Iron Mother

Arya V Brienne!!!!!!! Appreciation Thread

49 posts in this topic

On 8/8/2017 at 11:30 AM, Lady Noble said:

I enjoyed it. I didn't sense Arya did it because she was trying to show off. She wanted to practice with the best person available and that person was Brienne. When she delivered I think her smirk was more about person satisfaction. Also, there was some magic at work with the FM and their training so I think we need to observe Arya's behaviour from now on as more than just a trained warrior... She has other (powerscaliing - I like that description) skills at her disposal. 

I agree. I loved it. I really like both characters.  She wants to practice with someone who beat the hound. I think it will benefit them both. As they learn to fight someone of different size and capabilities. Brienne has not had to fight in a while, so this is good for her to stay sharp on her fighting skills. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

But still a whole lot more realistic than the undead shuffling around, dragons incinerating people, an attractive woman really being a very old woman, an animated corpse etc.

It's a fantasy TV show based on a fantasy novel.  In both mediums 95% of what you see or read is BS in relation to reality, from the obvious stuff like Dragons to the way the people interact with each other.

I find it amusing how some readers/viewers take such umbrage to certain things and let others go.

Yes it is fantasy and no it is not more realistic.

If they had billed needle as Valerian steel magical sword that was indestructible then yes I would accept it as such.  A universe has rules even a fantasy one.

What you seem to suggest is that anything gos in a fantasy setting, badly written poorly choreographed, fast travel etc etc. Can be dismissed as part of the fantasy setting.

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1 minute ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Yes it is fantasy and no it is not more realistic.

If they had billed needle as Valerian steel magical sword that was indestructible then yes I would accept it as such.  A universe has rules even a fantasy one.

What you seem to suggest is that anything gos in a fantasy setting, badly written poorly choreographed, fast travel etc etc. Can be dismissed as part of the fantasy setting.

If it's entertaining, it works.  Because that's all TV shows are.  Entertainment.

As for fast travel, surely that's to cut out the tedium of the journey?  The books are no different.  Some journeys are fast, some are slow.  The show is the same.  Although people don't seem to grasp that in many cases months are passing between certain episodes.

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2 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

If it's entertaining, it works.  Because that's all TV shows are.  Entertainment.

That's what it comes down to did you find the fight entertaining or not.  I did others did not, the reasons give often are miss match in size equipment experienc.

It's true you will enjoy the show more by not focusing on the minor details, however the more the show asks us to suspend our disbelief the less entertaining it becomes.

The trick with fantasy is to make us believe.  To nit pick fast travel is for convenience and not tedium.

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9 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

But still a whole lot more realistic than the undead shuffling around, dragons incinerating people, an attractive woman really being a very old woman, an animated corpse etc.

It's a fantasy TV show based on a fantasy novel.  In both mediums 95% of what you see or read is BS in relation to reality, from the obvious stuff like Dragons to the way the people interact with each other.

I find it amusing how some readers/viewers take such umbrage to certain things and let others go.

Nah, that's a typical (and very common) fallacy. Not sure if there's a name for it, but there ought to be.

There are a number of things that, as part of the premise of the show or book, are different from reality - but that's not a reason to accept everything as part of that premise. Particularly not things that go against previously established parts of the altered reality of that premise, or things that the work in question does not explain in any way. Apart from these deliberate additions or changes, the rest of the show should try its best to not break willing suspension of disbelief.

Examples of things that are part of the premise of the show are Direwolves, Dragons, White Walkers and a number of other fantastical beasts. It's the unique nature of Valyrian Steel and it's the (show-only) notion that people can be inherently fireproof (a number of other things, too, obviously).

Things that are NOT part of that premise include: Armies and fleets seemingly teleporting from one end of the world to the other, people not mentioning important information to their family because it has to be revealed at the right dramatic moment or small girls directly blocking the blows of one of the strongest warriors in the world using a tiny rapier-like sword*

*other than a few choreography-based goofs like this, I found the Arya vs Brienne fight just fine: Brienne clearly underestimates Arya, and apart from the initial surprise factor, I didn't feel she "beat" Brienne (Arya does end getting hoofed in the chest after all).

