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One thing I don't get about the Dany/Lannister thing


Pandean

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Dany always does things that just makes things "ok". You can argue that she didn't attack innocent people and only attacked armies. It always leaves me very unsatisfied and frustrated with her.  I wouldn't have a problem with it if she really just said yes, I'm a conqueror and I don't care, but this whole savior nonsense about her, it just rubs me the wrong way.

You can just see it, the way Tyrion looked horrified, and Dany looked smug on that Dragon, she enjoyed it and wanted to have a win for no purpose other than having a win.

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13 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

You aren't missing anything.  It was a very typical Dany kind of move,  taking a middle ground position that could be open to interpretation.  Myself,  I think it violated the spirit of the advice Jon and Tyrion gave her. In fact,  I think the key to interpreting the scene can be found in Tyrion's discomfort at witnessing the battle.  To that end,  I think the dragons are meant to represent the horrors of disproportionate use of force.   

You can interpret that scene as Tyrion being a hypocrite since he had no problem burning hundreds of Stannis men alive with wildfire in Blackwater Bay. 

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7 minutes ago, Crona said:

Dany always does things that just makes things "ok". You can argue that she didn't attack innocent people and only attack armies. It always leaves me very unsatisfied and frustrated with her.  I wouldn't have a problem with it if she really just said yes, I'm a conqueror and I don't care, but this whole savior nonsense about her, it just rubs the wrong way.

You can just see it, the way Tyrion looked horrified, and Dany looked smug on that Dragon, she enjoyed and wanted to have a win for no purpose other than having a win.

I really can't see the whole gentle heart, savior, everyone loves her Dany that everyone else is talking about.....

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5 minutes ago, Crona said:

Dany always does things that just makes things "ok". You can argue that she didn't attack innocent people and only attack armies. It always leaves me very unsatisfied and frustrated with her.  I wouldn't have a problem with it if she really just said yes, I'm a conqueror and I don't care, but this whole savior nonsense about her, it just rubs the wrong way.

You can just see it, the way Tyrion looked horrified, and Dany looked smug on that Dragon, she enjoyed and wanted to have a win for no purpose other than having a win.

The problem is that this is never addressed in the show. Yes Tyrion looked horrified but so far in the show Dany has just been presented as the savior, and he actions have rarely been questioned. She is portrayed in universe as doing the "just" thing. Even if she murders innocents it is twisted around to fit her weird sense of justice. This same story could be very easily told from a POV that describes all of the terrible things Dany did, all of the innocents she crucified, killed, or burned to get her "justice" but the show hasn't gone there yet. She is always shown as in the right. 

Now that could change given the conversation we see between Tyrion and Varys in next week's episode and I hope it does. Because this show would lose so much of what makes it unique if it does not force the viewer to question if Dany is right, if she deserves to rule, and if she isn't just as cruel as other characters we've seen. 

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16 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

You can interpret that scene as Tyrion being a hypocrite since he had no problem burning hundreds of Stannis men alive with wildfire in Blackwater Bay. 

Tyrion did what he had to do to defend King's Landing. When you look at his face during Blackwater, he didn't enjoy it. He was repulsed by it.

15 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I really can't see the whole gentle heart, savior, everyone loves her Dany that everyone else is talking about.....

Yea, I feel like its a cult.  Jon and Davos are buying it too smh...

14 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

The problem is that this is never addressed in the show. Yes Tyrion looked horrified but so far in the show Dany has just been presented as the savior, and he actions have rarely been questioned. She is portrayed in universe as doing the "just" thing. Even if she murders innocents it is twisted around to fit her weird sense of justice. This same story could be very easily told from a POV that describes all of the terrible things Dany did, all of the innocents she crucified, killed, or burned to get her "justice" but the show hasn't gone there yet. She is always shown as in the right. 

Now that could change given the conversation we see between Tyrion and Varys in next week's episode and I hope it does. Because this show would lose so much of what makes it unique if it does not force the viewer to question if Dany is right, if she deserves to rule, and if she isn't just as cruel as other characters we've seen. 

