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Jon should bend his knees.


Jeeves

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On 8/8/2017 at 7:44 AM, Mon ami said:

Jon should have bent his knees when he first met Daenerys.  He's out of excuses.  If I were Dany, I would let Jon and the north battle the white walkers on their own for a while.  Then let's see if that shithead Yohn Royce, Sansa, and Petyr Baelish still resists.  I would not help Jon unless he bends the knee in front of all the north to see.

That's right.  I would let them fight the Others and the wights on their own.  It won't take long for those damned Starks to send a raven asking for help.  The show (Benioff & Weiss) have picked a side on this argument and they have chosen to let the Starks get away with too much pride.  I hate that.  Those proud Starks and Jon deserve to get wighted.

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4 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

That's right.  I would let them fight the Others and the wights on their own.  It won't take long for those damned Starks to send a raven asking for help.  The show (Benioff & Weiss) have picked a side on this argument and they have chosen to let the Starks get away with too much pride.  I hate that.  Those proud Starks and Jon deserve to get wighted.

yes let the north fight and die thus making the army of the dead even more massive. Brilliant plan my friend. Right now the army of the dead is the largest in westeros numbering around a hundred thousand and they fight in winter where the dothraki will freeze due to not being winter fighters. Really if the north falls then the army of the dead will be too massive to beat. And by the way why is it that jon refusing to bend the knee is his stupid pride yet dany who doesn't need the north for her conquest and unlike the north who have suffered under targ rule and other southern rulers dany has no reason other then (it's mine and I deserve it by birth right even though my family lost the throne and I have spent my entire adult life away from westero's. So please tell me why jon gets the hate yet dany is blameless

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7 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

First of all, letting the north fight the others alone means that the army of undead just gets even bigger. 

Secondly... Jon's already a wight. 

It won't take long for Sansa and Jon to bend their stiff knees.  Jon is a shitty battle commander.  He would have lost his past battles if Stannis and Littlefinger had not rescued his hairy ass.  Daenerys should lead the armies of the living against the NK. 

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2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I don't think that's how a marriage between two monarchs works. 

Particularly when they both need something the other has. 

Jon needs dragon glass and dragons. 

Dany needs allies if she hopes to unify the 7 kingdoms again. 

So one is queen of six kingdoms, and the other is king in the north?

There is only one iron throne. It is not a love seat. They can not sit together on it. 

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The north will be the area that sits in the path of the WWs.  They're most vulnerable.  Jon should know this and set his pride aside.  Dany is actually being generous.  She allowed Jon to mine the dragon glass.  No other ruler would allow a rebel to do such a thing.  Jon is the one being pig-headed. 

Jon had no qualms disregarding the opinions of his followers before.  Why choose this time to put their opinions ahead of their survival?  Which is stupid by the way.  It is poor writing on the part of HBO or it's just another example of David Benioff, DB Weiss, and Bryan Cogman trying to win over Jon's fans.

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Jon was a fool for going there in person to begin with. He should have sent Davos as an Emissary and invite her North if needed under guest rights etc. Going there in person made him a hostage, Tyrion purposely misled Jon to get him into Dany's hands. it was stupid and was written in to get a story going with them. Dany is the foreigner, she has or had the stacked deck in her hands (massive fighting force), she would have done better to be "helpful" to gain some trust in her family name where her father and eldest brother ruined it.

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8 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

It won't take long for Sansa and Jon to bend their stiff knees.  Jon is a shitty battle commander.  He would have lost his past battles if Stannis and Littlefinger had not rescued his hairy ass.  Daenerys should lead the armies of the living against the NK. 

I agree that jon screwed up in the battle of the bastards and anyone who disagrees on that is kidding themselves. That said the battle at the wall was not his fault. He wanted to seal the gates but sir alister refused and sir allistar made the plans for it. Jon was fighting with very little men and fighting hardened wildlings. He actually did very well at the battle at the wall. I do think he learned his lesson from the battle of the bastards and won't make the same mistake twice. And again why is it that you act like dany is not being proud as well. She could easily say okay we will hold off fighting eachother until the true enemy is beaten. Instead (no you want help bend the knee).  You can't say jon is being stubborn unless you say dany is too

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13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

So one is queen of six kingdoms, and the other is king in the north?

There is only one iron throne. It is not a love seat. They can not sit together on it. 

Technically, as far as Westeros goes...

Cersie is Queen of Three Kingdoms. (Stormlands, The Reach, and the Westerlands)

Jon is King of Two Kingdoms (The North and The Vale)

Euron is King of One Kingdom (The Iron Islands)

Dany is only Queen of Dragonstone. 

Dorne is kind of up in the air.  I want to place it with Dany but... the show seems determined to poop on everything Dorne besides Oberyn.  

