a1andrew

Theory about resolution of "Beast of Stone" Prophecy

205 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Why would fAegon use a stallion as a device on his banner he claims to be a Targ not Bracken. 

Aegor's Golden Company is sworn to Aegon. 

5 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Also based on what you say Rhaego would have dark hair and not silver. Genetics, what genetics? Do you know which genes are recessive and wihch are dominant? This is a fantasy series not a biology book. Characters look like the way they are look like because of GRRM not genetics. And copper skin and silver hair pretty much says a Dothraki/Valyrian mix. 

Absolutely. According to Tristan Rivers, the plan was to have Viserys Targaryen joining the Golden Company with Dothraki screamers. 

5 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

I hate to repeat myself but not everything has to be different the it seems. Please stop seeing allegories that isn't there and stop looking for something else when things makes sense.

Why do you let this bother you? Have a peach. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Why do you let this bother you? Have a peach. 

I am not bothered but reading interesting posts in this forum was among my favorite things to do. I am not very active in this forum but occasionally love to read what other fans have to say. Unfortunately theories that has been posted lately is frankly bs. Bunch of what ifs and crackpot theories that based on a very stretched interpretation of a minor detail.

I prefer quality over quantity. I don't have any power to stop people from posting whatever is in their minds. I am merely suggesting we should be more selective on things we say. Because garbage tends to pile up.

Lastly do not use real world science as evidence to support your theories please. In a world with dragons and a gigantic wall that in reality couldn't even exist due to cubic metre rule if you suggest a theory that based on Mendelian inheritance i call that bs.

Edited by Wolf of The Wall
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Posted (edited)

Chances are very high that the lies Dany is supposed to slay have everything to do with savior stuff and pretty much nothing with claims and the like.

I mean, George reinforces it again and again that those legal things are open to interpretation. Prophecy and destiny shouldn't care about any of that, nor be able to determine who is the rightful king, etc.

That said, the best guess for the stone beast at this point would still be Euron. He is the only character powerful enough to qualify as such an important lie if the lies are all going to be powerful rivals of Daenerys, and he is the only character in the game right now who might be powerful enough to set himself up as some sort of false savior/false hope in the fight against the Others. After all, he seems to be a powerful sorcerer in his own right.

When winter strikes and the dead walk he might have to offer certain people as much as Mother Mole offered the wildlings.

But if he is going to fulfill that particular prophecy we have no idea as of yet how or when he is going to do it.

There is still more than enough time for him - or any other character who might do it - to do so. Dany is not going to do any lie slaying in Westeros soon.

And if you look at it the cloth dragon wasn't yet cheered by a crowd, either. Aegon is still modest 'Prince Aegon' not King Aegon VI Targaryen.

Chances are that we are going to see Aegon cheered by the Kingslanders and other smallfolk, etc. when he is crowned and anointed King Aegon in the Great Sept of Baelor and subsequently parading through the streets of the city back to the Red Keep to claim the Iron Throne.

The stone beast scene also seems to refer to a person - the stone beast - doing a specific thing at a specific time. Stannis who isn't shown doing something specific in the vision, although it seems to refer to the drained Stannis who had already sacrificed as much of his life force as he could to kill both Renly and Penrose. That is what the fact that the vision Stannis lacks a shadow seems to indicate.

But we'll have to wait and see. I don't think we have the necessary information to decide who is meant by that vision, and we certainly have no good idea what event is meant by the overall vision.

And by the way - I find the corpse and the ship to be much more difficult to decipher than the stone beast. That guy is likely going to become one of Dany's husbands.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Euron is certainly a possibility, but he has no connection to Stone, yet. Connington however is linked to greyscale, which is linked to the Stone Men, which are the result of the curse cast after the Towers of the Rhoynar cities were burned by the Valyrians.

Tenuous, I know, but I can't figure out any other connection to Stone.

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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are very high that the lies Dany is supposed to slay have everything to do with savior stuff and pretty much nothing with claims and the like.

