a1andrew

Theory about resolution of "Beast of Stone" Prophecy

205 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Nooooo. Come on, first storm and the last storm. Storm's End. Euron the godless man killing and supplanting all gods, Durran Godsgrief, defier of gods, particularly the sea and wind god. Sea and wind god, who particularly holds two gods, one for the sea and one for the wind -> storms?

Hightower is likely a prototype, a test run. Like Cragorn, like Falia. And probably there will be more. He's not blowing that horn himself until he's as sure as he can be of what it does, or is otherwise out of time. And a lot of water has to pass under the bridge before we get to the stone beast. The mummer's dragon has to rise and Dany has to do away with him first.

Oldtown makes more sense . Euron is about attack the city , that's where his reign start. 

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Euron has barely begun. He doesn't even have his horn with him. He doesn't have Dany. Hasn't got dragons with him. The stone beast is the culmination of his work. The citadel and Hightower is progress.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

Thank you. Actually, that is another idiom of the phrase take wing. It could work.

Thanks! :D

What do Stannis and Aegon have in common? Both have had the claim made about them that they are the PTWP. Seriously, why do so many people ignore that? Here is a quote that shows Rhaegar was making this claim (AFFC - Chapter 35):

And here is a quote that shows Dany knows about this claim (ACOK - Chapter 48):
 

So, Dany will have to forget that the only two pieces of information that she received from the HotU about Aegon was that he was the PTWP and one head of the dragon.

No. This is not a vision, it is a prophecy written by GRRM to describe a vision seen by Dany in the HotU. GRRM has already told us what was in the vision. You can spend your time thinking about all the different things that the stone could be, but GRRM has already told us it is stone. Stone comes in many colors, it is you who is saying the stone is grey. For all you know the stone is white or black or green. GRRM has given us all the elements of the vision and told us what they are since we cannot look at them ourselves.

It is a terrible point. Making assumptions about a "vision" that is written in a book is silly. As I pointed out, Ponzi Scheme is making the assumption that the stone is grey and making guesses based on that. Since we can't see what the beast looks like, we have to accept GRRM's description of it. Otherwise, we are just making shit up.

As far as Aegon's "vision", only about half of the people think it means Aegon is fake. We have the scene from the HotU that strongly suggests he is NOT fake, but for some reason, people keep ignoring it.

This doesn't make sense to me.  Aegon died, if Rhaegars son is TPTWP, that's Jon not Faegon.

Edit: I see from a later post of yours that you are suggesting that the vision indicates Aegon is real.  I don't see how that can be but if your locked on that opinion I guess there is no reason to discuss it.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2

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1 hour ago, bent branch said:

All right. I don't think it matters at all whether Aegon ever claims he is the PTWP or not, but if you think that is an important part of the process okay. What then do you think was significance of the vision in the HotU of Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon?

It makes Dany (and the reader) aware of the PTWP prophecy and Rhaegar's interest in it. I don't think it necessarily ties into the "slayer of lies" part anymore than the other visions did (e.g. the sad wolf head man or Aerys repeating "burn them all"). 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

<snip>

This is the sort of scenario that would change my mind (as long as the third 'lie' did something similar), I just don't think it will necessarily come to pass. The characters have always disregarded those stories as fiction until they're directly confronted with it, and even then a lot of them still act as if it wasn't of prime importance. I envision Stannis trying to win the war for the dawn himself while the south continues on unaware, disregarding the stories coming out of the north, until Stannis loses and they're left to deal with the fallout. 

(But I suppose most of them don't actually have to believe in the PTWP prophecy, Aegon just needs to advertise himself as such, like with Stannis)

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Euron has barely begun. He doesn't even have his horn with him. He doesn't have Dany. Hasn't got dragons with him. The stone beast is the culmination of his work. The citadel and Hightower is progress.

I disagree. The stone beast taking flight is the beginning. 

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54 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

(But I suppose most of them don't actually have to believe in the PTWP prophecy, Aegon just needs to advertise himself as such, like with Stannis)

Yeah, pretty much. The same with Euron, really. The man is not likely to actually fight the Others but he may promise people to save them from winter by bringing in food from Essos, using his magics to keep the cold at bay, etc.

And thinking about Euron - guys, one step at a time.

Do you really think Euron needs to attack Oldtown or the Arbor after he crushes the Redwyne fleet with magic? This is going to be a victory comparable to defeat of the Spanish armada. The largest and most powerful Westerosi fleet will be obliterated with minimal losses (presumably) on Euron's side.