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

But still a whole lot more realistic than the undead shuffling around, dragons incinerating people, an attractive woman really being a very old woman, an animated corpse etc.

It's a fantasy TV show based on a fantasy novel.  In both mediums 95% of what you see or read is BS in relation to reality, from the obvious stuff like Dragons to the way the people interact with each other.

I find it amusing how some readers/viewers take such umbrage to certain things and let others go.

I hate when people use this reasoning. It is an extremely lazy reasoning which is just based on the genre of a book or show. None of the good fantasy novels do random ass pulls. Great fantasy writers explain and set their fantasy elements. They do not suddenly reveal it at the last moment.

In all your examples

 

1) The undead shuffling around. This was set from scene 1 of the book and show. Then slowly the rules and elements around the undead was established. So it is good story telling. Now for example, if they never showed the undead or spoke about them, but then when everyone is trying to stab jon and suddenly an undead comes and saves him, THEN it is poor story telling

 

2) Similarly for dragons. Talks about dragons are right from the first few chapters. Stories of past dragons. Then we see the eggs, then we see the dragons hatching and then growing older. Now if instead of that, there were never any mention of dragons, and then when Dany was in trouble, suddenly a dragon appeared from nowhere and saved her, THEN it is poor story telling

 

3) Hints about Melisendre and her age and origins have been in the book and show from ages and many were able to guess that she is way older than she looks

 

A fantasy element does not mean that you can make up whatever you want. Otherwise why not have Sansa suddenly be able to warge a giant and kill everyone else and win tomorrow? Would you enjoy such a story?

 

None of the great fantasies work on your logic at all. Name any great fantasy or sci-fi plot and see how they work. These stories set their rules up front. They mention how the rules and laws of those universe works. And then they build the story between those guidelines. They don't pull up things randomly or contradict their own rules. Even the extreme magical elements are mentioned up front or hinted at or foreshadowed.

Ass pulls are just that and have no place in a good fantasy story

One of the best examples of this is The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka (although not strictly a fantasy). The fantasy element in it is that the main character wakes up one morning to find he is transformed into a giant insect. A completely fantastical occurrence. However the rest of the story is on how he and his family deals with his transformation in the real world. The consequences are what is explored with realistic results. And what makes the story a classic is not the premise, but the way realistic consequences are explored (along with the symbolism)

From Dune to LOTR, you will see great stories are ones which explore realistic story lines in fantastical settings

Edited by Banjo

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

But still a whole lot more realistic than the undead shuffling around, dragons incinerating people, an attractive woman really being a very old woman, an animated corpse etc.

It's a fantasy TV show based on a fantasy novel.  In both mediums 95% of what you see or read is BS in relation to reality, from the obvious stuff like Dragons to the way the people interact with each other.

I find it amusing how some readers/viewers take such umbrage to certain things and let others go.

I hate this line of response and you should stop using it. It's brought up whenever anything remotely strange happens in the show and it's never convincing or appropriate. Just because you include dragons and other fantastical elements in a story, doesn't mean you can do anything and still have it make sense to people. Arya is meant to be an ordinary child that has learned certain skills. Some of those skills might be magical in nature, but, as far as I understand, they're not meant to make her an invincible super hero that could arm wrestle the Mountain if she wanted to. 

Edit: It was not my intention to add to a pile-on here. I didn't see all the responses you were getting until after I published mine.

Edited by Andrés Garcia

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Just seen all the replies and you're wrong.  The fact is this is a fantasy and ALL the characters are way better than what would be realistic in almost any situation here.  And that applies to show and book.  The best example of all was Syrio besting five Gold Cloaks.  Realistically that would never happen, no matter how good a swordsman Syrio was meant to be.  But it doesn't matter, because it's meant to be fantasy and unrealistic abilities are the norm.  Even happens with the "mind" as Tyrion has this amazing gift to take imperfect information and figure out the answer in the most unrealistic ways time and time again.

The most ironic thing is Brienne herself, who is completely unrealistic a character.  Apparently she's in the top five or six strongest warriors in Westeros.  Have to suspend my disbelief for that one.  But I think it's fine to have her like that because it's only a story.

 

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I enjoyed it. Brienne had someone to fight with. Arya showed her skills. It was entertaining.

Plus, they were just "playing". It was good.

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