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2 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Again it feels like we are watching different shows, because in the one I am watching she has heeded advice from Westerosi advisers at every point, even after a string of severe reverses she heeded Jon's advice and attacked the army instead of the Red Keep (She even says Red keep twice, which is different from claiming as you do that she wanted to kill everyone in Kings landing)

Yes, she says the Red Keep but it is in reference to their earlier conversation, as Tyrion makes clear in this scene. In that previous scene Tyrion explains that "if we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die." Dany herself notes that she is "not here to be queen of the ashes" meaning she knows that attacking Cersei in the Red Keep means destruction not just of the Red Keep but on King's Landing.

When Dany asks Jon's advice on what to do he understands the repercussions of "just attacking the Red Keep" by saying that people will not love her if she "melts castles and burns cities." It is clear to everyone that attacking the Red Keep does not simply mean the Red Keep, but it involves collateral damage throughout King's Landing that will bring the city to ashes and kill tens of thousands of people. And although Dany seemed to believe that was unreasonable when she had other ways of claiming the throne, now that she doesn't she can't come to that conclusion on her own. 

2 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

So of course Dany believes she was born to rule the 7 kingdoms, what has developed is that she believes her claim should be supported because she has demonstrated she would be good at it.

Good at ruling? Indeed we must be watching different shows because Dany's attempts to free Slaver's Bay were horribly bloody ordeals in which not only former slavers die, but many former slaves and civilians are killed. The Sons of the Harpy slaughter civilians in Meereen and the city suffers from the bombardment of the other slaves cities that she "liberated" (which also have seen lots of bloodshed after Dany simply leaves thinking the peace she has established will continue after she is gone). Dany ends up getting out of the whole mess in Essos simply by setting her dragons loose and burning the Slaver's ships.

That's not being good at ruling, that's brute force and slaughter to get your enemies to do what you want them to do. The second she can leave Meereen for Westeros she does, leaving only Daario to hold the peace there. And the only way peace will hold in Slaver's Bay is through some heavy artificiality, because we've seen what happens when the immediate threat of Dany and her dragons is gone, things fall to shit. 

 

2 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Your objections do seem to be an unreasoning animus against the character, because they could only be answered by the character being an entirely different character, DDS - Dany derangement syndrome.

I want to like Dany because I know that she is going to end up in a position of power, and it's damned easy to like the character that you are supposed to be rooting for.  But the show has done a horrible disservice to her character (although to be fair, Martin has not got her to a point where she is worthy of ruling either). We are told that we have to love Dany and that she is doing the right thing, but her actions have not shown that. She made a mess out of Slaver's Bay (again, the only reason that any peace is Slaver's Bay is holding is because the show wants to be done with it and not have to worry about the repercussions of Dany's departure), she has been outsmarted in every move she has made in Westeros so far, and she doesn't understand why she can't just set her dragons loose.

She's not a good ruler, and she has done nothing to show that she has the capacity to be a good ruler other than blow shit up with her dragons. If that is the kind of ruler she wants to be, fine. But the show is pretending that she is the savior that will change the dynamics of the entire system of power in Westeros. And she has never shown the ability to be able to do anything like that. 

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1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

The show (Benioff & Weiss) have picked a side on this argument and they have chosen to let the Starks get away with too much pride

What... you... you are trolling, right? The Starks get away with too much?! Most of them are dead, and all the rest are in various stages of severe emotional scarring and/or extreme PTSD, and don't even get me started on what's wrong with Dr. Branhattan.

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1 hour ago, Snormund said:

Good to see Dany stans are just as entitled, whiny and insufferable as the Brat Queen herself. 

 

:rolleyes:

Dany is being absolutely ridiculous. She has one ally who is saying, Houston we have  a big problem to the North and it will end us all, and all she does is try to use it to get what she wants. She doesn't have the leadership ability to realize she should at least check out this threat to see if it is valid.

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16 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I think Jon should keep standing up to Dany until she proves herself worthy of knee bending. Dany should recognize she is bulldozing the only ally she has and maybe learn to share just a little.

Exactly she has not shown Jon anything that she is worthy of him bending the knee to her, on the other hand the wildlings who have been enemies of westeros in particular to men of the north forever chose to follow Jon why?  Because he proved he was worthy enough to be followed his actions proved that.  Aegon I proved he was worthy which was why Torrehen Stark bent the knee.

 

1 hour ago, Bowen 747 said:

The north will be the area that sits in the path of the WWs.  They're most vulnerable.  Jon should know this and set his pride aside.  Dany is actually being generous.  She allowed Jon to mine the dragon glass.  No other ruler would allow a rebel to do such a thing.  Jon is the one being pig-headed. 

