Heavy D

Jon should bend his knees.

288 posts in this topic

Jon has no more excuses.  Queen Daenerys agreed to help.  Jon should bend his knees and apologize to Dany for being stubborn.  It's time to clear the rubble in the north that is Sansa.  Bend your knees, Jon.

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Posted (edited)

He's in dilemma :

  • He must get help from someone but he have nothing to offer other than allegiance
  • He knows that northerners will never accept an allegiance with a targaryen, it was clearly stated in the scene

it is not his call to bend or not bend the knee, if he bends the knee, the north will remove him as a king and enter a war with Daenerys

 

19 hours ago, Heavy D said:

It's time to clear the rubble in the north that is Sansa

I didn't know that Sansa in the enemy of Jon, maybe I'm watching the wrong show or maybe I'm hearing "Sansa" when Jon says "the night king"

Do you really don't know that it was Jon who assigned Sansa to be his regent!!!

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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Posted (edited)

Jon is the guy who makes the decisions his people disagree with for the good of everyone. 

Like with letting the Wildlings through. Bending the knee and getting the help needed so they don't all die is the right thing to do, but the northern lords will not like him for it. Starks in Winterfell will still mobilize the north to Jon to fight the WW if they denounced him as king (which isn't fluffy enough for the show).

Sure he battles internally over these things for a while but I'm sure it's coming. 

Edited by Nezm

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Jon should not bend the knee ever :-

  • Hes KITN, bending to a potential new ruler on reduces his power.
  • His Northern Lords didn't want him to go, so bending the knee would only serve to do more harm than good.

He should continue to stand his ground and prove his worth in other ways. Even knowing from the moment they met after she basically made them prisoner in all but name, with the potential to be burned alive just like his Grandad and Uncle, he didn't bend the knee. He has a great bond with Tyrion who is serving as Hand of the Queen, but as its going he probably wont have to bend the knee. Daenerys and Jon are growing closer and thats clear so helping him will be her be an act of love maybe.....?

Jon understands the bigger picture and he understands what kneeling would do, hes far from crumbling at the thought of being slaughtered by Daenerys as said he would have bent the knee after their first meeting. 

To conclude I dont want him to bend the knee and I think the viewers dont to. As for character development it would be more optimistic if as well. 

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19 hours ago, Heavy D said:

Jon has no more excuses.  Queen Daenerys agreed to help.  Jon should bend his knees and apologize to Dany for being stubborn.  It's time to clear the rubble in the north that is Sansa.  Bend your knees, Jon.

You don't see where this is heading?

Jon needs her alliance but bending the knee will not go down with those who 'elected him' the same people who bled to overthrow the mad king and wo5k.

What to do what to do?

If only there was a way for Dany and Jon to forge an alliance where he could remain KitN and she was Queen of the 7 kingdoms!

 

Hint Davos has observed the answer

 

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Like Jon said, it's irrelavant if he bends the knee as the Northern Lords will just kick him out, maybe with Sansa backing them, as Jon knows.

So it's not simply it. Also lol at Daenerys because he doesn't actually care of pride, he is being rational with his knowledge of his lords, only if there was someone blindly prideful in that scene...

 

The obvious solution is the one that should have been mentioned a lot by now and not just hinted, it's the Dorne way: marriage.

There's no one else better for Daenerys for a political marriage than Jon.

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28 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

What to do what to do?

If only there was a way for Dany and Jon to forge an alliance where he could remain KitN and she was Queen of the 7 kingdoms!

 

Hint Davos has observed the answer

 

You're right. When Robb was crowned he was crowned as King in the North, same with Jon. When Stannis and Renly crowned themselves, they crowned themselves King of the Seven Kingdoms.

The Northerners are noted as a different type of people. Right from book one it is suggested that they don't care about what goes on in the South. Many would have jumped at the chance to be Hand of the King, but Ned didn't want it; he was happy enough to be Warden of the North, the only place that mattered to him.

Robb didn't want the Iron Throne and neither does Jon. What Daenerys is coming to slowly realise is that Jon isn't a threat to her. He may call himself King, but he isn't calling himself her King. He hasn’t come asking Daenerys to bend her knee. He is calling himself King of the North, an area of Westeros that he, as leader, wants to come together with Daenerys to fight the White Walkers.

The best possible outcome is for no knees to be bent, just an agreement to be made that these two sides led by Jon and Daenerys will help one another defeat the true threat, the White Walkers. As has been previously suggested, the cogs seem to be turning in Davos' mind as to a perfect way for that to happen.

