Jcat

Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

115 posts in this topic

In this episode, Daenerys was all motivated to go and burn down the Red Keep after hearing about the defeat of her Tyrell allies.  Then Tyrion and Jon in turn advise her against it.  Next we see Daenerys, Drogon and the Dothraki attack the marching Lannister forces.  So who advised her to take that action?  Tyrion?  Varys?  Jon?  Missandei?  Daenerys herself?
 
Attacking the Lannister/Tarly forces, who were strung out in column and heavily laden with supply wagons, was a master stroke.  Of course, no one ever bothers with reconnaissance or counter-reconnaissance in this world so they are constantly being surprised.  Nevertheless, given the current operational situation facing Daenerys' forces it was the correct decision.  (She should not have gone after the Red Keep--Cersei likely has an air defense battery of Scorpions (i.e. ballistas) and the Dothraki are shit at sieges).
 
I am not a book reader, and I don't usually get upset about plot inconsistencies and clumsy character arcs.  But, if D & D don't reveal who advised Daenerys to make that attack I am going to lose my shit!  Personally, I hope it was Tyrion, because he could use a win.  But who do you think it was?

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Posted (edited)

Hey don't get nasty!

It is a strong possibility that Daenerys came to that conclusion herself.  I indicated that possibility in my post.  But it is not perfectly obvious that she just grabbed that option out of the blue.  We are missing the rest of the conversation on the beach.

For instance, Daenerys might have asked her assembled advisors..."well where can I attack?"  And Tyrion or Jon or Varys could have said..."well the Lannister/Tarly forces might be a good target in the open on their march back to the citadel."  And of course, it was Daenerys who took the decision in the end.

Edited by Jcat

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Tyrion begins by telling her to follow the original plan and go to besiege Kings Landing. Dany joining the attack, and the fact that it was with the Dothraki, not Dorne/the Reach attacking are the changes to the plan. Overall, the strategy is the same.

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Just now, Jcat said:

Hey don't get nasty!

It is a strong possibility that Daenerys came to that conclusion herself.

The show clearly points to Daenerys been the one to use her dragons.

Just now, Jcat said:

 

 I indicated that possibility in the subject line of the post.  But it is not perfectly obvious that she just grabbed that option out of the blue.  We are missing the rest of the conversation on the beach.

We don't, she says on screen I have three large dragons and Im not using them, obviously initiating this conversation, Tyrion completely objects and she puts him down. She asks Jon snow and he doesn't object but advises against burning Castles and cities to the ground. She doesn't receive any advice from the others and off she goes. Jon even says to Theon 'shes gone', really in a tone insinuating that shes doing her own thing.

Just now, Jcat said:

For instance, Daenerys might have asked her assembled advisors..."well where can I attack?"  And Tyrion or Jon or Varys could have said..."well the Lannister/Tarly forces might be a good target in the open on their march back to the citadel."  And of course, it was Daenerys who took the decision in the end.

I think you mean marching back from Highgarden. Again logistics arnt a factor in the show thats something I dont look into anymore and let it annoy me. Varys and Tyrion have their heads up each others arse and dont know the far end of a fart. So them predicting where they are is not happening. They cant just magically know things now after been so moronic. 

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This is pretty much in line with the D&D edict of "women on top".  Plans, shmans, just go fight is the best strategy, The instant the Lannister army was in the field (since they all have instagram feeds of every surveillance camera in Westeros unless they need lack of intel as a plot point), every person near her should have been shouting BURN THE ARMY WITH DRAGONS!

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I agree that it is clearly portrayed as a decision that Dany made on her own after being advised not to burn cities and melt castles.  However, I wish it had been Jon's idea so as to establish some worth in the eyes of his potential allies.  Instead he just parrots what Tyrion already said and added nothing of his own.  We've already seen countless instances of Dany acting on her own instincts to gain victory, it would've been nice to see Jon give her the idea and distinguish himself a little bit in her eyes.  Would make their budding affection a little more believable instead of Jon just sulking around telling everyone the world is ending and showing off his finger paintings.

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29 minutes ago, Bear42 said:

I agree that it is clearly portrayed as a decision that Dany made on her own after being advised not to burn cities and melt castles.  However, I wish it had been Jon's idea so as to establish some worth in the eyes of his potential allies.  Instead he just parrots what Tyrion already said and added nothing of his own.  We've already seen countless instances of Dany acting on her own instincts to gain victory, it would've been nice to see Jon give her the idea and distinguish himself a little bit in her eyes.  Would make their budding affection a little more believable instead of Jon just sulking around telling everyone the world is ending and showing off his finger paintings.

The fact that Dany even asks Jon his opinion is an indication of the worth she is starting to place on him.  In the next episode preview he is actually in the painted table chamber with her and her council.

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In reply to Samwell Tarly post: the Lannister army is marching 'back' to the Citadel where presumably they were previously stationed.

The reason I asked this question is because I don't think of Daenerys as a strategic thinker, and attacking her enemies' major combat force in a vulnerable position is a really smart thing to do.  Now she might have come to this conclusion on her own.  And I get why the decision-making process that led to this move could not be shown for storytelling purposes.  But I still think that there is a possibility that the idea was not her own initially.

