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Forlong the Fat

Danaerys's Attack Made Perfect Geogrohaical Sense

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14 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

How does Danerys keep 200,000 men supplied on Dragonstone where Stannis barely survived?

Dude, they're making a show about the struggle for survival and control of the seven kingdoms. You wish they were making a show about how Dany gets her groceries. 

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16 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Dude, they're making a show about the struggle for survival and control of the seven kingdoms. You wish they were making a show about how Dany gets her groceries. 

No but i would like some sembelance of realism you cant feed 200,000 people on an island where nothing grows and i dont like people and armies teleporting everywhere.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

No but i would like some sembelance of realism you cant feed 200,000 people on an island where nothing grows and i dont like people and armies teleporting everywhere.

They brought a lot of food from Meereen and Dany has had Dothraki foraging parties bringing in more food from the day they landed. They don't show this because, again, the show is not about how Dany gets her groceries. 

 

Furthermore, Dragonstone has had humans living there for hundreds of years. Stannis kept his army (albeit a smaller one) for months. You can feed people on Dragonstone. I don't know if it's true or not that nothing grows there: I don't think anyone has said that in the show or books. And it's an island. People have come up with clever ways to eat on islands (which seem to elude you, but I will give you a hint: what lives in the water and tastes delicious?) for millennia. 

Edited by Forlong the Fat

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19 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

How does Danerys keep 200,000 men supplied on Dragonstone where Stannis barely survived?

200,000 men, thousands and thousands of horses and three big dragons.....

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On 8/15/2017 at 3:46 PM, John Suburbs said:

Everybody knew the Northern army was marching south. They were hardly undetected.

The feint at Riverrun worked because Robb sent a decoy army of mostly foot soldiers down the kingsroad while the horse made its way through friendly territory toward Riverrun. They were seen as liberators come to rescue them from the invading Lannister army, so no ravens were sent. Yes, they did a good job of taking out Jaime's outriders, which is a lot easier to do in the woodlands than in the wide open vistas of the Reach. From the terrain we saw in the show, you wouldn't even need outriders to see that army coming -- just one guy up on a hill would have been enough.

The Lannister/Tyrell army met at the headwaters of the Blackwater Rush and sailed to King's Landing quick as you please. That area had already been conquered by Tywin, so all of the castles, keeps and holdfasts would either be held by his men or empty. And even if they were still loyal to Riverrun, they wouldn't bother sending a message to King's Landing anyway.

Agreed that this is hardly the biggest blunder in the show, and I'm not complaining about it either. It's only television. But no, the way that battle played out, just like the Battle of the Bastards, there is no way any army that size could sneak up on you undetected.

Even if they landed their ships and only had to ride a few miles? From what Tarly said, the front of their column (the gold) was inside King's Landing and the back of it was about to cross the Blackwater. Coming from Highgarden, that would put them quite close to the sea, which means the Dothraki might only have a a few days' march to get to them, without passing a single large town or city. I get all the points you're making, I just don't think it is as unlikely as it's being made out to be based on the geography.

Of course, it could also be that the past three seasons have lowered my expectations for the show to the point that anything that isn't a total shit-show gets a pass.

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 4:53 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

To what destination would the ravens carry the message?  I say again, I don't think you know how ravens work.

Ravens carry messages from castle to castle. So the moment the smallfolk flee to the nearest holdfast, a rider is dispatched to the nearest lord and a raven is sent to the queen who sends a rider to Jaime. It takes a lot less time to do that than to ferry 10,000 men and horses to shore, get them into formation and march them across land -- especially if we are talking about landing near the Wendwater, which is at least a day's ride from King's Landing. 

 

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:13 PM, grandmazter3 said:

But we assume people wanted to warn the Lannisters. The Lannisters just massacred a very wealthy and probably popular family,  after blowing up the Great Sept. 

Yes, people will most certainly warn the only semblance of law and order they have when a humungous horde of rabid barbarians lands on their shore and starts marching inland.

I don't know what your politics are, but if you either hate the current president or the former, what would you do if you suddenly saw a flotilla of Russian warships tendering an army toward your beach house?

 

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:20 AM, mattnj81 said:

Even if they landed their ships and only had to ride a few miles? From what Tarly said, the front of their column (the gold) was inside King's Landing and the back of it was about to cross the Blackwater. Coming from Highgarden, that would put them quite close to the sea, which means the Dothraki might only have a a few days' march to get to them, without passing a single large town or city. I get all the points you're making, I just don't think it is as unlikely as it's being made out to be based on the geography.

Of course, it could also be that the past three seasons have lowered my expectations for the show to the point that anything that isn't a total shit-show gets a pass.

This would assume, of course, their neither Cersei nor Euron bothered to keep a single ship near Dragonstone or anywhere in the Blackwater bay, and none of the dozens of traders and other boaters bothered to report a huge convoy of ships streaming toward the capital.

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This would assume, of course, their neither Cersei nor Euron bothered to keep a single ship near Dragonstone or anywhere in the Blackwater bay, and none of the dozens of traders and other boaters bothered to report a huge convoy of ships streaming toward the capital.

Or that the invading fleet captured every ship they encountered to avoid word being sent back. I'm sure invading fleets throughout history have attempted stealth landings, some successful and some not.

Listen - after the light speed travel achieved by Gendry, a raven and the dragons this past week, the Dothraki attack is far from the silliest thing to happen this season. As I said, I get the improbability but I don't think it was an impossibility. If i didn't work for you, then you are of course entitled to that opinion and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just happen to disagree. 

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6 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

Or that the invading fleet captured every ship they encountered to avoid word being sent back. I'm sure invading fleets throughout history have attempted stealth landings, some successful and some not.