That will sent more than a few ripple effects throughout the Reach. It should make Westeros itself tremble.

If you think Euron has to conquer the Arbor or Oldtown thereafter you are most likely very much mistaken. The man can show the world his smiling eye again. He could confirm the Hightowers and their bannermen in their lands and titles in exchange for them bending the knee. Like the Conqueror did back in the day. That's how you do your conquering. You show your strength but you are lenient when people meet your demands. If Euron ended up sacking Oldtown he would essentially lose everything he gained.

He might even show mercy to the Arbor, treating Mina Tyrell Redwyne and any other Redwynes he might capture after the fall of the island with honor. That way he could win the allegiance of all those people. They know he is there and they know he is not going to go away soon. They will have to work with him or risk losing all their wealth (or die).

If Euron was a brutish moron like Ramsay I'd buy the idea that he would slaughter a lot of people but he is not. He is a sadistic psychopath but he can restrain himself when he has to, and play the role of the nice guy when it suits him. And once the Redwynes are dealt with he can afford to be very generous. The southern regions of the Reach will then effectively belong to him because he is going to control the seas.

That could lead to the very weird situation that the Hightower-controlled portions of the Reach plus the Arbor end up declaring for Euron and fighting against Aegon while the northern parts of the Reach end up declaring for Aegon (with the Tyrells under Willas/Garlan being among the latter).

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For some reason when reading the replies to this my brain has decided to put the name of Bran in mind. 

I don't have the books to hand so I'm probably miss remembering things but doesn't Jojen describe him as the winged wolf? With regards to the burning tower, the library tower in Winterfell was set alight the same night Bran woke up, when he "flew". Could the great stone best not be a winged wolf? 

 

Not sure if it would fit the vision really but it just came into my mind. 

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1 hour ago, Faereth said:

For some reason when reading the replies to this my brain has decided to put the name of Bran in mind. 

I don't have the books to hand so I'm probably miss remembering things but doesn't Jojen describe him as the winged wolf? With regards to the burning tower, the library tower in Winterfell was set alight the same night Bran woke up, when he "flew". Could the great stone best not be a winged wolf? 

You are not mistaken; this option has been noted in previous threads.

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1 hour ago, Faereth said:

For some reason when reading the replies to this my brain has decided to put the name of Bran in mind. 

I don't have the books to hand so I'm probably miss remembering things but doesn't Jojen describe him as the winged wolf? With regards to the burning tower, the library tower in Winterfell was set alight the same night Bran woke up, when he "flew". Could the great stone best not be a winged wolf? 

 

Not sure if it would fit the vision really but it just came into my mind. 

 

24 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You are not mistaken; this option has been noted in previous threads.

I don't remember Bran waking up that night tho.  He didn't wake up until Catlyn had left WF.

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22 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

I never suggested that. That is not my theory. I said stone beast that takes wing from smoking tower is believed to be what could have been if Edric Storm was sacrificed. Emphasis on believed to be. I simply pointed out there is an  already estabilished and much simple answer to OP's question about stone beast.

I've literally never seen anyone except you suggest the what-if-Edric-Storm hypothesis. For the record, that has no bearing on how valid it is; I'm only giving you crap about it because you swaggered in here complaining about other people's ideas. I'm not sure why you're even here if listening to crackpot ideas doesn't entertain you. Other than crackpot ideas and shipping threads, there's nothing to discuss until more books show up, so maybe take down the attitude a notch.

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't remember Bran waking up that night tho.  He didn't wake up until Catlyn had left WF.

Well, yeah, but I was referring to the general idea of Bran as the beast. I don't recall the details.

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Posted (edited)

20 hours ago, bent branch said:

Thus, a great, stone beast could be interpreted to mean a powerful, merciless kraken.

While I don't agree that Euron = the Stone Beast, I will note that Beast was a fairly famous novel about a giant squid written by the Author of Jaws. It was published in 1991, five years before A Game of Thrones. It's not impossible that GRRM was influenced by this correlation.

Edited by Damon_Tor

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2 hours ago, Faereth said:

For some reason when reading the replies to this my brain has decided to put the name of Bran in mind. 

I don't have the books to hand so I'm probably miss remembering things but doesn't Jojen describe him as the winged wolf? With regards to the burning tower, the library tower in Winterfell was set alight the same night Bran woke up, when he "flew". Could the great stone best not be a winged wolf? 

