Jon should bend his knees.

[Lurid Jester]

2 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

-bad participatory - someone who seeks input but can never reach decisions, not sure the show has had one, Robert Baratheon?

Tommen maybe?

[The Bastard of Summer]

If Jon were to kneel for Dany right now,  to save his people,  I believe one of two things will happen.

1. The Northmen would remove Jon as their king immediately. They would then be at war with the White Walkers, Dany, and Cersei. Resulting in the death of his men. More than likely the White Walkers would kill them all first and Jon kneeling was a wasted effort.

2. Dany would accept his fealty and repeat her oath to help in the fight against the White Walkers, BUT only after he brings his men south to help her and her army take the Iron Throne for herself. (Yep I see her pulling a Cersei on Euron in this case) Which would result in the death of the Northmen by White Walkers anyway. Because as they are marching south the White Walkers would becoming at their backs. There would be no first line of defense to stop them. In this scenario I think from the very moment after Dany says "I'll help you after but first...."

Jon would absolutely rebel instantly.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes, you are right about the summons, I forgot that.  I know they didn't read it in its entirety on the show, but obviously if it had said something about bending the knee it would have been mentioned.

I disagree that Tyrion thinks Jon is weak.  He's doing everything for Dany's benefit, which is what a loyal advisor does and even though he did disrespect him by not being fully truthful about Dany's summons, he does like and respect Jon.  He has said so, and it is evident in the way he talks to Jon.

lying and deceiving someone or some party when trying to bridge a gap between them and another party is a bad way to start things off but that is all in the past now and has seemingly been brushed aside.

Sorry, I am just not a Tyrion Fan boy.

[Snormund]

41 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

If Jon were to kneel for Dany right now,  to save his people,  I believe one of two things will happen.

1. The Northmen would remove Jon as their king immediately. They would then be at war with the White Walkers, Dany, and Cersei. Resulting in the death of his men. More than likely the White Walkers would kill them all first and Jon kneeling was a wasted effort.

2. Dany would accept his fealty and repeat her oath to help in the fight against the White Walkers, BUT only after he brings his men south to help her and her army take the Iron Throne for herself. (Yep I see her pulling a Cersei on Euron in this case) Which would result in the death of the Northmen by White Walkers anyway. Because as they are marching south the White Walkers would becoming at their backs. There would be no first line of defense to stop them. In this scenario I think from the very moment after Dany says "I'll help you after but first...."

Jon would absolutely rebel instantly.

Well Jon would rebel if the show wasn't about to assassinate his character completely. But I'm sure he'll just become the (show version of) Jaime to Dany's Cersei now because grrrrrrrl powah. If the shows weird handling of female characters is indeed due to criticism of them not having strong women characters and or being sexist in the past they are just proving they don't know what makes a strong woman. 

[The Bastard of Summer]

19 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Well Jon would rebel if the show wasn't about to assassinate his character completely. But I'm sure he'll just become the (show version of) Jaime to Dany's Cersei now because grrrrrrrl powah. If the shows weird handling of female characters is indeed due to criticism of them not having strong women characters and or being sexist in the past they are just proving they don't know what makes a strong woman. 

Right! Fuck girl power if it means ruining a great fucking story. I don't think its sexist at all to show two women in power being self serving. Men do it all the time. Why would a woman be incapable of being as treacherous and self serving as a man in the same position? I don't think its sexist or the writers saying woman are not able to be great competent rulers just because they don't show any in the show. It just means those competent women are not part of THIS particular story at this point in time. Then again Asha is competent present day. Lil Lady Mormont.  Just don't ruin a good story for the sake of someone being offended.

[SansaJonRule]

43 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

lying and deceiving someone or some party when trying to bridge a gap between them and another party is a bad way to start things off but that is all in the past now and has seemingly been brushed aside.

Sorry, I am just not a Tyrion Fan boy.

I was just acknowledging the logic of what you said, not defending him.  He is a politician now............

