Heavy D

Jon should bend his knees.

288 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Who cares about names or who you believe is a true Targaryen etc. Daenerys can not deny his claim or vice versa, it does not work like that. Daenerys claim is questionable. Robert Baratheon took the throne from Aerys, and Viserys & Daenerys were exiled surely nulifying their right and claim.  

Daenerys is right to ask Jon to bend the knee and in theory he should to get what he wants, her to fight for him and the dragonglass. But he doesnt and in my opinion was right not to do so and should never.

Daenerys is not destined to sit on the Iron Thone.

No... She is not...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

If only there was a way for Dany and Jon to forge an alliance where he could remain KitN and she was Queen of the 7 kingdoms!

 

Hint Davos has observed the answer

Exactly. You hit it right on the head!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this has been a really well-done "rock and a hard place" kind of situation.  Dany is entirely in the right to ask Jon to bend the knee- she is the one supplying her army and dragons and while I think she's coming to like and trust Jon Snow, I'm still not sure she's at the point where she believes entirely in the White Walkers.

For his part, Jon is right in holding off until he gets to know Dany better.  Jon obviously does not care about the throne or being called King, he only wants to protect the Northmen and beat the White Walkers.  

I think the show has done a great job in its limited time of showing these competing impulses by Jon and Dany and how they are getting closer to agreeing on it.  Tyrion told Jon to talk to some of Dany's advisors/supporters to understand her better- Jon did just that this week with Missandei.  Tyrion told Dany Jon is trustworthy and a potential ally and she needs to work on cultivating that- she did that these past few weeks and is coming to like and trust Jon.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Davos says 'does not matter what skeleton sits the Iron Throne'.

Things are about to get out of hand.

I think Jon's excuses are moot. Make the gesture now and sort it out later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Attitude said:

True, as far as we know, Jon isn't aware of this.

I'm not talking about the Stark line. If Jon is legit (which I assume will be proven), he can easily overcome his bastard theory part by martying anyone who wants to (I wouldn't even be surprised if a Stark lady would become his wife). 
 

Attitude, I get where you are coming from on this one.   I just think from what we've seen of Jon, whether he is is proven to be legitimate or not (and again, I think it's almost inevitable in the show that he will learn of his heritage and likely that he is legitimate), having children is super low on his list of priorities.  He may have other desires, as we've seen from his brooding/flirting with Dany, but his main goal is defeating the Night King and securing peace and safety for the North and by extension the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.  And from his character arc, I don't see how finding out he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and legitimate would change his mission and focus.  

Also, if you're assuming Jon being legit will be proven, there won't be any bastard theory to overcome, because in that scenario it's been proven and accepted by whoever it matters to. ^_^

And while cousin marriage is perhaps no less strange than aunt-nephew marriage, it seems like most of the evidence points away from Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya, at least in the show world.  Both Sansa's and especially Arya's character arcs don't suggest any romantic pairing with Jon in the show.  Whereas the case for Jon/Dany is littered with evidence, motive, opportunity, and now attraction.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As others mentioned, the major practical reason that prevents Jon to bend the knee now is that there is a high probability that it will be a moot act, because the North will not follow. He just had to unite the North, most people did not agree that he went south to see Danny, and they already have Samsa, Arya and Bran. Bending the knee will sound more as a defection than an act that represents the north.

If he speaks with the Northern lords and them he bends the knee that will make some sense...(not saying that it is a good idea or that will gonna happen).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

We can see that Jon's relationships with the Wildings has really formed his personality. He watched Mance refuse to take a knee to Stannis.  We watched him heed Tormund's advice on how to bury Ygrette.  We saw him fight along with not-Val and even with the Thenns.  We watched his friendship grow with WunWun.  We saw Jon mercy-kill Mance in defiance of Stannis.  

My point is that Dany spouts democracy but Jon has lived it.  Damy frees the slaves but then lives off the adulation.  Jon tells nobody about his resurrection.  Jon has no need for what Dany is currently selling (herself).  He may, later, or more likely, she will.

No kneeling for Jon.

  

Edited by lakin1013

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

That was their first meeting. Now he is actually starting to know her both by talking to Dany herself and as Tyrion suggested by talking to the people close to Dany such as Missandei.

 

So what? Do you think that she deserves "bending knees". 
Messandei is no one to Jon or Davos. Do you usually believe judgement of a stranger rather than your own experience?
That's why I wrote that she "not yet" deserves any kind of loyalty from Jon. And for now he acts on behalf of people who chose him and should not and frankly it would be really stupid to bend the knee just after a former slave-girl whom Dany freed told how good Dany is (also there is a possibility that all those she freed could be just "blind"). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

He watched Mance refuse to take a knee to Stannis.

  

Where is Mance btw? I totally forgot about him...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Count Winter said:

Where is Mance btw? I totally forgot about him...

He's serving as Hand of the Queen to Cersei now. Doing a fabulous Job I must add.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Gala said:

So what? Do you think that she deserves "bending knees". 
Messandei is no one to Jon or Davos. Do you usually believe judgement of a stranger rather than your own experience?
That's why I wrote that she "not yet" deserves any kind of loyalty from Jon. And for now he acts on behalf of people who chose him and should not and frankly it would be really stupid to bend the knee just after a former slave-girl whom Dany freed told how good Dany is (also there is a possibility that all those she freed could be just "blind"). 

They are heading in that direction. Why do you think they showed Jon with absolutely no response to Dany in that cave?  Why include that conversation with Missandei and show Davos being impressed with what she had to say? They are slowly building up to it whether some people don't like it or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

He's serving as Hand of the Queen to Cersei now. Doing a fabulous Job I must add.