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He absolutely shouldn't. Daenerys is starting to comprehend the threat, and yet she puts her own desire for ruling the Seven Kingdoms above the wellbeing of the people within the Seven Kingdoms. And not just the North, but ALL the Seven Kingdoms, because the White Walkers certainly won't stop at the Neck. She has some nerve talking about pride when she refuses to do the right thing because of her own personal pride. Hell, even Stannis put aside his personal pride to do what needed to be done. Instead, the options Daenerys is presenting him with are "Serve me or I'll let the White Walkers kill you." There's nothing good or noble about leveraging the oncoming extinction of the human race for your own personal gain.

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I think there is a different reason why this topic keeps coming up; 

Jon is the son of rhaegar (confirmed by HBO). I think his legitimacy will be proven at some point, which makes him the 'rightful heir' before Daenerys (son of heir goes before sister of heir). Which will resulting in Dany having to 'bend the knee'. I think that's the reason why she has mentioned it three (or 2?) times already [/spoi

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Jon should have bent his knees when he first met Daenerys.  He's out of excuses.  If I were Dany, I would let Jon and the north battle the white walkers on their own for a while.  Then let's see if that shithead Yohn Royce, Sansa, and Petyr Baelish still resists.  I would not help Jon unless he bends the knee in front of all the north to see.

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18 minutes ago, Camara said:

Like Jon said, it's irrelavant if he bends the knee as the Northern Lords will just kick him out, maybe with Sansa backing them, as Jon knows.

So it's not simply it. Also lol at Daenerys because he doesn't actually care of pride, he is being rational with his knowledge of his lords, only if there was someone blindly prideful in that scene...

 

The obvious solution is the one that should have been mentioned a lot by now and not just hinted, it's the Dorne way: marriage.

There's no one else better for Daenerys for a political marriage than Jon.

Jon finally learned something. Back in season 5 he asked Mance to bend the knee. He told him "Isn't your survival more important than your pride?". 

He asks from Daenerys to take her army north to fight a threat that is beyond the wall. Creatures that are known as legends and fairytales.

Daenerys don't understand what can happen if he bend the knee in the same way Jon couldn't understand that back in season 5.

Jon ask her to give up the war for the iron throne, the war that she (and I) was waiting for so long time and fight for him(and the humanity-though she can't be sure about that). And he said fores nothing.

If Jon bend the knee he proves Daenerys that all those he says is truth.. That the matter of the WW is a matter of life and death. However if he bend the knee he might loose the North..

All in all, I agree with you that the Dorne way is the best..

It seems like Jon liked Daenerys(according Davos), and Daenerys left Daario in the Slaver's(Dragon's) Bay because alliances are forged through wedding. I made another post of the candidates but the only one capable of marrying her is Jon.(I mean who else? Robbin?).

She is his aunt, but does that really matter?

The only one who knows the truth is Bran (and possibly Howland Reed-his daughter is going home). Melisandre said she did her duty, she brought ice and fire together. What if Bran hide the truth for a while, because he know that must be together so they can fight the White Walkers.

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5 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

Jon should have bent his knees when he first met Daenerys.  He's out of excuses.  If I were Dany, I would let Jon and the north battle the white walkers on their own for a while.  Then let's see if that shithead Yohn Royce, Sansa, and Petyr Baelish still resists.  I would not help Jon unless he bends the knee in front of all the north to see.

This is stupid... Daenerys has to understand its not about the war for the Iron Throne anymore and she will eventually. Thats one reason why Jon is not bending the knee cos these childish games that Daenerys/Cersei etc are playing at dont matter. The Iron Throne does not matter. Jon is standing his ground in the face of potential death to show its the right thing to do and the Battle of the Dawn 2.0 is the most important thing that matters. Defeating the WW and the AoD. 

Its about uniting the kingdom not for the Iron Throne but for the sake of survival. 

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

This is stupid... Daenerys has to understand its not about the war for the Iron Throne anymore and she will eventually. Thats one reason why Jon is not bending the knee cos these childish games that Daenerys/Cersei etc are playing at dont matter. The Iron Throne does not matter. Jon is standing his ground in the face of potential death to show its the right thing to do and the Battle of the Dawn 2.0 is the most important thing that matters. Defeating the WW and the AoD. 

Its about uniting the kingdom not for the Iron Throne but for the sake of survival. 

Agreed, it's idiotic. Having them "battle it out" works with people, but it does NOT work with White Walkers. White Walkers only get stronger with each battle, not weaker, as the Night King then raises ALL the dead from the battle and adds them to his army. If Daenerys does that, and the North loses, as it surely would, then she would have to fight the army of the dead after it's been bolstered by EVERY LAST MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD IN THE ENTIRE NORTH! And her dragons can't possibly burn that many Wights before the White Walkers and the Night King kill them.

Edited by Thor Odinson

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He shouldn't. It gives him some leverage over the situation as he now represents a "third faction" of sorts.

Also, Daenerys insistence is understandable as she doesn't understand the political situation he is facing. Daenerys doesn't understand the threat of the Army of the Dead either. Her advisers, if they were worth the trouble of dragging them along, should have educated her on the first point. But it's fair enough that she's taking her time to accept the second. Though with how quickly people seem to come to grips with seeing dragons I suppose it's about time for her to come around to Jon's stories.

