Jon should bend his knees.

[SansaJonRule]

31 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

All of Dany's demands are reasonable and she is actually very very generous by offering to allow Jon to take away the obsidian.  Jon is a rebel and he enjoys no consideration from Dany or from Cersei.  Cersei would have killed Jon the moment he refused to bend the knee.  Daenerys is the one being reasonable here.  Jon is behaving like the limp dick that he is. 

Why are her demands reasonable? Because she is King Aeyrs' daughter and has 3 dragons?  She is not queen of Westeros just because she says she is. And why didn't she make Yara, Ellaria and Olenna bend the knee. 

And really you can't make your point without being crude?

 

[Gala]

12 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Her dragons were indeed consider to be a fairytale.. But everyone know that they were once alive even Maesters.. On the other hand Maesters disagree about the existence of the White Wlakers..

i don't want to argue if Dany or Jon were right, because I believe that none of them were wrong.. Daenerys offer her help and ask him to bend the knee, and Jon don't accept because he know that if he does he will probably loose the North..

Daenerys will make one more step closer to the Iron Throne, and then when she is close enough she will leave it and go north to face the Real Enemy.. She was prophecisied(omg..).. We saw what will happen in season 2 in the house of the undying..

I was trying to express the same idea: both are right, both are equally right in their positions, both have their reasons.

[Fiery Heart]

Jon might want to bend the knee, but his decision not to is based on what his people want, they elected him King of the North. Bending the knee means disregarding his title. It would be realistic for him to speak with his people first at the very least.

[El Guapo]

5 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Why are her demands reasonable? Because she is King Aeyrs' daughter and has 3 dragons?  She is not queen of Westeros just because she says she is. And why didn't she make Yara, Ellaria and Olenna bend the knee. 

And really you can't make your point without being crude?

 

Yara didn't bend the knee because based on the deal she struck with Dany the Iron Islands are no longer part of the Seven Kingdoms.  As far as Olenna and Ellaria, what makes you think they didn't bend the knee? They support Dany's claim to the throne and with that recognition most likely came an oath of fealty. Though it is likely she didn't have an 80 year old woman go down on one knee to do it.

[lakin1013]

14 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Tommen maybe?

Good example.  ty

[Lurid Jester]

4 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Good example.  ty

No problem. I'm rewatching season 5 and all the Tommen scenes drive me nuts. 

[lakin1013]

9 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

I would want assurances in the form of hostages to make sure Jon keeps his word.  I would require that Sansa and Ghost be taken to Dragonstone by the Unsullied.  Only to be released when Dany returns.  If Jon goes back on his word, Sansa and Ghost are toast. 

Who is this Ghost you speak of :-)

[RedShirt47]

Dany needs Jon as much as he needs her.

Jon at least has two kingdoms (North and Vale)  under his control whilst she has none (she almost had two with Dorne and Reach but they're lost now). Her conquest is not going as smoothly as she thought it would.

She accused him of "pride" for not bending the knee when the crown was put on his head by his people and he never really wanted nor enjoys power. She on the other hand has been screaming about taking back her throne with Blood and Fire for years now and not because the people want her but because it's hers by birthright.
She needs to realise that she needs Jon to take back the Iron Throne. Maybe if she's helpful enough he'll return the Vale to her.

[El Guapo]

3 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

Dany needs Jon as much as he needs her.

Jon at least has two kingdoms (North and Vale)  under his control whilst she has none (she almost had two with Dorne and Reach but they're lost now). Her conquest is not going as smoothly as she thought it would.

She accused him of "pride" for not bending the knee when the crown was put on his head by his people and he never really wanted nor enjoys power. She on the other hand has been screaming about taking back her throne with Blood and Fire for years now and not because the people want her but because it's hers by birthright.
She needs to realise that she needs Jon to take back the Iron Throne. Maybe if she's helpful enough he'll return the Vale to her.

How is Dorne lost now?  Did I miss the part where Cersei conquered it?  The only thing she "lost" is its army because In D&D's world only Ellaria I guess could lead them. But there is no reason to think that politically speaking Dorne still supports Dany. The Reach at this point is up in the air but after the last episode I am preety sure Highgarden can easily be retaken (Jamie admits as much).  Dany has also taken control of Casterly Rock so I would say Cersei's hold on that region is tenuous at best.

[Gala]

6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

How is Dorne lost now?  Did I miss the part where Cersei conquered it?  The only thing she "lost" is its army because In D&D's world only Ellaria I guess could lead them. But there is no reason to think that politically speaking Dorne still supports Dany. The Reach at this point is up in the air but after the last episode I am preety sure Highgarden can easily be retaken (Jamie admits as much).  Dany has also taken control of Casterly Rock so I would say Cersei's hold on that region is tenuous at best.

