Heavy D

Jon should bend his knees.

286 posts in this topic

55 minutes ago, I prefer summer said:

Some great points being made on both sides, although I think some views are driven by love/hate for the two characters.

 

I actually like both of them, and I can see both perspectives. Yes, Jon has made unpopular decisions before, and they have not worked out well for him. And while Danyiss growing on him, she hasn't proven herself to him to the same degree as she has to her loyal followers.

Dany may have the whole "I was born to rule" thing going on, but that's a logical way for her to think, given the times she lives in and how she was brought up. But there is another reason she wants the Westerosi to swear loyalty to her - survival. Think of all the Southerners who have tried to kill her up to now. And, for all she knows, Ned Stark was on board with Robert's plan to murder her. So, she has very good reason to mistrust Jon.

I think that both leaders will realize that they have to get past their impasse for the greater good. They need a united Westeros (and maybe Essos?) to fight the WW - fighting on two fronts, and giving the NK more dead bodies for his army isn't going to help - and they need to get to the "only fight that matters" sooner rather than later. I think they will find a compromise (someone suggested a Dornish solution) to protect both their interests.

At the risk of bringing down ridicule for quoting another show, there is a scene in S01E04 of Outlander that provides an example. Jamie risks angering both his uncles, and his own life, when being asked to swear fealty to one, which would put his in conflict with the second for succession to the leadership of the clan. This is how he sidesteps the problem and keeps the peace:

"Colum MacKenzie, I come to you as kinsman and as ally. But I give you no vow, for my oath is pledged to the name that I bear," Jamie tells his uncle, as the sound of metal echoes through the hall as the clansmen grab their daggers. "I give you my obedience as kinsman and as Laird and I hold myself bound to your word, so long as my feet rest on the lands of the clan MacKenzie."
 

I think Jon will offer Dany an alliance and support of her claim to the IT, while maintaining some kind of independence for the North. And yes, I think a marriage of convenience may be in the cards. Dany left Daario in anticipation of a marriage of convenience. And heirs are less important to the immediate future than cementing this alliance.

 

 

Finally someone who agree with.(I like the outlander example)

41 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Jon will not need to bend his knee after people knows he is a trueborn son of Rhaegar. He has much better claim so Dany will need to bend her knee to him. 

There is no time for Westeros to learn who Jon is... I don't know who else other than Bran can say the truth but still.. Daenerys has a claim too.. So does Jon. No one doubt Daenerys being a Targaryen, but some people who don't want to believe he is a Targaryen will question his claim. Cersei has the throne right now.. They can claim for Aerys throne, but as long as Cersei hold the throne they need the right of conquest first.. The only one who try to conquer it is Daenerys. And even if Daenerys take the throne (she won't, because she will go North) Jon can claim nothing because she conquer it. If she want to say her claim is stronger she can say that King Aerys named Viserys his heir and passed over Rhaegar's children, and King Viserys named her Princess of Dragonstone and his heir.. But this is not gonna happen because there is no time for games.. The Long Night is almost here..

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6 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Interesting, although it would be even riskier than going to Dragonstone. But I did wonder if the preview was purposely misleading us: when Varys tells Tyrion "You need to make her listen," is he talking about Dany or Cercei? Or is Jamie in that conversation, and are they trying to convince him to make his sister see reason?

I totally think they're talking about Cersei.

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6 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Finally someone who agree with.(I like the outlander example)

There is no time for Westeros to learn who Jon is... I don't know who else other than Bran can say the truth but still.. Daenerys has a claim too.. So does Jon. No one doubt Daenerys being a Targaryen, but some people who don't want to believe he is a Targaryen will question his claim. Cersei has the throne right now.. They can claim for Aerys throne, but as long as Cersei hold the throne they need the right of conquest first.. The only one who try to conquer it is Daenerys. And even if Daenerys take the throne (she won't, because she will go North) Jon can claim nothing because she conquer it. If she want to say her claim is stronger she can say that King Aerys named Viserys his heir and passed over Rhaegar's children, and King Viserys named her Princess of Dragonstone and his heir.. But this is not gonna happen because there is no time for games.. The Long Night is almost here..

It's actually impossible for Jon to prove his claim.  He doesn't look like a Targaryen.  And let's not forget that he is a bastard.  Rhaegar cannot legally marry Lyanna.  His wife, Ellia, was still alive.  They have two living children.  I.E. Rhaegar + Ellia was consumated and their children serve as the proof.  Besides, Jon is not cut out to rule.  That decision to put Umber and Karstark lands in the hands of children during a time of war was just plain stupid.  Those two castles are the first line of the defense against the Others when the wall comes down. 

So getting back to the author's point.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty to Dany.  Jon should do this in public, in front of the North and in front of Sansa.

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On 8/12/2017 at 5:56 PM, cade said:

 

She should've asked for more info, and Jon should've explained himself a lot better. As Davos admitted, it sounded "like nonsense." And Dany was preoccupied with just having learned that the North had chosen to rebel. She was very likely surprised to hear that, since they'd come all this way and she'd told Tyrion to put her demand for fealty in the summons.