What he can do is make like Cincinnatus and vow to step aside once the war is over. This might ease the tension a bit.

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44 minutes ago, Attitude said:

I think there is a different reason why this topic keeps coming up; 

 

  Hide contents

Jon is the son of rhaegar (confirmed by HBO). I think his legitimacy will be proven at some point, which makes him the 'rightful heir' before Daenerys (son of heir goes before sister of heir). Which will resulting in Dany having to 'bend the knee'. I think that's the reason why she has mentioned it three (or 2?) times already [/spoi

I had not thought about Jons claim being stronger than Dany, all the more reason form them to get married

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16 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

Jon finally learned something. Back in season 5 he asked Mance to bend the knee. He told him "Isn't your survival more important than your pride?". 

He asks from Daenerys to take her army north to fight a threat that is beyond the wall. Creatures that are known as legends and fairytales.

Daenerys don't understand what can happen if he bend the knee in the same way Jon couldn't understand that back in season 5.

Jon ask her to give up the war for the iron throne, the war that she (and I) was waiting for so long time and fight for him(and the humanity-though she can't be sure about that). And he said fores nothing.

If Jon bend the knee he proves Daenerys that all those he says is truth.. That the matter of the WW is a matter of life and death. However if he bend the knee he might loose the North..

All in all, I agree with you that the Dorne way is the best..

It seems like Jon liked Daenerys(according Davos), and Daenerys left Daario in the Slaver's(Dragon's) Bay because alliances are forged through wedding. I made another post of the candidates but the only one capable of marrying her is Jon.(I mean who else? Robbin?).

She is his aunt, but does that really matter?

The only one who knows the truth is Bran (and possibly Howland Reed-his daughter is going home). Melisandre said she did her duty, she brought ice and fire together. What if Bran hide the truth for a while, because he know that must be together so they can fight the White Walkers.

 

But that's different situations.

The wildlings' rule under Mance was just a one hit wonder ducktape keeping all those people together. The North is much more united and would work well with another Stark leader, like they did before.

Daenerys wants Jon to bend the knee to her, Jon wasn't asking Mance to bend the knee to him.

Yes he is tasting his own words, but also Jon knows that bending the knee may be irrelavant, because if he bends the knee the North will just remove him from power so his act will be useless.

It will actually be worse because they will be even more reluctant to deal with Daenerys,

Jon isn't asking her to lose the Throne, Jon is actually telling her that if she wants the Iron Throne there's some wight rebellion she must actually deal with.

 

I agree that Jon should be explaining what the hell are the Others and the wights.

It's not something you explain in a one liner, but you can tell something is fishy when a king asks you to deploy all your armies in his unprotected lands. Daenerys knows this that's why she isn't full out laughing at him.

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1 minute ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

I had not thought about Jons claim being stronger than Dany, all the more reason form them to get married

Even if Jon has a stronger claim(as many of you keep saying), it can be questioned. He don't have the Targaryen looks so all his claims relies on Bran and the words of other men..

but still a wedding would solve all of this...

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Jon should obviously bend the knee, but he won't because his and the other lords' pride is more important than their survival. The bannermen are dumb and they refuse to understand what Jon has been telling them. To stick together and not fight amongst themselves. They need Daenerys's help and they have nothing to offer in return. Hence, the answer is accepting Daenerys's terms and bending their bloody knees or dying when the Others come and they have no fire power or obsidian. 

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Posted (edited)

Even without Dany (or Jon) knowing about Jon's Targaryen father, legit or not, I can't understand why any of their advisers haven't already jumped on the idea of a political marriage.  At the end of season 6, she leaves Daario in Meeren, partially to keep herself open to politically advantageous marriage.  And there literally is not a single more eligible and more politically rewarding man to marry in Westeros at this point other than the King in the North.  It defeats the bend the knee problem: North and South united as one but without the pesky fealty problem, a marriage of equals.

I'm not sure how Davos hasn't proposed this Tyrion or Varys at this point or vice versa.  I mean, yay, he noticed Jon watching her.  But from Day 1 on Dragonstone, how did this not come to mind?

Edited by LyannaStargaryen

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For someone who has lost all her Westerosi allies, Dany keeps adressing Jon from a position of power she no longer has, and doesn't display the characteristics of a ruler who cares for their subjects more than for their own pride. Davos should teach her the same lesson he taught Stannis - you want to be king, you show that you care. 

That said, Jon should totally bend the knee if it coud save the North, but he should promise to do so after the Others are defeated, because if they are not, it does not matter whose skeleton sits the IT. 

But yeah, an alliance confirmed by a wedding would be the way. Cersei has led the way here, after all.

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