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Jon should bend his knees.


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5 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Done Nothing to earn her rule? Her entire justification for staying in Essos when things got tough was that there would be no reason for anyone in Westeros to accept her rule if she couldn't demonstrate her fitness in essos. By the time she left she had shutdown the greater part of the slave trade, liberated millions, and even left a part of her army behind with the sole purpose to smooth the transition to self rule without backsliding to slavery. In addition she has turned the Dothraki towards a different purpose than their usual city sacking, slave raiding and general mass rapine and pillaging - itself a pretty big achievement.  5 seasons of Dany's storyline has been about her learning and doing the things that would make her a good ruler - what show were you watching?  

All that for nothing... to understand in the end that there is a difference between Essos and Westeros and that one thing that worked in Essos, not necessarily would work in Westeros. It seems that her army alone (and, of course, her birthright) should persuade everyone to accept her as a ruler.
When I was reading the books and watching the show, I found myself thinking that no matter how badly I want her to finally go to Westeros, I really think that she should rule united Essos, since there are few more cities that prosper on slavetrade, which doesn't bother her anymore so much it seems. As it came to that- she didn't demostrate fitness to rule in Essos. She demostrated that she is fierce and cunning as well, but I am not sure those are qualities are good for a ruler.

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9 minutes ago, Gala said:

Frankly, there won't be anything to rule if the North falls. Dany and Cersei are playing the game of thrones, Jon is not.
I think that both of these queens and the whole realm do not really understand the threat.
I presume that is precisely the reason why the northerners are different, they seem to be happy to live their lives in the North (Ned did), the Starks are not made to play the game of thrones - they are too good and too decent for that crap. After all mostly only the northerners help the Night's Watch and among the northern families it is still an honour to be a brother of the NW. The rest of the realm considers NW as the place for unwanted people (criminals, people like Sam).
To be fair, in the big picture - threat in the South (aka Cersei) is nothing comparing to the NK and his army and Sansa didn't see the AoD, so to her that particular threat is unrealistic one as well. I also doubt that Lannisters army would even be able to deal with the northerners during winter on their territory.
Jon came and warned Dany of a bigger threat, now he should go back and prepare and let those two to deal with their quarrel.

It's not a question of the NK being a bigger threat than Cersei, it's a question of the NK being such a big threat that its going take all of Westeros united under a strong leader to defeat it, and Dany is a better candidate than Cersei to marshall such an effort. Cersei is relevant because as she is likly to undermine rather than strengthen the defense against the NK.

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2 minutes ago, Gala said:

All that for nothing... to understand in the end that there is a difference between Essos and Westeros and that one thing that worked in Essos, not necessarily would work in Westeros. It seems that her army alone (and, of course, her birthright) should persuade everyone to accept her as a ruler.
When I was reading the books and watching the show, I found myself thinking that no matter how badly I want her to finally go to Westeros, I really think that she should rule united Essos, since there are few more cities that prosper on slavetrade, which doesn't bother her anymore so much it seems. As it came to that- she didn't demostrate fitness to rule in Essos. She demostrated that she is fierce and cunning as well, but I am not sure those are qualities are good for a ruler.

But everyone from Essos that is with her in westeros have the opposite view, former slaves most of all. And to say that she has not tried to change her approach WRT Westeros when she has brought in Westerosi advisers at the highest levels and made her hand one of the most experienced figures in Westeros seems a tad unfair.

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44 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

It's not a question of the NK being a bigger threat than Cersei, it's a question of the NK being such a big threat that its going take all of Westeros united under a strong leader to defeat it, and Dany is a better candidate than Cersei to marshall such an effort. Cersei is relevant because as she is likly to undermine rather than strengthen the defense against the NK.

Well, that's why I wrote that Jon should leave and go back to the North to prepare, while Dany deals with Cersei, because the North helping Dany against Cersei is equally rediculous right now, as leaving Cersei behind.

37 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

But everyone from Essos that is with her in westeros have the opposite view, former slaves most of all. And to say that she has not tried to change her approach WRT Westeros when she has brought in Westerosi advisers at the highest levels and made her hand one of the most experienced figures in Westeros seems a tad unfair.

Foreign former slaves, strangers that have absolutely different culture, traditions and for all they could know morals, are not exactly the best indication for Westerosi. Taking Westerosi advisors was generally a smart move, it would be truly idiotic to try to conquer and to rule people she know nothing about- and she wants to rule.

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14 minutes ago, Gala said:

Well, that's why I wrote that Jon should leave and go back to the North to prepare, while Dany deals with Cersei, because the North helping Dany against Cersei is equally rediculous right now, as leaving Cersei behind.

Exactly.

Nothing is to be gained by either party in debating the whole matter over and over again. Their actually both losing time and resource by insisting on this battle of wills.

