroine is not necessarily a nice person.

Achilles and Ulyses are archetypal heroes, who still do brutal things.

"Hero" meant something different then... Greek heroes were excessive, larger than life, greater than mere humans in their actions and appetites, and most often represented some archetype; that was what made them heroes... Nowadays, most of them would be called "antiheroes" or "villain protagonists".

Modern heroes are supposed to be good and brave and to do something important to help somebody else.

 

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Yeah, obviously "hero" is subjective but I'd say of the major characters we know in this saga, few are real heroes. 

 

 

Heroes

Jon, Ned, Brienne (in the books at least), Bran (at least until recently 0_o), Sam, Robb, Sansa, Davos

 

Antiheroes

Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Catelyn, Robert, Jaime in the latter part of the books, Jorah, (arguably) Varys (though he's more of an antivillian perhaps), The Hound at times (also an anti villain at times), Margaery

 

Antivillians 

Stannis, Melisandre, (possibly) Varys and the Hound, Theon (he's hard to classify), Jaime is definitely this in the show

 

Villains 

Littlefinger, Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, Ramsay, and many others obviously 

 

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4 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Yeah, obviously "hero" is subjective but I'd say of the major characters we know in this saga, few are real heroes. 

 

 

Heroes

Jon, Ned, Brienne (in the books at least), Bran (at least until recently 0_o), Sam, Robb, Sansa, Davos

 

Antiheroes

Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Catelyn, Robert, Jaime in the latter part of the books, Jorah, (arguably) Varys (though he's more of an antivillian perhaps), The Hound at times (also an anti villain at times), Margaery

 

Antivillians 

Stannis, Melisandre, (possibly) Varys and the Hound, Theon (he's hard to classify), Jaime is definitely this in the show

 

Villains 

Littlefinger, Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, Ramsay, and many others obviously 

 

Just wonder why you have Dany as an anti hero....She has superhuman attributes, which would make her a heroine if she is not a villain.

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2 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Just wonder why you have Dany as an anti hero....She has superhuman attributes, which would make her a heroine if she is not a villain.

because she does decidedly unheroic things. I could even call her an anti villain but I'm not sure she is as morally twisted as the people on that list yet. 

 

I wrote that list pretty quickly too so it likely needs refining. 

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2 hours ago, princess brittany said:

yeah. i dont get how she could fall in love with him. how long were married for? a year? a few months not very long.

Well, long enough for her to have an almost full term pregnancy.  Someone else said that she was supposed to have learned a lesson from that, but I wasn't real clear on what that was supposed to be (and didn't have time to ponder it at that moment).

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22 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

Who she is threatening is wrong, the idea of her going mad isn't. Like I've said previously it's either bad characterization or they're setting us up to question if Dany is truly fit to rule. 

I know Dany thinks she wants to rule.  But I think about what that lover of hers said, Dhario??? "You are a conqueror Daenerys Stormborn." She is the kind of person to get bored with ruling.

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On 9. 8. 2017 at 5:59 AM, Lord Godric said:

It's one of the things that makes any idea of Dany surviving and ruling just so unsatisfying for me. Dany has shown some hints of madness already, at a much younger age than some of the other Targaryens. How are we supposed to assume that her reign will be any better off than any of the other mad kings? If we are left with an ambiguous ending about if anything is really any better off at the end of the series than at the beginning it would be very disappointing. While I know the ending will be bittersweet there has to be some sort of payout from this whole journey. 

D&D were pretty open about Dany not being like her father. They said she is ruthless, which is a trait that comes even with the good Targaryens (their words).

She's no more irrational than the next guy, and in spite of her ruthlessness she has never crossed the line to sadism. We know what actual mad Targaryens were like in their youth - and Dany is nothing like her father or Aerion Brightflame.

Is she harsh in her methods? Yes, but so was Aegon the Conqueror:

Quote

On the seventh day, a cloud of ravens burst from the towers of Dragonstone to bring Lord Aegon's word to the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. To the seven kings they flew, to the Citadel in Oldtown, to lords both great and small. All carried the same message: from this day forth there would be but one king in Westeros. Those who bent the knew to Aegon of House Targaryen would keep their lands and titles. Those who took up arms against him would be thrown down, humbled, and destroyed.

Quote

"Yield now," Aegon began, "and you may remain as Lord of the Iron Islands. Yield now, and your sons will live to rule after you. I have eight thousand men outside your walls."

"What is outside my walls does is of no concern to me," said Harren. "Those walls are strong and thick."

"But not so high as to keep out dragons. Dragons fly."

"I built in stone," said Harren. "Stone does not burn."

To which Aegon said, "When he sun sets, your line shall end."

[.....]

Harren and his last sons died in the fires that engulfed his monstrous fortress that night. House Hoare died with him, and so too did the Iron Islands' hold on the riverlands.