Although I have always liked Tyrion, I am not liking how he is so in Dany's pocket now.

[WCPhan]

1 hour ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

If Jon were to kneel for Dany right now,  to save his people,  I believe one of two things will happen.

1. The Northmen would remove Jon as their king immediately. They would then be at war with the White Walkers, Dany, and Cersei. Resulting in the death of his men. More than likely the White Walkers would kill them all first and Jon kneeling was a wasted effort.

2. Dany would accept his fealty and repeat her oath to help in the fight against the White Walkers, BUT only after he brings his men south to help her and her army take the Iron Throne for herself. (Yep I see her pulling a Cersei on Euron in this case) Which would result in the death of the Northmen by White Walkers anyway. Because as they are marching south the White Walkers would becoming at their backs. There would be no first line of defense to stop them. In this scenario I think from the very moment after Dany says "I'll help you after but first...."

Jon would absolutely rebel instantly.

I have a little different take.

i think if Jon bends the knee, that would mean if she calls for his army to fight Cersai then they have to obey and leave the north wide open for the Army of the Dead. 

One of the things I see happening is Jon Snow, Tyrion, Davos and Dany going to KL and meeting with Cersai and Jamie and try and make her believe in the threat of the Night King.

[The Bastard of Summer]

5 minutes ago, WCPhan said:

I have a little different take.

i think if Jon bends the knee, that would mean if she calls for his army to fight Cersai then they have to obey and leave the north wide open for the Army of the Dead. 

One of the things I see happening is Jon Snow, Tyrion, Davos and Dany going to KL and meeting with Cersai and Jamie and try and make her believe in the threat of the Night King.

I think they would rather remove Jon and fight and die against her than to obey her. They flat out don't trust the south. If Jon says I bent the knee she is now your queen as well as mine. The entire north would go "Nope." Sansa especially.

[A Ghost of Someone]

22 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I was just acknowledging the logic of what you said, not defending him.  He is a politician now............

Although I have always liked Tyrion, I am not liking how he is so in Dany's pocket now.

not a problem. Just observing the show, Tyrion's body language and attitude coming up should cause concern for Dany, let alone all his military advise so far has been one disaster after another.

[Nadalia]

What I didn't like was Dany telling that his pride was preventing him from bending the knee. What about her pride at insisting he bend the knee? Hello!

[SansaJonRule]

21 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

not a problem. Just observing the show, Tyrion's body language and attitude coming up should cause concern for Dany, let alone all his military advise so far has been one disaster after another.

Concern as in she is losing Tyrion's support?  I definitely think HE is concerned about her pig-headedness and tendency toward rash decisions. 

His military advice has been a disaster because he is not a military man (although I think there is more to it than that), he is her Hand  Grey Worm should be military commander, but he doesn't know Westeros.  Usher in Jorah.  I wish we knew whose idea it was to intercept the Lannister forces on their way back to KL.  Perhaps E5 will tell us.

I think for the most part Tyrion has been a good Hand to Dany.  The way he handled Jon in E3 was excellent.  It wasn't reasonable for Jon to expect Dany to believe him right off about the WW, but he asked Jon what he could help him with.  The way he convinced Dany to allow Jon to mine the DG was very good too.  The big blunder he made was in not advising Dany that she was being unreasonable in her demands.  But maybe that's because he's afraid of becoming a burnt tator tot.

[The Bastard of Summer]

1 minute ago, Nadalia said:

What I didn't like was Dany telling that his pride was preventing him from bending the knee. What about her pride at insisting he bend the knee? Hello!