Highgarden has nothing now...no food, no gold, few people (leftovers of the army), the castle is literally empty, Casterly Rock - the same and it is under seige now with Dany's Unsullied inside the castle, so I guess, that doesn't mean she has two kingdoms.
Dorne, so far, is leaderless, although, they surely will fight against Lannisters and probably will choose Dany, but anyway right now Dorne does not count.

[mattnj81]

Jon and the North have all the reason they need not to bend the knee. What has the South ever given the North except conquest, betrayal, murder and war?

Rickard Stark- betrayed and unjustly executed

Brandon Stark - betrayed and executed 

Ned Stark - betrayed and executed 

Sansa Stark - held and married against her will

Robb Stark and many Northern lords  - betrayed and murdered at a wedding feast.

This is to say nothing of the North getting embroiled in conflicts created by the other kingdoms (Greyjoy Rebellion and Dance of the Dragons, etc.) Jon may be asking for assistance to fight the others, but that is for the good of all Westeros, not just the North. The North owes nothing to the South and has gotten nothing but grief and misery from Southern kings.

[RedShirt47]

7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

How is Dorne lost now?  Did I miss the part where Cersei conquered it?  The only thing she "lost" is its army because In D&D's world only Ellaria I guess could lead them. But there is no reason to think that politically speaking Dorne still supports Dany. The Reach at this point is up in the air but after the last episode I am preety sure Highgarden can easily be retaken (Jamie admits as much).  Dany has also taken control of Casterly Rock so I would say Cersei's hold on that region is tenuous at best.

Well she doesn't control Dorne or the Reach in any meaningful way, as in being able to field an army from there, collect taxes / food from there etc. With Elaria hostage who knows what Dorne will do. Who leads them? Who would Dany send orders to? And would those orders be followed by whoever that was?

These regions might not be fully in Cersei's hands either but that's not the point. The point I was making is Dany doesn't control any regions (apart from Dragonstone and the castle of Casterly Rock).

Maybe in some time Dany will be able to establish some control and make demands of Jon from a position of power but currently she can't.

[El Guapo]

18 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

Well she doesn't control Dorne or the Reach in any meaningful way, as in being able to field an army from there, collect taxes / food from there etc. With Elaria hostage who knows what Dorne will do. Who leads them? Who would Dany send orders to? And would those orders be followed by whoever that was?

These regions might not be fully in Cersei's hands either but that's not the point. The point I was making is Dany doesn't control any regions (apart from Dragonstone and the castle of Casterly Rock).

Maybe in some time Dany will be able to establish some control and make demands of Jon from a position of power but currently she can't.

She doesn't need to "control" Dorne. They have already sworn fealty and given the fact that this is a kingdom that is so pissed off at the Lannisters that they didn't bat an eye when Oberyn's bastard girlfriend killed the crown prince and heir and were willing to follow her into war. That kingdom is still going to support Dany regardless of who takes over.  The point is probably moot though as I doubt the writers will ever visit Dorne again especially given that Dany's eyes will soon be looking to the real enemy are that is in the north.

But yeah Dany still has a position of power over everybody given the fact that she still has the largest and most powerful army that includes 3 dragons, one of which just incinerated the bulk of the Lannister forces.

[Illiterati]

In hindsight, I think Dany should have landed in Dorne to establish a friendly base of operation.  Then quickly move with Unsullied, Dothraki, and Dornish to shore up the Reach, perhaps let Tarly get a look at her children before he decides to betray Olenna.  She would now have the South of Westeros both under her protection and providing force for the push toward KL.  Lay siege on KL with Dornish and Reach while her imports handle the Riverlands and Stormlands. Tyrion would have advised her that the North won't be a threat for the time being, she could seek to bring them to the knee once the rest of the continent had been wrapped up.  The iron Isles would have been a non-issue because her campaiign would have been entirely land based.  At the point Jon informed her of the threat from north of the wall, she would then have worked her way (teleported?) through the Riverlands and let Cersei twiddle her thumbs while awaiting Dany's reassertion of her attention on the throne.  The truth, though, is that I don't think there will be an iron throne once this series has played out.

[El Guapo]

8 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

In hindsight, I think Dany should have landed in Dorne to establish a friendly base of operation.  Then quickly move with Unsullied, Dothraki, and Dornish to shore up the Reach, perhaps let Tarly get a look at her children before he decides to betray Olenna.  She would now have the South of Westeros both under her protection and providing force for the push toward KL.  Lay siege on KL with Dornish and Reach while her imports handle the Riverlands and Stormlands. Tyrion would have advised her that the North won't be a threat for the time being, she could seek to bring them to the knee once the rest of the continent had been wrapped up.  The iron Isles would have been a non-issue because her campaiign would have been entirely land based.  At the point Jon informed her of the threat from north of the wall, she would then have worked her way (teleported?) through the Riverlands and let Cersei twiddle her thumbs while awaiting Dany's reassertion of her attention on the throne.  The truth, though, is that I don't think there will be an iron throne once this series has played out.