I mean, George reinforces it again and again that those legal things are open to interpretation. Prophecy and destiny shouldn't care about any of that, nor be able to determine who is the rightful king, etc.

That said, the best guess for the stone beast at this point would still be Euron. He is the only character powerful enough to qualify as such an important lie if the lies are all going to be powerful rivals of Daenerys, and he is the only character in the game right now who might be powerful enough to set himself up as some sort of false savior/false hope in the fight against the Others. After all, he seems to be a powerful sorcerer in his own right.

When winter strikes and the death walk he might have to offer certain people as much as Mother Mole offered the wildlings.

But if he is going to fulfill that particular prophecy we have no idea as of yet how or when he is going to do it.

There is still more than enough time for him - or any other character who might do it - to do so. Dany is not going to do any lie slaying in Westeros soon.

And if you look at it the cloth dragon wasn't yet cheered by a crowd, either. Aegon is still modest 'Prince Aegon' not King Aegon VI Targaryen.

Chances are that we are going to see Aegon cheered by the Kingslanders and other smallfolk, etc. when he is crowned and anointed King Aegon in the Great Sept of Baelor and subsequently parading through the streets of the city back to the Red Keep to claim the Iron Throne.

The stone beast scene also seems to refer to a person - the stone beast - doing a specific thing at a specific time. Stannis who isn't shown doing something specific in the vision, although it seems to refer to the drained Stannis who had already sacrificed as much of his life force as he could to kill both Renly and Penrose. That is what the fact that the vision Stannis lacks a shadow seems to indicate.

But we'll have to wait and see. I don't think we have the necessary information to decide who is meant by that vision, and we certainly have no good idea what event is meant by the overall vision.

And by the way - I find the corpse and the ship to be much more difficult to decipher than the stone beast. That guy is likely going to become one of Dany's husbands.

Certainly, just as difficult, if not more so as you suggest. A lot of folks who have read The Foresaken, Winds believe that Aeron fits the bill, but I don't see it, unless the vision of Aeron simply points toward Euron. But we are going off-topic, I think. 

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8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Euron is certainly a possibility, but he has no connection to Stone, yet. Connington however is linked to greyscale, which is linked to the Stone Men, which are the result of the curse cast after the Towers of the Rhoynar cities were burned by the Valyrians.

Tenuous, I know, but I can't figure out any other connection to Stone.

Euron is of House Greyjoy of the Iron Islands. And Euron claims, that he is the Storm. Stone, iron, storm--all three of those are typically grey. 

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14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Euron is certainly a possibility, but he has no connection to Stone, yet. Connington however is linked to greyscale, which is linked to the Stone Men, which are the result of the curse cast after the Towers of the Rhoynar cities were burned by the Valyrians.

Tenuous, I know, but I can't figure out any other connection to Stone.

The problem with all those alternatives - Shireen, Connington, some literal animated stone dragon, etc. - people have come up would put the stone beast with one of the already existing factions. Sure, there could be split amongst those, etc. but chances are that those three lies are going to become important and powerful threats in their own right and on the basis of their own power.

And from that point of view Euron is the only other big player in town. It is not that likely another such character is going to be introduced and subsequently built up nor is there a big chance that one of the other not-so-powerful-players will suddenly rise to the Stannis-Aegon-Euron level.

If it is Euron the vision could point to him taking Dragonstone and resurrecting/waking the Cannibal there. Or perhaps one of the stone dragons of the citadel of Dragonstone.

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Certainly, just as difficult, if not more so as you suggest. A lot of folks who have read The Foresaken, Winds believe that Aeron fits the bill, but I don't see it, unless the vision of Aeron simply points toward Euron. But we are going off-topic, I think. 

Well, not that far.

The interesting thing there is that Euron being the stone beast and Euron becoming Dany's husband would, most likely, be mutually exclusive. Dany is most likely not going to marry one of the lies she is going to slay. And people understand this which is why very few people have ever suggested that Jon is the cloth dragon or that Dany might end up marrying Aegon (as the cloth dragon) or Stannis.

