Cron

Was Episode 704 The Best Ever? If Not, What Was?

32 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, Cron said:

I could write a long, complex answer to your question, but I'll try to summarize.

As GRRM has basically said, "the show is the show, and the books are the books."

And I strongly agree with him.  I have an opinion that many people (not necessarily all) who dislike the show are regularly comparing it to the books, and I try to keep that to a minimum.  Are the books better, overall, to me? Sure.  Do I allow that to get in the way of engjoying the good stuff the show DOES have to offer? No.

Next, I note that even though even I nitpick the show (as I did when I started this thread) the good in the show still WAY outweighs the bad to me.  And I like to live my life focusing on positivity a lot more than negativity.  So even if I nitpick some aspects of the show, the main focus for me is still on the stuff the show DOES do well, and there's a lot of that.

Even if a scene has some fundamental flaws, I can still enjoy the good stuff in it. Perfect example: Battle of the Bastards.  Okay, Jon should have been dead about 100 times over, or more.  So stipulated, and I'll be the first to say it.  Having said that, the scene was STILL an awesome spectacle to behold, with lots of great action.  Now, if the entire series devolved into stories based on such highly improbable events, yeah, that would be a problem, and I might even stop watching (probably not, though, cuz I've got so much time invested I'll stick it out to the end no matter what, now), but I don't think it's even close to that.

Note also (still answering your question) that I'm REALLY enjoying a lot of the long term payoffs that we are getting this season, which WERE set up by GRRM over 20 years ago.  Do you know how long I've been waiting to see Dany land at Westeros? A LONG time, and this season we got it.  Same with Arya's return to Winterfell, and other stuff, too.  These are major events that I've been waiting a long time to see, and I love finally seeing them on-screen, even if it is quite likely that in the books things will happen somewhat differently.

Also, there are some things in the show that NO author, no matter how good he is, can ever match.  Exhibit A:  The Field of Fire 2.  No matter how great an author GRRM is, I'm sorry, but he can never match what we SAW on-screen during that battle 10 days ago.  And that's no slight against GRRM.   He has the greatest character development I've ever read (and believe me, I've read a LOT of books), but he can never match what we SAW, and it was simply awesome.

Now, having said all that, do I wish the show had followed the books more closely?  Sure.  If I was the showrunner, the show WOULD have followed more closely.  But that's not what we got, and that's okay, I can live with it, cuz the show gets a LOT more right than wrong, in my opinion.

There's an old saying: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  The show is not perfect, but some of what it delivers is astounding, and way beyond what I could have reasonably expected when I first heard the show was in production (I had already read the first four books, years earlier, but ADWD had not yet been published, of course)

So, anyway, that's the short answer. HARRR!!!!

Yeah all the killing keeps me entertained enough to outdo all the other stuff that is falling apart with the show.

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28 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Yeah all the killing keeps me entertained enough to outdo all the other stuff that is falling apart with the show.

Um...

(a) That's not what I said.  AT ALL.

(b) Have you read the books?  Cuz I'm kind of guessing you haven't.  Look, I'm no fan of violence for the sake of violence, but...have you read the books???  And did you see the first 5 or 6 seasons of the show???  When is it exactly that you think something changed??

I mean, I'm no fan of violence for the sake of violence, but some of the most violent stuff we've seen is book-canon!!  And has been around since Season One!  I'm honestly curious about this:  At what point do you, apparently, believe the show came off the rails, either as compared to previous seasons of the show and/or the books themselves?

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58 minutes ago, Cron said:

Um...

(a) That's not what I said.  AT ALL.

(b) Have you read the books?  Cuz I'm kind of guessing you haven't.  Look, I'm no fan of violence for the sake of violence, but...have you read the books???  And did you see the first 5 or 6 seasons of the show???  When is it exactly that you think something changed??

I mean, I'm no fan of violence for the sake of violence, but some of the most violent stuff we've seen is book-canon!!  And has been around since Season One!  I'm honestly curious about this:  At what point do you, apparently, believe the show came off the rails, either as compared to previous seasons of the show and/or the books themselves?

i have read the books twice. 

From season 4 and forward has been going downhill fast.

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2 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

i have read the books twice. 