To be fair though, even if Jon has already pledge the North's loyalty and support to her claim (can't remember if he already did) it is wise of her to show a little bit of caution.

Realistically, they can't be plain comrades (really rooting for this solution) by virtue of a few days of interaction, they can either:

a.) marry (if GRRM/D&D would like to follow the fairy-tale story type)

b.) exchange valuable resource ( e.g. like theon being fostered by the starks to prevent greyjoy rebellion)

Jon is big on equality per his experience with the wildings so a fair and equal trade would be a more persuasive argument than bending the knee.

It doesn't always have to be a zero-sum game. There surely is a way that both parties can win.

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13 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, but once you acknowledge, that Dany is likely to lose by herself against the WWs, or even if she prevails against them in some manner, but the WWs would inflict significant damage on her kingdom, then I'd submit the best play for Jon is not to bend, if we're assuming here that all he cares about is maintaining Northern independence or his crown (and I’m not saying that should be the only factor in reality), while defeating the Others.

Putting a little analytical structure over this:

Let's say both Jon and Dany know the others payoffs for taking certain course of action. And let's say Jon makes a decision about whether to not bend or to bend and Dany knows that decision (ie its in her information set) and then, after Jon, she has to take an action.

Let's say Jon's action set is bend or not bend [B,NB]

And let's say Dany's action set is to help or not to help [H, NH]

Supposing Jon plays NB and then Dany plays NH. If that happens then let’s say Jon's payoff is 0 because everyone in the North, including Jon, dies. And let’s say Dany's payoff is c. It's a bit higher than 0, but only a little bit higher because even if she prevails against the WW’s by herself it’s likely to come at significant cost to her people and to her kingdom.

So we have:
NB,NH -> 0, c

Supposing Dany however decides to play H to Jon's NB. Will say Jon's payoff is j1 and Dany's payoff is d2.

Then we have:
NB,H->j1,d2

Now supposing Jon plays B and Dany's accordingly plays H. In this scenario Jon gets j2 and Dany gets d3. 

We then have::
B,H->j2,d3.

Now finally let's suppose Jon plays B and Dany plays NH. In this case Jon's payoff is at least 0 and probably a bit lower cause he gets screwed and he and the North still gets creamed, accordingly will say it’s like -1 and Dany gets c (similar to when Jon played NB). So we have:

B,NH->-1,c

Now Jon's payoff structure is j1>j2>0>-1

Now if you think d2>c, making Dany’s payoff structure look like d3>d2>c then best play for Jon to make is not to bend. And the reason is because Dany is still better off helping, than not helping. And in fact, her threats of not helping aren’t credible (again, I’m assuming full information and rationality, in the sense both parties are looking to maximize their payoffs).

I’m not saying this is “the” model of the situation here. I’m rather suggesting it’s “a” model. And considering this, it’s not clear to me that Jon does have to bend.

This is just plain amazing. 

Glad someone can be as objective and logical when it comes to GoT.

 

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9 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Jon cannot bend the knee even if he wanted to. The Northern lords won't accept it. He may have overruled them on a few minor matters, but Jon has unparalleled experience with what happens if you ignore your lords (officers of the watch) on something truly important. "For the Watch" becomes "For the North".

If Jon dies or gets ousted, there's no-one else who believes strongly enough that the Others are the true threat - and by the time they realize it, it'll be too late.

Jon has one option only, and that is to leave Dragonstone with some kind of help, but Northern independence intact. Currently he's getting Dragonglass, which is good, even better would be getting an army and some dragons, but he cannot give Dany the North, since it's not his to give - it's not the kind of King that Jon is, and even if it was, he knows it won't work. His hold on power is tenuous at best, being a bastard, a former Night's Watch member etc - it would be very easy indeed to challenge his rulership of the North. Bending the knee to a foreign invader, the daughter of the Mad King and her screaming horde of rapists and pillagers, would most likely be enough for at least some of the Lords to question if this really is the King they want.

True, but unlike in the watch, it's quite possible the other starks would rally behind Jon's decision even if not happy about it.  Of course, we all know that Bran would interject with what he knows and that would change the entire dynamics. 

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7 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Done Nothing to earn her rule? Her entire justification for staying in Essos when things got tough was that there would be no reason for anyone in Westeros to accept her rule if she couldn't demonstrate her fitness in essos. By the time she left she had shutdown the greater part of the slave trade, liberated millions, and even left a part of her army behind with the sole purpose to smooth the transition to self rule without backsliding to slavery. In addition she has turned the Dothraki towards a different purpose than their usual city sacking, slave raiding and general mass rapine and pillaging - itself a pretty big achievement.  5 seasons of Dany's storyline has been about her learning and doing the things that would make her a good ruler - what show were you watching?  