It could be a reference to Victarion by means of the ship and Aeron but that idea feels very odd for me, too (mostly because I think Vic is not all that long for this world).

Perhaps it is going to turn out to be confluence of events referring to a bunch of sad/dead people traveling on ships towards Daenerys - Aemon, Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, etc.

Hizdahr and Daario clearly were not predicted/foreseen by the Undying, so there is even a chance that this second husband guy doesn't show up.

I think there is a chance that Dany might take another Dothraki khal for a consort now that she has returned to them, or that she ends up marrying Daario upon her return to Slaver's Bay (assuming he lives), deciding to force the world to abide by her rules rather than the other way around.

But the three heads of the dragon thing makes it not that unlikely that she will also be forced to marry Tyrion (if he is Aerys' son and a dragonrider). It has already been established that she is going to intend to marry the men - she thinks they are men - who are the two other heads and the future riders of her dragons. So whoever claims one of her dragons has a very good shot to marry her, never mind whether he or she is truly one of the dragon heads. She will believe that he is, and most likely be correct in one case (Tyrion) and dead wrong in the case of the other (who is going to be revealed to be Jon when they finally hook up).

That makes Brown Ben Plumm, Victarion, and Tyrion not all that unlikely candidates for her hand. But, really, Vic cannot even mount one of the dragons at this point. He is far too big and heavy, especially in armor. Drogon could hardly carry Dany back in ADwD. 

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3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Imagery of Greyjoy and grey lips doesn't fit with stone?

Honestly, not really. To signify a Greyjoy, it is important that the colour grey remains restricted to lips, and in that case, the person might be described as having stone lips but not as a stone person/beast. Such a description might fit with one afflicted by greyscale, or with a person somewhat more closely with stone/rock/mountain imagery, like Gregor due to his nick or LF due to the old family sigil etc.

Furthermore, the beast is not just stone but also great. IIRC, in the TWOW chapter vision Euron is described as oversized, but it is the only time I can recall that he could be described as great.

BTW, I could even go with stone signifying ice here. Has Dany ever seen ice?

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Throwing oneself off a tower to try and fly doesn't fit with a beast taking flight from a great tower?

That might, so does Ashara qualify? :D 

However, if the beast took wing, not just flight, I'd actually expect it to have wings.

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

 How about a kraken faced man for a beast?

That single part might fit, but the others don't, and krakens are not exactly known for breathing fire. That's why - wings, fire - I think the beast is a dragon.

 

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Euron is of House Greyjoy of the Iron Islands. And Euron claims, that he is the Storm. Stone, iron, storm--all three of those are typically grey. 

Now that is a very loose connection. Do you have any example where a depiction of a storm uses stone imagery? 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are very high that the lies Dany is supposed to slay have everything to do with savior stuff and pretty much nothing with claims and the like.

Well... if this is the case, then it is Dany herself because she is the third person considered to be PTWPess.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

BTW, I could even go with stone signifying ice here. Has Dany ever seen ice?

Well, Galazza Galare, a native of Meereen, thinks about snow and uses it as a metaphor... 

Quote

"Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow." 

(At the risk of going waaayy off topic, what prophecy do you suppose Galazza was referring to, and why would a Ghiscari use "snow" as a descriptive term? A hint from the author, perhaps?) 

21 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Now that is a very loose connection. Do you have any example where a depiction of a storm uses stone imagery? 

As a general rule, all of my connections are loose. :P All I am saying is that Euron is associated with iron and storms, and like stone, those things are grey, with which Euron is also associated. 

21 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well... if this is the case, then it is Dany herself because she is the third person considered to be PTWPess.

What about the special snowflake? (The one they apparently foresaw in Meereen ;).) 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well... if this is the case, then it is Dany herself because she is the third person considered to be PTWPess.

Not really. She is the addressee of the prophecy. The one who is fulfilling it. The Undying know she is the promised princess. That and her destiny is what makes her such a delicious snack, presumably.