No one in the story has ever accused Aegon of being mad - and for a good reason too, because he was not. We have an account of reign that basically says that occasionaly he went on a royal progress, but otherwise he was a very introverted guy that like to be left in peace on Dragonstone and left the actual ruling to his sisters, who were not mad either, although they participated in the Field of Fire as well. Hell, one of the first things Rhaenys started working on as queen was trying to improve the life of smallfolk.

It's understandable that characters inside the story are wary of her temperament and power because their last Targaryen experience was Aerys II.

But people watching/reading the story to whom all the information is accessible should have really let go of that Mad Queen theory by now. It doesn't mean they have to like Dany or agree with her, but the accusations of madness are getting old and tired.

For that matter, there already is one Mad Queen who wants the throne, and her name is Cersei Lannister. She's the one who's actually unhinged and capable of pretty much anything. Is one Mad Queen not enough? Do we really have to get a story where both female claimants to the throne are deranged? It smells really bad of the old, demeaning misogynistic trope that women can't be trusted with power because their fragile minds can't cope and they go crazy. Dany can commit morally questionable actions without being mad.

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I think in the books Dany being a "mad queen" would be fitting. Just from the perspective of her father and her trying not to be like him? Might work?

I think they made Cersei mad because they want to help people not like her. They are trying to get the viewer on team Dany (I think) and since there are a lot of Cersei fans out there, let's make her super evil so people don't like her. I think Cersei will continue to get worse and Dany will get "better".

Or they don't know what they are doing and figure this would create drama.

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4 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I think in the books Dany being a "mad queen" would be fitting. Just from the perspective of her father and her trying not to be like him? Might work?

I think they made Cersei mad because they want to help people not like her. They are trying to get the viewer on team Dany (I think) and since there are a lot of Cersei fans out there, let's make her super evil so people don't like her. I think Cersei will continue to get worse and Dany will get "better".

Or they don't know what they are doing and figure this would create drama.

The thing is, the showrunners have stated the exact opposite. Dany is not like her father. And no, they don't lie in Inside the Episode. These clips are supposed to enlighten audience what they are going for.

Cersei is actually pretty bonkers in the books. She's narcisstic, she's paranoid, and pyromaniac. And opposed to Show Cersei she has also lost only one of her children so far. Once Myrcella and Tommen bite it I can't even imagine her reaction.

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1 minute ago, lojzelote said:

The thing is, the showrunners have stated the exact opposite. Dany is not like her father. And no, they don't lie in Inside the Episode. These clips are supposed to enlighten audience what they are going for.

Cersei is actually pretty bonkers in the books. She's narcisstic, she's paranoid, and pyromaniac. And opposed to Show Cersei she has also lost only one of her children so far. Once Myrcella and Tommen bite it I can't even imagine her reaction.

As far as Dany being mad, just talking about the books, that's all. 

Cersei is in the books but she has no real power yet. I mean, kinda does, but not to the extent of the show. It will be interesting to see if GRRM takes the same general approach as the show with her losing all her kids and going mad.

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Yes, she is a conqueror, in the same way that's Aegon I was a conqueror, who won his battles and the iron throne by raining fire on his opponents, not by asking them politely. I don't understand what is so wrong with her using dragons against an enemy army that has slaughtered her allies just a couple of days before. Sure, not all of Lannister men were villains in the same vein as Gregor Clegane and his men, but at the same time, they were on the opposing side and this is a war. Yes, Cersei controls the throne and technically, the Tyrells are sworn to the throne- but Cersei's claim to the throne is non existent, and relies on the might of Lannister army to take the control of seven kingdoms, and Tarly was swayed by Jaime's ofter of granting him the Reach, not by the legitimacy of Cersei's claim, so they have a choice of either bending the knee to the conqueror or dying.

Mirri Maz Duur was the woman who took away her child and her ability to have children, if she is to be believed, in exchange for Khal Drogo being alive as a vegetable, for revenge. I can understand her motivation, but she must have weighted the consequences of doing this to Daenerys, and whilst, being burned alive is a horrific way to go, it's wasn't unusual for those who cross higher power  to suffer an agonising death, this is ASOIAF universe, not Disney. Sansa let dogs chew Ramsay, and good for her, Robb beheaded Richard Karstark and lost the war because he couldn't keep it in his pants, Ned was honourable, and this cost him his head and made his daughters life a misery, Jon has broken his vows to the watch and has ordered a teenage boy to be hanged. That's what makes the show and the book series interesting, the fact that there are so few "true heroes" like Brianne and Davos (I'll grant you these), most of the characters in the series are complex humans with complex motivations, rather than clear cut character archetypes. GRRM said he wanted to subvert/play around with the unrealistic tropes found in most high fantasies, and that he did. That's why his characters, no matter how good and pure and noble they are at the start, become more jaded and make morally questionable choices, that doesn't necessarily make them villains, and doing the right thing doesn't always make them heroes.   