Exactly! Why don't you prove your worth to these people by helping them first then let them choose you as their queen if they so choose. Missandi gave the whole speech about them choosing her not because she was the daughter of some king they never knew, but they chose her because they believed in her. Well the people of the north KNEW your father and the other people in the south who have proven to be just the same. Why should they just bend to you? because you said so? Then if you want people to obey you because you said so,take your unsullied and your dorthraki and sail your ass back to Essos

[El Guapo]

3 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

I agree with you regarding Dany's actions in the past.  She listened to Tyrion, Jorah, Missendei, and Greyworm.  BUT the trailer for ep 5 show us 2 things: Viserys telling Tyrion that he has to get her to listen and we see Dany telling townspeople that she is not a killer, but they either join her or die.  These are not good things that are forcing Dany's leadership to become strident and demanding.  I realize that things are not going well for her and she has experienced some losses but as long as she thinks she is entitled to rule, that is not going to work for her. 

I am pretty sure Dany is talking to the Lords of the army that she just massacred and not towns people. There was not a town in sight of that battle.  She is not about to start roasting innocent civilians. We will have to see exactly what Varys and Tyrion are talking about or even if they are talking about Dany at all as these previews can sometimes be a little misleading.

[El Guapo]

2 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

If Jon were to kneel for Dany right now,  to save his people,  I believe one of two things will happen.

1. The Northmen would remove Jon as their king immediately. They would then be at war with the White Walkers, Dany, and Cersei. Resulting in the death of his men. More than likely the White Walkers would kill them all first and Jon kneeling was a wasted effort.

2. Dany would accept his fealty and repeat her oath to help in the fight against the White Walkers, BUT only after he brings his men south to help her and her army take the Iron Throne for herself. (Yep I see her pulling a Cersei on Euron in this case) Which would result in the death of the Northmen by White Walkers anyway. Because as they are marching south the White Walkers would becoming at their backs. There would be no first line of defense to stop them. In this scenario I think from the very moment after Dany says "I'll help you after but first...."

Jon would absolutely rebel instantly.

As far as #2 goes I don't see it.

The season to me is slowly building up to 3 things:  1) Jon kneeling to Dany. 2) Dany heading north to face the undead army and 3) Dany and Jon becoming romantically involved.. If Jon bends the knee to her its because she is going to head north first and to deal with Cersei.

[A Ghost of Someone]

31 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Concern as in she is losing Tyrion's support?  I definitely think HE is concerned about her pig-headedness and tendency toward rash decisions. 

His military advice has been a disaster because he is not a military man (although I think there is more to it than that), he is her Hand  Grey Worm should be military commander, but he doesn't know Westeros.  Usher in Jorah.  I wish we knew whose idea it was to intercept the Lannister forces on their way back to KL.  Perhaps E5 will tell us.

I think for the most part Tyrion has been a good Hand to Dany.  The way he handled Jon in E3 was excellent.  It wasn't reasonable for Jon to expect Dany to believe him right off about the WW, but he asked Jon what he could help him with.  The way he convinced Dany to allow Jon to mine the DG was very good too.  The big blunder he made was in not advising Dany that she was being unreasonable in her demands.  But maybe that's because he's afraid of becoming a burnt tator tot.

Tyrion has a conflict of interest.

[The Bastard of Summer]

3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

As far as #2 goes I don't see it.

The season to me is slowly building up to 3 things:  1) Jon kneeling to Dany. 2) Dany heading north to face the undead army and 3) Dany and Jon becoming romantically involved.. If Jon bends the knee to her its because she is going to head north first and to deal with Cersei.

They are sadly gearing up to make them a love thang.... But I think in this next episode its been some time that has passed and Jon gets the raven from home and he decided its time to leave. I don't think Jon will leave Dragonstone having bent the knee. He will leave telling her fine. "You keep going after becoming queen of the realm I'm gonna go save the realm." She will permit him to leave....how and why though I'm not sure. But I will make a half-ass guess. It may be that she tries to intimidate him with Drogon but it doesn't work. Drogon kinds just growls at him and goes naw he's good let him go. She's impressed by his will to save and protect his people with or without her and it makes her wet for The Snow Man. Not only that but by Drogons affinity for him and his lack of fear in the face of a dragon. She then comes to the conclusion he must be dead serious about this threat and the safety of his people. So after he departs she heads north too.