Yeah I chalk this one up to the writers because honestly the setup for this was in place last season. Olenna, Ellaria and Varys were already in Dorne. Dany's armda should have stopped there first. We wouild have the Dany-Varys speech occur in the logical place it should have occurred, you know, when the two actually met for the first time.  The war plans would have remained the same except this time would make more sense since Ellaria was already in Dorne with the army.  They could have then had Dany take over Dragonstone in episode 2.

But alas they wanted that naval fight where Yara, Ellaria and Tyene was captured so they had to find some convoluted reason why the two of them would be a on a ship together.

[Gala]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

She doesn't need to "control" Dorne. They have already sworn fealty and given the fact that this is a kingdom that is so pissed off at the Lannisters that they didn't bat an eye when Oberyn's bastard girlfriend killed the crown prince and heir and were willing to follow her into war. That kingdom is still going to support Dany regardless of who takes over.  The point is probably moot though as I doubt the writers will ever visit Dorne again especially given that Dany's eyes will soon be looking to the real enemy are that is in the north.

But yeah Dany still has a position of power over everybody given the fact that she still has the largest and most powerful army that includes 3 dragons, one of which just incinerated the bulk of the Lannister forces.

That particular army means nothing, for example, in the North during winter - they won't survive there. Dothraki won't be able to be effective. Unsullied won't last long either. Only dragons count, but they are also mortal. So almost all her army is useless in case of war in the North.
While the North, despite all they suffered, and the army of the Vale can survive and would still be  effective. They have snows in the North even is summer (can you imagine winters in that place), while all Dany's army was born, raised and fought only in deserts and steppes. So by all means, she can try and deal with the North from the position of power. 
And after that deal with WW, who ACTUALLY have a position of power over EVERYBODY, which includes hundreds of thousand dead people, the Others, the NK, dead Giants and probably other creatures as well. 

 

[Mikkel]

17 minutes ago, Gala said:

deal with WW, who ACTUALLY have a position of power over EVERYBODY, which includes hundreds of thousand dead people, the Others, the NK, dead Giants and probably other creatures as well

buh mu burthright!

[Super Mario]

2 hours ago, Gala said:

Highgarden has nothing now...no food, no gold, few people (leftovers of the army), the castle is literally empty, Casterly Rock - the same and it is under seige now with Dany's Unsullied inside the castle, so I guess, that doesn't mean she has two kingdoms.
Dorne, so far, is leaderless, although, they surely will fight against Lannisters and probably will choose Dany, but anyway right now Dorne does not count.

The castle of Highgarden might be empty but there's 1000 square miles of farmland in the Reach. It's inconceivable that the Lannisters harvested and transported all the food, grain etc. They took what they could and would go back for more when they could. So Dany has that. Plus Dany just gained all the unburnt Tarley forces from the wagon train battle and the Lannisters are down half an army. It may not be perfect but she's in better shape than she was before the battle.

[Gala]

2 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

The castle of Highgarden might be empty but there's 1000 square miles of farmland in the Reach. It's inconceivable that the Lannisters harvested and transported all the food, grain etc. They took what they could and would go back for more when they could. So Dany has that. Plus Dany just gained all the unburnt Tarley forces from the wagon train battle. It may not be perfect but she's in better shape than she was before the battle.

And who would farm the lands- the Dothraki or dragons? I can only image how they would "ask" the farmers for food. Tarly/Lannisater army seems to be shattered, too, but I doubt that they would suffer dothraki as their superior - somebody (a Westerosi) should stay there and rule the lands, somebody she can trust, otherwise this is meaningless. Neither Dany, not her people, except for Tyrion and Varys, whom are her advisors and cannot leave her now in the middle of the war, won't be able to do it. 

[Olorin81]

This has probably been said already, but Jon can't bend the knee without his supporters in the North getting very pissed at him and probably removing him as King. He's only King in the North as long as they say he is. There's no way they would accept a southern ruler. You have to remember the last Targaryen to rule in the South burned the North's Lord and his heir alive, Eddard Starks's father and older brother, Rickard and Brandon Stark. Not to mention the last ruler in the south beheaded Eddard himself, and then supplanted the Starks with the Boltons when the Starks were Kings of the North for hundreds of years before the Targaryens even showed up. So no, it's not as simple as just saying "Oh he should stop being stubborn and bend the knee"