Aerys burned Stark men alive when they came to ask about their kidnapped daughter/sister, that's not a comparison to what his daughter does. 

Her marriage and love towards Drogo smack strongly of Stockholm Syndrome- she basically had the choice of adapting to her new life and surroundings or dying, and she chose life, that's very understandable. But you could also argue that her experience made her identify with the slaves  in Astapor/Yunkai/Meeren more.

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15 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

As far as Dany being mad, just talking about the books, that's all. 

Cersei is in the books but she has no real power yet. I mean, kinda does, but not to the extent of the show. It will be interesting to see if GRRM takes the same general approach as the show with her losing all her kids and going mad.

She's already mad in the books. This is the woman who regularly gives people to Qyburn the Westerosi answer to Mengele, arranges her daughter in law to be seized by religious zealots for no reason other than feeling jealous, on trumped up charges (that are even more ridiculous in the book), threatens all the alliances her father (a prize cunt himself, but at least he was a rational cunt) has painstakingly arranged, raised a complete monster of a son who she enabled to be more of a monster and neglects her younger son (that much is true for both books and show. Whilst she was very protective of him at the start, as soon as her hold on him was contested by Marg, he became a pawn to her).

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4 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

She's already mad in the books. This is the woman who regularly gives people to Qyburn the Westerosi answer to Mengele, arranges her daughter in law to be seized by religious zealots for no reason other than feeling jealous, on trumped up charges (that are even more ridiculous in the book), threatens all the alliances her father (a prize cunt himself, but at least he was a rational cunt) has painstakingly arranged, raised a complete monster of a son who she enabled to be more of a monster and neglects her younger son (that much is true for both books and show. Whilst she was very protective of him at the start, as soon as her hold on him was contested by Marg, he became a pawn to her).

She arranges her daughter-in-law to be seized not because of jealousy, because of Maggy the Frog. Because of the prophecy. She believes Margery will be the death of her, so no wonder she tries to get rid of her...
And she is an awful mom. We get that. She is selfish and not as smart as she likes to think she is. That's a big part of her problem. 
I wouldn't go as far as saying she is mad. Everything she has done there is logic behind it. She believes she could be powerful and a great leader but because she was born a woman, that can never happen. She always wanted to be like her father, but again because of gender stereotypes in the book, she can't. 
When you're mad you just do things for no reason (at least how I interpret it.) I see reason in everything she does, I don't agree with her reason, but I get it.

Mad King Aerys burned people because of voices he heard in his head... that's mad.

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21 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

As far as Dany being mad, just talking about the books, that's all. 

Cersei is in the books but she has no real power yet. I mean, kinda does, but not to the extent of the show. It will be interesting to see if GRRM takes the same general approach as the show with her losing all her kids and going mad.

The show is still an adaptation. It may not be a very faithful adaptation, but saying that it somehow utterly misses that one of the most important characters goes mad...

I'm not sure how people can read Dany's and Cersei's chapters and come to the conclusion that Cersei is the one more in touch with reality.

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12 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

She arranges her daughter-in-law to be seized not because of jealousy, because of Maggy the Frog. Because of the prophecy. She believes Margery will be the death of her, so no wonder she tries to get rid of her...
And she is an awful mom. We get that. She is selfish and not as smart as she likes to think she is. That's a big part of her problem. 
I wouldn't go as far as saying she is mad. Everything she has done there is logic behind it. She believes she could be powerful and a great leader but because she was born a woman, that can never happen. She always wanted to be like her father, but again because of gender stereotypes in the book, she can't. 
When you're mad you just do things for no reason (at least how I interpret it.) I see reason in everything she does, I don't agree with her reason, but I get it.

Mad King Aerys burned people because of voices he heard in his head... that's mad.

That's a wrong interpretation. Aerys did not have people burned just because, he had them burned because he believed they were all in some huge conspiracy against him and he trusted absolutely no one except for his pyromancers - not to his wife, his son, or servants, anybody. His reasons appeared irrational to people around him, but in his own mind they made sense.

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On 8/10/2017 at 0:21 AM, Snormund said:

Yeah, obviously "hero" is subjective but I'd say of the major characters we know in this saga, few are real heroes. 

 

 

Heroes

Jon, Ned, Brienne (in the books at least), Bran (at least until recently 0_o), Sam, Robb, Sansa, Davos

 

Antiheroes

Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Catelyn, Robert, Jaime in the latter part of the books, Jorah, (arguably) Varys (though he's more of an antivillian perhaps), The Hound at times (also an anti villain at times), Margaery

 

Antivillians 

Stannis, Melisandre, (possibly) Varys and the Hound, Theon (he's hard to classify), Jaime is definitely this in the show

 

Villains 

Littlefinger, Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, Ramsay, and many others obviously 

 

Nice list. I would also add Davos to Heroes, Walder Frey to Villains.

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