The idea that the addressee of the prophecy is also one of the lies the addressee of the prophecy is supposed to slay is overly convoluted and makes actually little sense in context. It doesn't go 'mother of dragons, lie to be slain (by the mother of dragons?)', or does it?

The prophecy also doesn't talk about people who are proclaimed the promised prince(ss), it talks about lies. Aegon and Euron have yet to claim that they will save mankind (they might do or not do it) but eventually they all have to show their colors.

The true savior is going to unmask/slay/cast down the false saviors, perhaps even with the help of the two other dragon heads, her companions/consorts. The curious absence of Jon (who only shows up as the blue flower) and Tyrion makes it not unlikely that the phrase 'the dragon has three heads' refers to one savior in three forms or shapes (a literal trinity in the sense of the Trinity - one guy and three guys at the same time) rather than one savior and two companions.

The usual problem a lot of people have with that Jon thing is that Jon has to be the big super savior hero - something he certainly will be in the whole male hero fighter role thing - and thus also has to be the promised prince guy. Dany cannot be that. Aside from the fact that it doesn't make any sense to assume Dany isn't the promised princess (she has fulfilled pretty much all the parts of the prophecy we know about) it actually fits nicely in with the dangers of prophecy as well as the twists and turns of the series to take 'the dragon has three heads' as a hint that there is one savior is three persons rather than to make the mistakes of the people in the books to look for one single savior (as both Melisandre and the red priests in Volantis are doing).

In that sense, the prophecies/visions referring to Daenerys might not all be limited to her but also include things the other dragon heads will do in the future.

After all, why on earth is it a dragon with three heads and not three individual dragons - both on the banner and in the prophecy? Later Targaryens like Aegon II used their dragons as their personal sigil, so why didn't the Conqueror and his sister-wives do a similar thing? 

But in any case, we have six people here - Dany and the two other dragons heads (one of them being Jon) who stand in opposition to the blue-eyed king without a shadow (Stannis), the cloth dragon in front of a cheering crowd (Aegon) and the stone beast breathing shadow fire (unclear).

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The best fit I can think for a winged stone beast is a gargoyle, to which Tyrion is likened to. And he is condemned as a kingslayer, which he owns up to even though he is innocent of that.

The smoking tower could be the Hightower which has a beacon on it. Otherwise any tower or castle that has been burnt could fit.

I've got nothing good for shadow fire. I have a notion that it might tie to Tyrion and him causing conflict and chaos with his mouth. Some sort of epidemic would be a better fit.

I don't think the subject of this prophecy is meant to be recognizable as yet.

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, Galazza Galare, a native of Meereen, thinks about snow and uses it as a metaphor... 

A good point, but being familiar with snow doesn't mean that one has seen a huge chunk of ice.

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

(At the risk of going waaayy off topic, what prophecy do you suppose Galazza was referring to, and why would a Ghiscari use "snow" as a descriptive term? A hint from the author, perhaps?) 

No idea, but I suppose that it is their variation on PTWP/AA, since the stuff seems rather widespread.

 

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As a general rule, all of my connections are loose. :P All I am saying is that Euron is associated with iron and storms, and like stone, those things are grey, with which Euron is also associated. 

Yeah but I am afraid that for some analogies, colour itself is insufficient and one thing cannot stand for the other.

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What about the special snowflake? (The one they apparently foresaw in Meereen ;).) 

Somewhere upthread, I linked a topic proposing just that. Mr Know-Nothing has a big fat lie to be slain for sure.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

The best fit I can think for a winged stone beast is a gargoyle, to which Tyrion is likened to. And he is condemned as a kingslayer, which he owns up to even though he is innocent of that.

The smoking tower could be the Hightower which has a beacon on it. Otherwise any tower or castle that has been burnt could fit.

I've got nothing good for shadow fire. I have a notion that it might tie to Tyrion and him causing conflict and chaos with his mouth. Some sort of epidemic would be a better fit.