[El Guapo]

12 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

They are sadly gearing up to make them a love thang.... But I think in this next episode its been some time that has passed and Jon gets the raven from home and he decided its time to leave. I don't think Jon will leave Dragonstone having bent the knee. He will leave telling her fine. "You keep going after becoming queen of the realm I'm gonna go save the realm." She will permit him to leave....how and why though I'm not sure. But I will make a half-ass guess. It may be that she tries to intimidate him with Drogon but it doesn't work. Drogon kinds just growls at him and goes naw he's good let him go. She's impressed by his will to save and protect his people with or without her and it makes her wet for The Snow Man. Not only that but by Drogons affinity for him and his lack of fear in the face of a dragon. She then comes to the conclusion he must be dead serious about this threat and the safety of his people. So after he departs she heads north too.

On this we agree. Jon will not bend the knee on Dragonstone. He will though when Dany journeys north to join the fight.  Once she sees the threat for herself she will be committed to fight it.  Jon will then thank her, bend the knee, and then they will rip off their clothes and have hot steamy incestual sex.

 

[The Bastard of Summer]

30 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

On this we agree. Jon will not bend the knee on Dragonstone. He will though when Dany journeys north to join the fight.  Once she sees the threat for herself she will be committed to fight it.  Jon will then thank her, bend the knee, and then they will rip off their clothes and have hot steamy incestual sex.

 

Ewww. LOL. IF there is a sexual realationship I just hope it that when It comes out to the both of them about his parentage Jon decides that Rhaegar may be his father but her is no incestuous Targaryen and tells Dany that the sexual part of the relationship is over....I'm hoping that Ned raising him is deeply rooted in him and he decides that incest is not best. But I think Dany will become pregnant and she will either have the baby durning the long night and die later having to sacrifice herself. Or she will die in child birth after the war is won. Depending on how long this long night takes place

[Wm Portnoy]

On 8/8/2017 at 8:39 AM, Ygrain said:

For someone who has lost all her Westerosi allies, Dany keeps adressing Jon from a position of power she no longer has, and doesn't display the characteristics of a ruler who cares for their subjects more than for their own pride. Davos should teach her the same lesson he taught Stannis - you want to be king, you show that you care. 

That said, Jon should totally bend the knee if it coud save the North, but he should promise to do so after the Others are defeated, because if they are not, it does not matter whose skeleton sits the IT. 

But yeah, an alliance confirmed by a wedding would be the way. Cersei has led the way here, after all.

I would want assurances in the form of hostages to make sure Jon keeps his word.  I would require that Sansa and Ghost be taken to Dragonstone by the Unsullied.  Only to be released when Dany returns.  If Jon goes back on his word, Sansa and Ghost are toast. 

[Wm Portnoy]

3 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Concern as in she is losing Tyrion's support?  I definitely think HE is concerned about her pig-headedness and tendency toward rash decisions. 

His military advice has been a disaster because he is not a military man (although I think there is more to it than that), he is her Hand  Grey Worm should be military commander, but he doesn't know Westeros.  Usher in Jorah.  I wish we knew whose idea it was to intercept the Lannister forces on their way back to KL.  Perhaps E5 will tell us.

I think for the most part Tyrion has been a good Hand to Dany.  The way he handled Jon in E3 was excellent.  It wasn't reasonable for Jon to expect Dany to believe him right off about the WW, but he asked Jon what he could help him with.  The way he convinced Dany to allow Jon to mine the DG was very good too.  The big blunder he made was in not advising Dany that she was being unreasonable in her demands.  But maybe that's because he's afraid of becoming a burnt tator tot.

All of Dany's demands are reasonable and she is actually very very generous by offering to allow Jon to take away the obsidian.  Jon is a rebel and he enjoys no consideration from Dany or from Cersei.  Cersei would have killed Jon the moment he refused to bend the knee.  Daenerys is the one being reasonable here.  Jon is behaving like the limp dick that he is.