From season 4 and forward has been going downhill fast.

I've read all the books several times.  It's no surprise that the story telling went down hill from that point because AFFC is a poor back (that would have translated terribly to TV) and ADWD is just downright awful.  After that there is no source material....

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9 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I've read all the books several times.  It's no surprise that the story telling went down hill from that point because AFFC is a poor back (that would have translated terribly to TV) and ADWD is just downright awful.  After that there is no source material....

Why do you feel they would be terribly translated to tv?

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21 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I've read all the books several times.  It's no surprise that the story telling went down hill from that point because AFFC is a poor back (that would have translated terribly to TV) and ADWD is just downright awful.  After that there is no source material....

AFfC and ADwD are neither poor nor awful "backs" <sic>. They are both very good and are easily the most well written in the series from a literary standpoint, some annoying phrase repetition notwithstanding. They are just not as fast-paced or action-packed as the first 3 books, but they serve well as the slowed-down middle act of a 3-act play.  Their importance will certainly be apparent when the series is finished and read as a whole. Sorry, but only the impatient or shallow reader thinks these books are bad. 

They may be harder to translate to the TV screen than the first 3 books, but I think D&D did a good job of cutting & consolidating to get them to fit into seasons 5 & 6 of GoT, despite what the show haters say.

 

Edited by A Bong of Ice and Fire

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1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Why do you feel they would be terribly translated to tv?

A TV show such as AGOT needs to keep the pacing high and more importantly should increase the pacing per series to a mind blowing climatic conclusion.  The books need to be the same really.  The second half of ASOS was breath taking and the show adaptation was too.  If you then slow it down on the show to the meandering pace of those books (which would have taken 3 or 4 seasons if adapted closely)?  People would lose interest and viewing figures would drop.  People were already complaining how long it was taking Dany to get to Westeros.  Just imagine if they'd had another 3 or 4 seasons of it.

The pacing of the books is really poor.  Primarily because GRRM didn't think through the 5 year plan well enough.  That really shows in AFFC and ADWD and would have really shown up in the TV show.  Of course if the TV show had access to all the source material in advance it would have been able to plan itself better also.  It was obvious just how frustrated HBO were that GRRM didn't get TWOW out in time to be adapted.

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1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

i have read the books twice. 

From season 4 and forward has been going downhill fast.


I started watching again after dropping it about 3 years ago and the difference is ridiculous, it used to adapt the books pretty well but the entire tone of the show changed when they began running out of source material, the dialogue between characters is getting worse and the actual writing is just nonsensical, it's like they have an entirely different target audience in mind and it's not hard to see why.  Honestly I think the showrunners are bored of it now and just want to get to the climax with as many wow moments as possible to keep the audience watching. 

Basically just watching it as a curiosity now which is sad because it's ultimately still going to spoil the ending of the books. 

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1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:


I started watching again after dropping it about 3 years ago and the difference is ridiculous, it used to adapt the books pretty well but the entire tone of the show changed when they began running out of source material, the dialogue between characters is getting worse and the actual writing is just nonsensical, it's like they have an entirely different target audience in mind and it's not hard to see why.  Honestly I think the showrunners are bored of it now and just want to get to the climax with as many wow moments as possible to keep the audience watching. 

Basically just watching it as a curiosity now which is sad because it's ultimately still going to spoil the ending of the books. 

I believe the book will end very diffrently so i wouldnt be worried about being spoiled at all.

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[mod] Stick to topic, please. The individual merits or otherwise of any of the books are not the topic: the merits or otherwise of this one episode of the show is. [/mod]

Edited by mormont

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3 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

i have read the books twice. 

From season 4 and forward has been going downhill fast.

Okay. I respect your opinion, of course, but unless I got confused, it sounds like you don't like all the killing in the show.

But...the books have a lot of killing, too.  A LOT.

My goodness, Arya is a little girl who kills people, and she's one of the main characters and quite possibly the most popular book character right from the beginning!

I do respect your opinion, but I confess I don't really understand it, especially if you've read the books twice and enjoyed them.

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As of yesterday, for me, the best episode EVER is Season 7, Ep. 6!!!!  F***ING EPIC!!!!!!!!!!!

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