Jon had no qualms disregarding the opinions of his followers before.  Why choose this time to put their opinions ahead of their survival?  Which is stupid by the way.  It is poor writing on the part of HBO or it's just another example of David Benioff, DB Weiss, and Bryan Cogman trying to win over Jon's fans.

Dany is a foreign invader whose name means less than nothing in many parts of Westeros, Jon came to her asking for an alliance and in return she is demanding subservience.  Jon maybe  being stubborn well that that does not mean he is wrong.  Remember what disregarding his followers got him, he was just in a similar situations with the wildlings and the nights watch.  He was Lord commander and went against the wishes of his lieutenants who considered the wildings their enemy, and although what he did was for their benefit, they did not see it that way they saw it as a betrayal and he ended up with several knives in the back and heart.  He had to learn something from that experience the lords of the north and vale do not trust southern rulers and the Vale were the first to raise their banners in rebellion against the Targs. To say he should suck it up and bend the knee to Dany makes no sense as doing so puts in a weak position to the men he has already and who says they don't turn on him.

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My apologies if this has already been discussed as I haven't had a chance to read all the replies so far.

I find Dany to be really hypocritical.  She says to Jon something along the lines of "are you too proud to do this".  Isn't her insistence for people to bend the knee to her also a matter of pride?

Furthermore, she had that whole "break the wheel" speech in season 5 or season 6.  My interpretation of that was she wanted to form a society where you don't have a single leader to sit the iron throne.  Yet every action this season from her is ultimately about her sitting the iron throne as supreme ruler with everyone bending the knee.

I really dislike this character, both in how she is written and acted.  But then again, the same could be said for Cersei.  At this point I'm kind of rooting for the white walkers to rule the continent.  At least they don't talk on the show, thereby making it impossible for them to say something stupid, hypocritical or contradictory. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The north will be the area that sits in the path of the WWs.  They're most vulnerable.  Jon should know this and set his pride aside.  Dany is actually being generous.  She allowed Jon to mine the dragon glass.  No other ruler would allow a rebel to do such a thing.  Jon is the one being pig-headed. 

Jon had no qualms disregarding the opinions of his followers before.  Why choose this time to put their opinions ahead of their survival?  Which is stupid by the way.  It is poor writing on the part of HBO or it's just another example of David Benioff, DB Weiss, and Bryan Cogman trying to win over Jon's fans.

The fact that the north is most vulnerable is precisely why he has to remain steadfast and not bend the knee.  If he does, he is hers to command and she could decide that it is more important to win the IT first, then deal with the WW.  She said she'd fight with him, she didn't say when.  It has nothing to do with Jon's pride, it's hers.  Remember, he didn't even want to be king. Forcing a ruler they don't know on the north is a far cry more serious than the couple things he overruled them on.  They would feel betrayed and could just choose someone else to lead them.  What gives her the right to just demand that everyone bend the knee to her?  Like Jon said, she needs to prove she is not more of the same.

Dany thinking she is the rightful heir to the IT throne does not make it so.  She is not a ruler over anything in Westeros except Dragonstone, so the northroners are not rebels.  She is allowing Jon to mine dragonglass, but if you recall it's because Tyrion convinced it would be a gesture of goodwill to a possible ally.

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2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Jon was a fool for going there in person to begin with. He should have sent Davos as an Emissary and invite her North if needed under guest rights etc. Going there in person made him a hostage, Tyrion purposely misled Jon to get him into Dany's hands. it was stupid and was written in to get a story going with them. Dany is the foreigner, she has or had the stacked deck in her hands (massive fighting force), she would have done better to be "helpful" to gain some trust in her family name where her father and eldest brother ruined it.

It would have been nice for it to go that way, but 1) they have to compress things due to time constraints and 2) as arrogant as she has become, I don't think she would have done it.  Remember she summoned all the lords of westeros to come to her and bend the knee.  3) Jon recognized that because she believes herself to be queen, she would have been insulted if anyone but the KitN answered him summons.

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3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

First of all, letting the north fight the others alone means that the army of undead just gets even bigger. 

Secondly... Jon's already a wight. 

I disagree.  Jon was raised by Melisandre, not by the NK.  Also wights are totally mindless, controlled by the NK.  Jon clearly has all his mental faculties.

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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

What... you... you are trolling, right? The Starks get away with too much?! Most of them are dead, and all the rest are in various stages of severe emotional scarring and/or extreme PTSD, and don't even get me started on what's wrong with Dr. Branhattan.

Yes, the Starks have basically set up as the good guys.  But they have been persecuted pretty much ever since Ned arrived in KL.  His honor (different from pride) got him killed.  If getting beheaded is getting away with stuff, I hate to see the result of not getting away with stuff! 

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