Now I got it.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Now I got it.....

:P:P:P:P..... as the saying goes you cant educate pork....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Jon had knelt when he first met Dany it would  be her chucking Northerners at the Lannisters. Putting aside the impending dead, the  North has seen to much war.

Also I think back to s5 when Tormund said Jon wont kneel again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moot point.  Everyone will be rallying around Jon in the end for the fight against the White Walkers.  Not to mention, the show isn't exactly being subtle with hints to Jon's true heritage which only makes it more likely that in the end Dany will be the one to do the actual bending. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, you assume that Dany can defeat the White Walkers all by herself. And you assume that Dany has no incentive  to stop the white walkers in the North, rather than letting them get into the South where they would likely do much more damage because the South’s greater population.

These are two highly questionable propositions.

And of course, as usual, by some, competing disregarding the role of Bran in all this.

Now personally I think a re-unification of the North with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms could work as 1) Dany has acknowledged Aerys was a nut, 2) and acknowledged his crimes. Those acknowledgements would seem to me to go along way in about bringing an agreement between the North and Dany.

However, if I were Jon I’d probably bulk at the idea that House Stark owes House Targaryen fealty forever, no matter the circumstances. And it seems to me, that this is a point where many of Dany’s fan’s get all mixed up. Nobody would seriously contest the idea that Dany had the right to do a permanent regime change in SB, but then for some odd reason those same people would deny the people in Westeros, specifically the Northeners, the same right when faced with tyranny.

And Dany accusing other people of “pride” is really like the pot calling the kettle black.

They would be, if I in fact assumed them. Which I don't. 

Daenerys can't defeat the white walkers alone and without the North, but the North can't defeat the white walkers alone and without her either. I have learned on this board that I must give a dumb impression, but how exactly would the 'we need to stand together if we hope to defeat our common enemy' mantra go past me when Davos and Jon have been beating this one line in their every scene? The whole POINT of the white walker issue is that it's resolution requires houses and characters who previously fought against one another to put past transgressions behind and stand together. Hence, the northern lords need to take the stick out of the arses and accept Daenerys. 

Daenerys will have an incentive as soon as she realizes how great this threat is. The first time she heard of this idea was from an unknown man who rules half the land she wants to conquer and asks for her help without offering anything in return. Is she at this point supposed to throw away her westeros map and run to help a man he doesn't know against an enemy she never heard of? 

And I'm sure everybody will have higher regard for the role of Bran in this as soon as he starts doing something other than sitting, brooding and giving creepy hints about how he knows everything, without saying literally anything of importance. 

I don't know if you watched episode 2, that's exactly what Daenerys did. She acknowledged Aerys's crimes and condemned him as an evil man and separated herself from him. 

Yes, that's perfectly correct, the only difference is that Daenerys didn't ask for the masters help while changing the regime to their disadvantage. This is essentially the same as Mance Rayder asking the NW and Stannis to let them through the Wall, give them land to farm and live on, but they won't kneel. Give us everything we need, but we won't do what you ask. That's not how life goes.

and the unquestionable fact that Daenerys is a stuck-up, conceited, arrogant bitch doesn't justify the north's reluctance to meet her terms. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

They are heading in that direction. Why do you think they showed Jon with absolutely no response to Dany in that cave?  Why include that conversation with Missandei and show Davos being impressed with what she had to say? They are slowly building up to it whether some people don't like it or not.

Yes, probably, that is what it is. We'll see very soon
I also can't see Jon admiring Dany yet, as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Jon should have bent his knees when he first met Daenerys.  He's out of excuses.  If I were Dany, I would let Jon and the north battle the white walkers on their own for a while.  Then let's see if that shithead Yohn Royce, Sansa, and Petyr Baelish still resists.  I would not help Jon unless he bends the knee in front of all the north to see.

I agree.  The north is the one in the direct path of the white walkers.  They're the ones who will be the first casualties.  Their lands are the hardest to defend against the white walkers.  So yeah, let those prideful northerners face the white walkers alone for a while.  Even Sansa will change her tune and start begging Dany for help.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John will absolutely bend his knees, guaranteed.

 

Unless they go Cowgirl or Standing Doggie Style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I think this has been a really well-done "rock and a hard place" kind of situation.  Dany is entirely in the right to ask Jon to bend the knee- she is the one supplying her army and dragons and while I think she's coming to like and trust Jon Snow, I'm still not sure she's at the point where she believes entirely in the White Walkers.

 

Jon is, I think, unlikely to bend the knee anytime soon as an important theme of both the show and the book is kingship, birthright, and royal obligation.   We see this in the Wildlings refusal to kneel, a viewpoint which Jon has clearly always been sympathetic to, we see it in Jamie's decision to kill the mad King as he prepared to burn his people, we saw it even with Tywin as he instructed Joffrey.  Can a king refuse to protect the people he claims kingship over simply because they refuse obedience?  Joffrey would have said yes.  Do we really think the show or the books are leading us to the point where Daenerys says there same?  

We've seen all this played out before in the north.  Stannis bullheadedly demanding that Mance and the Wildlings bend the knee 

Jon himself was in Daenerys's position as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  He needed the help of the (far) North, he saw it as part of his duty to protect even the Wildlings because they are within the world of men.  He let them behind the wall -- gave them his protection -- without requiring them to bend the knee.  

I think the show and books both are leading us to the point where Daenerys is forced to recognize that her right to rule can't come from birthright it can come only from the fact that she protects her people and so they consent to her rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now