Dany was my favorite in the beginning but quickly derailed for me. And its because this overblown savior aspect of her that I just never got. I feel like its a lot of white washing with her, and an aspect of the story that's really weak.  It would be nice of someone was to ever call her out on her hypocrisy, and although she claims she is different, her actions are all the same as previous rulers. The show is really making it seem like Dany will win and I don't know how it be different than other rulers that came before her.

I actually really liked Tyrion this episode, it seems like he is getting out of the Dany cult. And honestly, if Varys and Tyrion were smart they would replace Dany and Cersei with a different ruler. One that doesn't need to be constantly reminded to not be a tyrant. But,  I am a pessimistic person, and I think its just clever editing and they are really talking about Cersei and trying to convince her to bend the knee to Dany. I would be genuinely surprised if they actually made Dany the actual villain in the show, I feel like the show does a lot of pandering.

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6 minutes ago, Crona said:

Dany was my favorite in the beginning but quickly derailed for me. And its because this overblown savior aspect of her that I just never got. I feel like its a lot of white washing with her, and an aspect of the story that's really weak.  It would be nice of someone was to ever call her out on her hypocrisy, and although she claims she is different, her actions are all the same as previous rulers. The show is really making it seem like Dany will win and I don't know how it be different than other rulers that came before her.

I actually really liked Tyrion this episode, it seems like he is getting out of the Dany cult. And honestly, if Varys and Tyrion were smart they would replace Dany and Cersei with a different ruler. One that doesn't need to be constantly reminded to not be a tyrant. But,  I am a pessimistic person, and I think its just clever editing and they are really talking about Cersei and trying to convince her to bend the knee to Dany. I would be genuinely surprised if they actually made Dany the actual villain in the show, I feel like the show does a lot of pandering.

Ugh, I hope it is not just a trick of editing. Because you are right, so far the show has done nothing but pander and white-wash Dany. I don't think they need to make Dany the villain, but spend a few episodes showing us that her current course is not the savior she promised to be and I think we'll be on the right path. But I also am pessimistic and don't really think we'll see too much of this, if any. 

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1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

Oh please any commander who had access to dragons would use them in battle against in an army the same way as Dany did. 

I think that's what I said. I am also saying that if your best argument is "Cersei is worse" (true though it is) you're struggling to maintain the "divine savior, better than everyone else" narrative that the show continually tries to cram down our throats.

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

As an aside your profile picture freaked me out because I saw it moved lol

Yeah, I used to have a lot of fun making those little animated ones. For those unfamiliar with that art, it's Davos Seaworth (probably the only man in the show who is an all-around decent dude) getting his fingers snipped by Stannis (the book version, show-Stannis is a joke)

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

Also your signature thing is great

Thanks, can't take full credit for it though - someone else (on this board) posted something along those lines some years back, so I changed a few bits and turned it into a siggy (with their permission of course, though to my shame I don't remember who it was).

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14 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Ugh, I hope it is not just a trick of editing. Because you are right, so far the show has done nothing but pander and white-wash Dany. I don't think they need to make Dany the villain, but spend a few episodes showing us that her current course is not the savior she promised to be and I think we'll be on the right path. But I also am pessimistic and don't really think we'll see too much of this, if any. 

Lol, i was trying think of a word to describe Dany gettting humbled, and the only thing  I could think is villain. But, yea something that shows she is not a savior but something else. I still in some way like Dany, I just find her really hard to relate to.  As a watcher, the only thing you can anticipate with her is her dragons being used, but other than that there really isn't much to her character.

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2 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I think that's what I said. I am also saying that if your best argument is "Cersei is worse" (true though it is) you're struggling to maintain the "divine savior, better than everyone else" narrative that the show continually tries to cram down our throats.

 

But that is not the argument om making. I am saying any commander would use the dragons on an opposing army in battle and that includes people like Jon, Robb, Stannis, Robert, etc.

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1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

But that is not the argument om making. I am saying any commander would use the dragons on an opposing army in battle and that includes people like Jon, Robb, Stannis, Robert, etc.

Aye, they would have. So we agree: Dany is just like everyone else?

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2 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Dragons and eyebrows, my man, dragons and eyebrows! Maybe House Targaryen should change their words from Fire and Blood to that...