But her authoritarianism conflicts with her desire to free and empower people. We already know she believes in democracy to some extent, as before leaving Meereen she ensured that the people there could choose their own leaders. She also easily gave up the Iron Islands after Yara agreed to some reforms. Tyrion didn't seem to like this.

Dany's logic of not holding children accountable for their parents' crimes is radical and very advanced for Westeros, where notions of collective guilt and ancestral grudges are commonplace. As Jon pointed out, if she is consistent she'll extend this thinking to obliterating the whole notion of birthright rulership, but that's another radical step I don't think is fair to expect her to take at this point. I'm not even sure that Jon fully grasped the implications of what he was saying. 

As for Dany's general arrogance and her attitude in that first meeting with Jon, to keep this post from getting much longer I'll just say I have no problem with people being bothered by that and I'm glad she's not perfect.

Granted, verbal communication isn't Jon's strong suit, but she didn't give him much of a chance either.  After he and Davos initially presented their case, she just went back to her I'm going to rule the 7 Seasons and you can't stop me.  Then Varys came in with the bad news and she dismissed them.

You make a good point that Dany didn't  know Tyrion didn't mention anything about pledging fealty in his summons to Jon, so she was totally unprepared for that.

Dany didn't inspire people in Essos to follow her by making demands of them.  You'd think she'd remember that.  And she sure didn't like it when Jon turned around her request not to hold her responsible for her father's crimes!  But I agree that Jon didn't even realize the full extent of his logic.

If anyone is this show was perfect, it would be very boring indeed.  Like I said before, I'm pulling for her to turn herself around.

On 8/12/2017 at 5:56 PM, cade said:

I agree that they are evidence of that. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was only trying to say that they aren't proof of anything that's happened in the thousands of years since. 

Oh, I apologize if you said the thousand years since and I missed it.

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9 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Some great points being made on both sides, although I think some views are driven by love/hate for the two characters.

 

I actually like both of them, and I can see both perspectives. Yes, Jon has made unpopular decisions before, and they have not worked out well for him. And while Danyiss growing on him, she hasn't proven herself to him to the same degree as she has to her loyal followers.

Dany may have the whole "I was born to rule" thing going on, but that's a logical way for her to think, given the times she lives in and how she was brought up. But there is another reason she wants the Westerosi to swear loyalty to her - survival. Think of all the Southerners who have tried to kill her up to now. And, for all she knows, Ned Stark was on board with Robert's plan to murder her. So, she has very good reason to mistrust Jon.

I think that both leaders will realize that they have to get past their impasse for the greater good. They need a united Westeros (and maybe Essos?) to fight the WW - fighting on two fronts, and giving the NK more dead bodies for his army isn't going to help - and they need to get to the "only fight that matters" sooner rather than later. I think they will find a compromise (someone suggested a Dornish solution) to protect both their interests.

At the risk of bringing down ridicule for quoting another show, there is a scene in S01E04 of Outlander that provides an example. Jamie risks angering both his uncles, and his own life, when being asked to swear fealty to one, which would put his in conflict with the second for succession to the leadership of the clan. This is how he sidesteps the problem and keeps the peace:

"Colum MacKenzie, I come to you as kinsman and as ally. But I give you no vow, for my oath is pledged to the name that I bear," Jamie tells his uncle, as the sound of metal echoes through the hall as the clansmen grab their daggers. "I give you my obedience as kinsman and as Laird and I hold myself bound to your word, so long as my feet rest on the lands of the clan MacKenzie."
 

I think Jon will offer Dany an alliance and support of her claim to the IT, while maintaining some kind of independence for the North. And yes, I think a marriage of convenience may be in the cards. Dany left Daario in anticipation of a marriage of convenience. And heirs are less important to the immediate future than cementing this alliance.

 

 

You make a good point about how she believes that Jon's father supported Robert's attempts to have her killed.  And no one was present in the throne room to correct her on that.

I love your example from Outlander.  I always loved the genius of that solution .  I don't know why Jon can't say if you will help us defeat the WW (cuz the IT won't matter if we don't), I vow to support your claim to the IT and ask my people to do the same.

The problem I see with a marriage alliance is that means co-habitating, and then how is he supposed to be warden of the north?  It's too far removed from KL for him to effectively lead it.

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5 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

You make a good point about how she believes that Jon's father supported Robert's attempts to have her killed.  And no one was present in the throne room to correct her on that.

I love your example from Outlander.  I always loved the genius of that solution .  I don't know why Jon can't say if you will help us defeat the WW (cuz the IT won't matter if we don't), I vow to support your claim to the IT and ask my people to do the same.

The problem I see with a marriage alliance is that means co-habitating, and then how is he supposed to be warden of the north?  It's too far removed from KL for him to effectively lead it.

Sansa can be Warden of the throne..

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