Ruling in Essos does nothing to earn her rule in Westeros. All the lessons she has learned have been completely thrown out of the window, she doesn't even understand why she can't just go and attack King's Landing and kill everyone inside of the city. Without her dragons, Dany is nothing. And she would not be near the throne in Westeros without them. That is just luck of the draw, that is not proving she is worthy of being queen, that is not winning over the hearts and minds of the people and houses of Westeros. You're right that the writers want us to feel like 5 seasons of Dany's storyline has been about her learning to rule, but the fact is that is not true for her character. She is still resting on the same exact notion that Viserys was in Season 1, that is "I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms." There has been absolutely no development there no matter how much the writers want to force us to believe that. 

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On 8/7/2017 at 10:39 AM, Heavy D said:

Jon has no more excuses.  Queen Daenerys agreed to help.  Jon should bend his knees and apologize to Dany for being stubborn.  It's time to clear the rubble in the north that is Sansa.  Bend your knees, Jon.

Both of them!? That would be a wee bit over the top in my humble estimation.

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On 8. 8. 2017 at 9:30 PM, Capo Ferro said:

Jon himself was in Daenerys's position as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  He needed the help of the (far) North, he saw it as part of his duty to protect even the Wildlings because they are within the world of men.  He let them behind the wall -- gave them his protection -- without requiring them to bend the knee.  

I think the show and books both are leading us to the point where Daenerys is forced to recognize that her right to rule can't come from birthright it can come only from the fact that she protects her people and so they consent to her rule.

Amen. If she helps and saves the North, they will be quite happy to acknowledge her as their queen. So far, she's just another Southron with an overblown ego.

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8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Amen. If she helps and saves the North, they will be quite happy to acknowledge her as their queen. So far, she's just another Southron with an overblown ego.

I'm honestly thinking this whole thing won't even matter by the end of the season.  Dany will realize the White Walker threat is real (perhaps they even get past the Wall), and her and Jon will both realize that "bending the knee" is irrelevant until they defeat the White Walkers.

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The North needs to be free.  Why does Daenerys even want it anyway?  At present, I get the feeling that if Jon was to submit to her as queen, she would demand he send his armies south immediately.

She did not learn to rule in Essos.  She was horrible at it.  All she knows how to do is to burn people with fire.  That is not a long-term effective governing strategy.

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Dornish prince Maron bent his knees when he married Daenerys. 

I can see Jon did same thing for this Daenerys. 

They can rule together as king and queen, sure, but one of them has to be the ruler. The other one is a consort. 

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1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

They can rule together as king and queen, sure, but one of them has to be the ruler. The other one is a consort. 

I don't think that's how a marriage between two monarchs works. 

Particularly when they both need something the other has. 

Jon needs dragon glass and dragons. 

Dany needs allies if she hopes to unify the 7 kingdoms again. 

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4 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

Ruling in Essos does nothing to earn her rule in Westeros. All the lessons she has learned have been completely thrown out of the window, she doesn't even understand why she can't just go and attack King's Landing and kill everyone inside of the city. Without her dragons, Dany is nothing. And she would not be near the throne in Westeros without them. That is just luck of the draw, that is not proving she is worthy of being queen, that is not winning over the hearts and minds of the people and houses of Westeros. You're right that the writers want us to feel like 5 seasons of Dany's storyline has been about her learning to rule, but the fact is that is not true for her character. She is still resting on the same exact notion that Viserys was in Season 1, that is "I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms." There has been absolutely no development there no matter how much the writers want to force us to believe that. 

Again it feels like we are watching different shows, because in the one I am watching she has heeded advice from Westerosi advisers at every point, even after a string of severe reverses she heeded Jon's advice and attacked the army instead of the Red Keep (She even says Red keep twice, which is different from claiming as you do that she wanted to kill everyone in Kings landing). Saying she is nothing without her Dragons is like saying Usain Bolt wouldn't be as famous if he was paraplegic, the Dragons are a core part this character's identity, and in this story it was destiny not luck that has her as mother of Dragons (unless you are claiming that anyone else could have wandered into Drogo's funeral Pyre and emerged with Dragons). There definitely is a dramatic theme being played between Jon the reluctant ruler and Dany the ruler who believes it is her birthright, but in a world of hereditary monarchy and titles  you do understand that the legitimacy of all power stems from birthright, even Jon's appointment rests on the notion that he has Stark blood, and the whole speculation , now confirmed that he is also Targaryen is again in this world resting upon the notion that the accident of your birth entitles you to power.  So of course Dany believes she was born to rule the 7 kingdoms, what has developed is that she believes her claim should be supported because she has demonstrated she would be good at it. A story where this character instead came to believe that she should go off and meditate until she found enlightenment would be an entirely different story, and would have nothing to do with a story about a great struggle for power occuring against the background of an existential threat. Your objections do seem to be an unreasoning animus against the character, because they could only be answered by the character being an entirely different character, DDS - Dany derangement syndrome.

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