I don't think the subject of this prophecy is meant to be recognizable as yet.

Tyrion could fit quite nicely, especially if he is a Targaryen bastard, and carrying greyscale. 

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8 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Books is written by George R. R. Martin not Gregor Mendel. And what about copper skin?

Egg is described as developing a dark bronze tan after spending the summer in Dorne. One doesn't need Dothraki ancestry to have copper skin. You'll notice the clearer sign of Dothraki parentage, their distinct eye shape, was absent from the vision. Don't you wonder why?

 

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ooh, I never thought, nor have I ever seen any suggestion, of putting Petyr in this vision. 

Well he isn't directly, just as Varys isn't directly in Dany's visions regarding Aegon.

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3 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

I am not bothered but reading interesting posts in this forum was among my favorite things to do. I am not very active in this forum but occasionally love to read what other fans have to say. Unfortunately theories that has been posted lately is frankly bs. Bunch of what ifs and crackpot theories that based on a very stretched interpretation of a minor detail.

Aren't you the guy who suggested that the stone beast was a "what if" of Edric Storm being sacrificed?

I mean, let's all try to be self-aware here.

3 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Lastly do not use real world science as evidence to support your theories please. In a world with dragons and a gigantic wall that in reality couldn't even exist due to cubic metre rule if you suggest a theory that based on Mendelian inheritance i call that bs.

And if inheritance, specifically inheritance of hair color, wasn't already established as a plot element, you might have a point.

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1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

Egg is described as developing a dark bronze tan after spending the summer in Dorne. One doesn't need Dothraki ancestry to have copper skin. You'll notice the clearer sign of Dothraki parentage, their distinct eye shape, was absent from the vision. Don't you wonder why?

 

Ooh, and Aegon is fixing to get some, er... support from Princess Arainne of Dorne. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Aren't you the guy who suggested that the stone beast was a "what if" of Edric Storm being sacrificed?

I never suggested that. That is not my theory. I said stone beast that takes wing from smoking tower is believed to be what could have been if Edric Storm was sacrificed. Emphasis on believed to be. I simply pointed out there is an  already estabilished and much simple answer to OP's question about stone beast.

And inheritance was a plot point in a specific issue. And people who realted to that issue were from same ethnicity. There is no precedence of marriage between Dothraki and Valyrians i believe until Dany marries Drogo. I don't think any Valyrian was deigned to marry a horselord. So you can not use real world inheritance rules in a fantasy series of magical races.

Also sun tan and natural skin colour is not same. And tall lord in the prophecy is specifically said to have copper skin. And does fAegon even have tan skin. In any case you are twisting words to fit in your interpretation.

Edited by Wolf of The Wall
Grammar

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I'll stick with the caveat. I suspect Tommen will not live long enough to fave Daenerys. This is one of the toughest visions from the House of the Undying Ones to figure out. I can see that a Lannister could fit with the smoking tower element. And Gregor, a Lannister man, could be described a great stone beast. And since shadow can be associated with death, I can see the connection with breathing shadow fire. 

I would caution against your assumption that Gregor is Bran's giant. He does appear to be the most popular candidate, but Petyr is another verystrong candidate, and Tyrion is another possibility. 

Your theory is about as good as any other, I suppose, but I still like Euron for this. 

Thanks, hopefully we'll find out some day.

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Certainly, just as difficult, if not more so as you suggest. A lot of folks who have read The Foresaken, Winds believe that Aeron fits the bill, but I don't see it, unless the vision of Aeron simply points toward Euron. But we are going off-topic, I think. 

I thought that was less difficult, I just assumed that was Daario.  I only occasionally check the forums, but I thought others had speculated it was Daario too, although maybe there's a reason it couldn't be that I haven't seen. 

Three big clues for me 1. All have to be romantically involved with Dany, and Daario clearly was 2. On a ship, and Daario's being held captive on a ship and 3. Dead, and Daario is being held captive by a hostile power who has already executed captives, plus his time seems to be coming to a close.  

 

 

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