Not sure if it would fit the vision really but it just came into my mind. 

The problem is that Bran is not likely going to qualify as a 'lie'. He may do horrible things down the line but I'm pretty sure he is never going to be a false savior. He will do whatever it takes to save mankind.

2 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

While I don't agree that Euron = the Stone Beast, I will note that Beast was a fairly famous novel written about a giant squid written by the Author of Jaws. It was published in 1991, five years before A Game of Thrones. It's not impossible that GRRM was influenced by this correlation.

I actually like that book.

But we'll have to wait and see. If Euron is the stone beast there is a pretty good chance we'll see him taking wing and breathing shadow fire in TWoW. Perhaps during the battle against the Redwyne fleet, perhaps some time later.

Just as we are going to see Aegon being cheered by a crowd in TWoW after he is reunited with Varys, the mummer holding the cloth dragon.

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I don't understand the argument that the Reach is at Euron's mercy as soon as he controls the sea. The Reach is a landbased kingdom. Only the Arbor has need of sea access. That's why the Redwynnes have such a large fleet. The rest of the Reach can ignore Euron as long as he sticks to the sea. He has to threaten the interior to make them even consider bending the knee to him. And he has nowhere near enough men to do that. I don't see the Hightowers swearing their strength to him just because he defeats the Redwynne fleet.

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1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

I've literally never seen anyone except you suggest the what-if-Edric-Storm hypothesis. For the record, that has no bearing on how valid it is; I'm only giving you crap about it because you swaggered in here complaining about other people's ideas. I'm not sure why you're even here if listening to crackpot ideas doesn't entertain you. Other than crackpot ideas and shipping threads, there's nothing to discuss until more books show up, so maybe take down the attitude a notch.

I have never produced any theories. I don't have patience for it. Longest post i've ever write is probably one you are reffering. I do love some well thought fan-fic though. My original reply in this thread was about OP's theory. You are the one started this argument by saying "Careful with the word proven" to me and factoring in genetics to the equation. Maybe you should stop taking yourself so seriously.

As i said above my original reply was not a complaint. Reason why i complained in my later reply simply it was the last straw. I do apologise if i sounded stuck up or did any wrong.

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8 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

I have never produced any theories. I don't have patience for it. Longest post i've ever write is probably one you are reffering. I do love some well thought fan-fic though. My original reply in this thread was about OP's theory. You are the one started this argument by saying "Careful with the word proven" to me and factoring in genetics to the equation. Maybe you should stop taking yourself so seriously.

As i said above my original reply was not a complaint. Reason why i complained in my later reply simply it was the last straw. I do apologise if i sounded stuck up or did any wrong.

I apologize as well for my part. I'm sure I over-reacted; I usually do. Science is my work and it annoys me when people use works like "proof" and "theory" and "literally" inappropriately. I feel it contributes to the problems we have discussing scientific issues today (ie "Global Warming is just a theory"). Language matters. When we use words outside their proper meaning and accept it when others do so we weaken our ability to use those words in the correct way when it matters, and there are real consequences for that.

I maintain that genetics is a reasonable argument, however. GRRM is a sci-fi writer at heart. He's the guy who made HBO toss out their concept art because evolution demands dragons have two legs, not four.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't understand the argument that the Reach is at Euron's mercy as soon as he controls the sea. The Reach is a landbased kingdom. Only the Arbor has need of sea access. That's why the Redwynnes have such a large fleet. The rest of the Reach can ignore Euron as long as he sticks to the sea. He has to threaten the interior to make them even consider bending the knee to him. And he has nowhere near enough men to do that. I don't see the Hightowers swearing their strength to him just because he defeats the Redwynne fleet.

I agree with your assessment, but feel Euron has to win.  To reconcile these beliefs I have come up with this. 

Euron defeats the Redwyn and Hightower fleets.  People seem to forget the Hightower fleet will be involved as well.

Garlan, thinking that Euron is about to be or has just been defeated at sea chooses this opportunity to try and retake the shields.  He does this using river barges and the like, non military vessels.  Euron being victorious and able to predict this comes down on Garlans fleet and destroys it, Garlan is killed by Harlaw with Nightfall.