Listen - after the light speed travel achieved by Gendry, a raven and the dragons this past week, the Dothraki attack is far from the silliest thing to happen this season. As I said, I get the improbability but I don't think it was an impossibility. If i didn't work for you, then you are of course entitled to that opinion and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just happen to disagree. 

Of course, all rationality is suspended here, especially with the twin miraculous saves from last night. It makes for good television. But the OP brought it up, so...

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36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course, all rationality is suspended here, especially with the twin miraculous saves from last night. It makes for good television. But the OP brought it up, so...

I'm actually ok with the dragons showing up to save the day, because the the point was for NK to get his hands on one. It's just the way they went about it with the supersonic traveling that was just looney tunes. Eastwatch to Dragonstone is what, like 1500 miles one way? They couldn't have figured out a more logistically possible way to put those dragons north of the wall. Sheesh.

Anyway, I've said my peace on the Dothraki. Agree to disagree and hope the season finale is less ridiculous. 

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Ravens carry messages from castle to castle. So the moment the smallfolk flee to the nearest holdfast, a rider is dispatched to the nearest lord and a raven is sent to the queen who sends a rider to Jaime. It takes a lot less time to do that than to ferry 10,000 men and horses to shore, get them into formation and march them across land -- especially if we are talking about landing near the Wendwater, which is at least a day's ride from King's Landing. 

 

Yes, people will most certainly warn the only semblance of law and order they have when a humungous horde of rabid barbarians lands on their shore and starts marching inland.

I don't know what your politics are, but if you either hate the current president or the former, what would you do if you suddenly saw a flotilla of Russian warships tendering an army toward your beach house?

 

 

So it's only the Dothraki army that has travel time?  You're saying that someone who sees the army, goes to tell a lord, who dispatches a rider, who gets to someone with a raven, and then a message is sent to KL.  And when the Raven gets to KL--what happens then?  Someone would have ride out to the Lannister army to warn them.  It's not even slightly implausible that the Dotraki troops would ridden the short distance to the Lannister army in that period.  And that's assuming the Dothraki didn't take the obvious step of capturing or killing anyone who saw them, and shooting down ravens if necessary.

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21 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

So it's only the Dothraki army that has travel time?  You're saying that someone who sees the army, goes to tell a lord, who dispatches a rider, who gets to someone with a raven, and then a message is sent to KL.  And when the Raven gets to KL--what happens then?  Someone would have ride out to the Lannister army to warn them.  It's not even slightly implausible that the Dotraki troops would ridden the short distance to the Lannister army in that period.  And that's assuming the Dothraki didn't take the obvious step of capturing or killing anyone who saw them, and shooting down ravens if necessary.

No, because it would take the better part of a day just to tender 10,000 men and their horses and all their supplies onto shore, during which time news of the landing could easily reach the nearest castle on horseback. The castles on the map are not the only ones; there are thousands of them all over Westeros. Then a raven could make the flight from that castle, which has no Dothraki anywhere near it to shoot it down, to KL in a few hours. Since the gold had already been delivered to Cersei in KL that means the army is near enough to send a rider out post haste.

And this is assuming that neither Cersei nor Euron bothered to leave any ships near Dragonstone or on the bay to keep an eye on Dany's fleet, or that Jaime is stupid enough not to even post a scout up on a hill to see this massive horde bearing down on them in the wide open, virtually treeless terrain they are in.

So, sorry but no. It makes for great television but it is completely implausible.

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On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 3:30 PM, mattnj81 said:

I'm actually ok with the dragons showing up to save the day, because the the point was for NK to get his hands on one. It's just the way they went about it with the supersonic traveling that was just looney tunes. Eastwatch to Dragonstone is what, like 1500 miles one way? They couldn't have figured out a more logistically possible way to put those dragons north of the wall. Sheesh.

Anyway, I've said my peace on the Dothraki. Agree to disagree and hope the season finale is less ridiculous. 

And let's not forget about Benjen showing up for the second miraculous rescue.

By throwing logic out the window, D&D actually kill off the best part about Martin's literature: that things don't happen, or not happen, just because its needed to tell a great story, but because that's how they would happen given the character traits and circumstances they find themselves in.

And all this mad racing around the world is apparently due to the need for a shortened season. I still don't see why they couldn't have gone with another 10-episode season and added a little more color to it: a relationship between Theon and Greyworm; whatever happened to Yara and Elaria, perhaps some more time on Dragonstone for Jon to discovery he could ride a dragon as well, obviating the need for Dany to race north at supersonic speed... All kinds of ways they could have fleshed out the plot to make the action just a bit more believable.

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17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And let's not forget about Benjen showing up for the second miraculous rescue.

By throwing logic out the window, D&D actually kill off the best part about Martin's literature: that things don't happen, or not happen, just because its needed to tell a great story, but because that's how they would happen given the character traits and circumstances they find themselves in.

And all this mad racing around the world is apparently due to the need for a shortened season. I still don't see why they couldn't have gone with another 10-episode season and added a little more color to it: a relationship between Theon and Greyworm; whatever happened to Yara and Elaria, perhaps some more time on Dragonstone for Jon to discovery he could ride a dragon as well, obviating the need for Dany to race north at supersonic speed... All kinds of ways they could have fleshed out the plot to make the action just a bit more believable.

Agreed. There have been some truly head-scratching decisions this year. Past mistakes could be chocked up to something simply not working out (i.e. Sand Snakes), but this season seems like there are numerous times when a conscious decision is made that is obviously wacky. It is what it is I guess, we just have to accept what we get and wait for TWOW.

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