:laugh: New favorite quote? New hashtag? I dunno, but this is great! 

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The wagons we saw being burned weren't enough to carry a significant fraction of the grain stores, and recent harvest, of the Reach.

In practical effects terms it is probably easier to explode, or set on fire, wagons.

That is not to say that the show wont say she destroyed all the food, just that it is not necessarily so from what we saw. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

But that is not the argument om making. I am saying any commander would use the dragons on an opposing army in battle and that includes people like Jon, Robb, Stannis, Robert, etc.

Stannis is absolutely not a good person, though. He is not sadistic and he does believe that he is doing the right thing but that doesn't excuse his actions. As for Robert he also did some morally questionable things. 

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41 minutes ago, JagLover said:

The wagons we saw being burned weren't enough to carry a significant fraction of the grain stores, and recent harvest, of the Reach.

In practical effects terms it is probably easier to explode, or set on fire, wagons.

That is not to say that the show wont say she destroyed all the food, just that it is not necessarily so from what we saw. 

 

 

I believe it was Jaime who said at one point that the caravan was spread very thin. I think Dany only destroyed a portion of the food wagons.

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11 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@Mikkel @Pandean @Gala I enjoyed reading your posts especially yours Gala - your fiancé's point about Dany being motivated to free slaves purely out of revenge fantasy and need to be admired / followed (and showing off cunning and intellect to find the quickest path to being hailed as a virtuous queen) is incredibly poignant.  I watched the show first and thought Dany was the choice for the human bag guy villain until the Benioff and Weiss S6 promo interviews came out when they were jerking themselves off for how feminist the show was because it had so many "bad ass" murderous females (which doesn't mean this is a "feminist" show, it means that it subverts typical gender tropes a lot but not necessarily feminist).  Then I realized for sure she is their preferred protagonist no matter what GRRM intended.

I read the books in between S6 and S7, however...

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and it seems apparent right away Dany is the bad guy - from the mad king parallel to the sense of entitlement to the fact that we have no POVs around her except for her own POV so we get absolutely no outside perspective on her actions.   Why would GRRM the hero a sweet beautiful child wlth 3 dragons (making her unstoppable win war when they are grown - everyone prefers an underdog) if he is set on doing the unexpected in fantasy genres?  I do think GRRM got bored of the story he had been writing for 15 years and that is why Aegon came into play in ADWD and Dany has scenes like the one in Meereen where she decides to stay, or when she is actively caring for the sick.  He changed his mind to make her a protagonist.

 

Thank you.
Since I've read the books and he didn't, I was surprised by my fiance's point of view: for me they made Dany a sort of saintlike-messiah-goddess, who is driven by noble cause. I was amazed that he was able to see her from another perspective, just like I did because I read the books.
 

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5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I know she doesn't. But Cersei is a force for evil, and Dany is doing what Cersei would do (if she had dragons) so...

Cercei wouldn't waste her time on waiting for a fair field battle opportunity, in all fairness to her.

She would've attacked King's Landing, sacked, burned the city, burned thousands of civillians, and would've unleashed the Mountain's and Euron's armies to rape women and smashing babies' heads off the walls. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Cercei wouldn't waste her time on waiting for a fair field battle opportunity, in all fairness to her.

She would've attacked King's Landing, sacked, burned the city, burned thousands of civillians, and would've unleashed the Mountain's and Euron's armies to rape women and smashing babies' heads off the walls. 

 

 

Well, Dany is the leader of a horde of people whose avowed aim in life is to rape and pillage everyone they deem weak, so I don't think either side wins any points there. I wouldn't call the "Field of Fire 2.0" a "fair field battle" either (dragons + a surprise attack on a marching column...), but then any commander worth the title would do their utmost to seek unfair battles, with the advantage going to them, of course. Can't blame Dany for that part of it, it's just ineptness on the part of the Lannister army for not employing outriders, scouts or anything of the sort.

Whether bad writing or butchered characterization since Randyll Tarly is supposed to be a master tactician I don't know, but then again everyone in the show seems to have learned tactics by playing Warcraft, so what can you expect.

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