Euron then has his men carry their longships overland to the Honeywine, where they sail down to Oldtown avoiding all the seafacing defenses and taking them by surprise.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2

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9 hours ago, bent branch said:

It is a terrible point. Making assumptions about a "vision" that is written in a book is silly. As I pointed out, Ponzi Scheme is making the assumption that the stone is grey and making guesses based on that. Since we can't see what the beast looks like, we have to accept GRRM's description of it. Otherwise, we are just making shit up.

As far as Aegon's "vision", only about half of the people think it means Aegon is fake. We have the scene from the HotU that strongly suggests he is NOT fake, but for some reason, people keep ignoring it

You're talking about this?

Quote

 

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 


I'm not ignoring it, I'm using it and on this bit at least I am convinced you are wrong. It is showing Rhaegar has misread his prophecies (which GRRM warns us about) and not for the first time. Originally he thought he himself was the prince that was promised, then he thought it was his son Aegon, but Aegon has nothing associated with Ice. It is of course Jon and presumably Rhaegar came to realise that. Do you actually believe Aegon with the golden company is genuinely Rhaegar's son?

As for the point about the vision not being a play on words, I am not exactly sure what you are saying as you seem to be going back on what you wrote before. I agree that since we can't see what the beast looks like we have to take it GRRMs description. The bit I thought Ponzi scheme had made a good point on was the bit I bolded, I don't necessarily believe the beast is simply grey (although it could be so long as it looks like stone). What I didn't like is the stretching into an overdose of symbolism. Daenerys saw a great stone beast taking wing and breathing shadow fire. That was what was in the vision. I don't think you should be twisting every single word to come up with a match. It could still well refer to Euron, but if it does I think there will be some important event that we have not seen yet that makes the vision much clearer, because compared to the others this doesn't feel right.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I apologize as well for my part. I'm sure I over-reacted; I usually do. Science is my work and it annoys me when people use works like "proof" and "theory" and "literally" inappropriately. I feel it contributes to the problems we have discussing scientific issues today (ie "Global Warming is just a theory"). Language matters. When we use words outside their proper meaning and accept it when others do so we weaken our ability to use those words in the correct way when it matters, and there are real consequences for that.

I maintain that genetics is a reasonable argument, however. GRRM is a sci-fi writer at heart. He's the guy who made HBO toss out their concept art because evolution demands dragons have two legs, not four.

I am not saying genetics is irrelevant. I am saying real world principals of inheritance such as light skin/light hair is reccessive dark skin/dark hair is dominant is not applicable is asoiaf. Let's look at presented interracial couples shall we:

Daeron II Good & Myriah Martell: Only one (Baelor Breakspear) of their children has Rhoynish features others have distinct Valyrian features.

Rhaegar Targaryen & Elia Martell: Rhaenys has Rhoynish features but Aegon has Valyrian features. So we can safely say Valyrian genes is dominant when they paired with Rhoynish ones.

Viserys I Targaryen & Aemma Arryn later Alicent Hightower: Their children also have distinct Valyrian features and i don't remember distinctively Andal looking king so i assume Valyrian genes dominant when paired with Andal genes too.

Aegon the Unworthy & Melissa Blackwood: They had three children but we only know Bloodraven's appearance and he is an albino.

Aegon the Unlikely & Betha Blackwood: Among their children only Duncan had dark hair rest of them all Valyrian looking. Also after generations of intermarrying with Andals how much First Men blood remain in Blackwoods is arguable.

Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark: They had only one child. And Jon looks more Stark then Targaryen. So Valyrian genes when compared to the First Men i think is inconclusive. We don't have enogh data to say anything conclusive.

Edited by Wolf of The Wall
I added Egg

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I agree with your assessment, but feel Euron has to win.  To reconcile these beliefs I have come up with this. 

Euron defeats the Redwyn and Hightower fleets.  People seem to forget the Hightower fleet will be involved as well.

Garlan, thinking that Euron is about to be or has just been defeated at sea chooses this opportunity to try and retake the shields.  He does this using river barges and the like, non military vessels.  Euron being victorious and able to predict this comes down on Garlans fleet and destroys it, Garlan is killed by Harlaw with Nightfall.

Euron then has his men carry their longships overland to the Honeywine, where they sail down to Oldtown avoiding all the seafacing defenses and taking them by surprise.

Yeah, I'm agreeing that Euron has to become a real threat, and therefore has to gain significant power somehow. Maybe even in the Reach. I just disagree (with those who state) that the mere defeat of the Redwynne fleet will be sufficient to achieve that. He needs something more.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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