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1 minute ago, Jcat said:

In reply to Samwell Tarly post: the Lannister army is marching 'back' to the Citadel where presumably they were previously stationed.

Your wrong they are not marching back to the Citadel. LOL

1 minute ago, Jcat said:

The reason I asked this question is because I don't think of Daenerys as a strategic thinker, and attacking her enemies' major combat force in a vulnerable position is a really smart thing to do.  Now she might have come to this conclusion on her own.  And I get why the decision-making process that led to this move could not be shown for storytelling purposes.  But I still think that there is a possibility that the idea was not her own initially.

Well no one wants her to use her dragons so therefore no one would have advised her to do so. She did it off her own back as Tyrions soft plans were not working. The decision making process was shown quite clearly as potrayed to Tryion.

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Sorry my bad.  I am referring to King's Landing/Red Keep as the Citadel.  It is a citadel, but in this story it is not the Citadel.

Again we don't have the whole conversation.  And Tyrion is smart enough to realize that Daenerys' patience with his indirect approach is at an end, and that she will not be talked-out of using at least one of her dragons.  And so to redirect her rage away from burning a city, Tyrion (or someone else) suggests an alternative target of opportunity.

In any case, someone said "hey why don't we attack the Lannister/Tarly forces in the field"?  After which comments must have followed, if not a discussion.  I want a solid confirmation whose idea that was, not 'what can obviously be inferred from the story.'

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2 minutes ago, Jcat said:

Sorry my bad.  I am referring to King's Landing/Red Keep as the Citadel.  It is a citadel, but in this story it is not the Citadel.

Again we don't have the whole conversation.  And Tyrion is smart enough to realize that Daenerys' patience with his indirect approach is at an end, and that she will not be talked-out of using at least one of her dragons.  And so to redirect her rage away from burning a city, Tyrion (or someone else) suggests an alternative target of opportunity.

So you just confirmed it was Daenerys, we dont know anyone that suggests anything we can only go by what we see on the show, that was Daenerys making up her own mind.

2 minutes ago, Jcat said:

In any case, someone said "hey why don't we attack the Lannister/Tarly forces in the field"?

Did actually anyone say anything, we wil never know. How about this spin, Daenerys was acutallly travelling to the King Landing, ignoring everyone, to burn the red keep but came across Jamie and his gang by accident??

2 minutes ago, Jcat said:

After which comments must have followed, if not a discussion.  I want a solid confirmation whose idea that was, not 'what can obviously be inferred from the story.'

Not going to happen, as far as the show goes it was Daenerys...period.

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I found your question pertinent, I was wondering the same. All this season, we had to assume a lot of things to happen off-screen, for the things that happen on screen to make some sense, and this was not different.

I don't think it was Tyrion. First of all, he didn't want her to use the dragons at all, or at least, not to ride them herself. Tyrion's  position was that doing that  would be dangerous for her, and that they coudn't afford to lose their Queen. Second, we can clearly see in Tyrion's face that he is not pleased at all seeing all Lannister's soldiers being burnt. Perhaps, as Danaerys said, he didn't want her family smashed after all. Or Tyrion's face was meant to make a point about the great difference between making plans on a map and actually seeing the horrors of war. 

On a side note, Tyrion's reaction was kind of strange. What did he think it was going to happen? That the Iron Throne would be given to  Dani at her arrival  as a gift? And anyway, he had no problems in burning thousands of men himself with wildfire, why would this be different?

I don't think it was Varys. Varys is not a military strategist. Recently is not even a competent spy, but even if he was, he doesn't know what the best military target in a given situation is. The same can be said about Missandei.

The only one there with the knowledge to give such advise is Jon, or maybe Davos. Kind of "you need to break their supply lines if you're going to siege King's Landing". But Davos wouldn't do it without Jon's permission. And  we saw both of them  reluctant, Jon does not want to get caught in Dani's conquer war.

As for Dani alone, Dani has not proven to be a military strategist either, she had Jorah, Barristan, Daario, to make the plans and discuss the possibilities of each one. Then she used to take the final decision, but she didn't make the plans herself.

So I don't really know what happened off-screen. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Jesus another one who watches the show with their eyes closed and ears turned off.

Quite clearly no one told her what to do. She asks Jon snow what he would do and she takes his advice. Hence burning the no so innocent Lannister/Tarly army. 

It was more obvious it was Daenerys who took it upon herself than Shaquille O'Neal at a midget convention.

You are far too close minded, there are always other options. It was clear what Tyrion suggested because he said it in full. What wasn't clear is what Jon would say. He advised against killing innocents, but we didn't see what Jon said next. What is clear is that sentiment does not extend to armies. Jon is far better militarily than Tyrion, it wouldn't be even remotely a stretch if he instructed Dany on the value of hitting the Lannister wagon train. This tactic also helps Jon directly, as Sansa said, don't forget about the enemy in the south. It makes sense on virtually every level that Jon would be supportive of and even suggest that attack on Jaime et al.

Edited by Super Mario

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She asked Jon's advice, therefore I think it was Jon's advice.  As LucyMormont said, break their supply line and weaken the enemy, without burning cities or civilians.

It resembles Jon giving Stannis military advice in the books, and that gave Stannis cause to trust Jon more.   Perhaps this will serve as the same.

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8 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

She asked Jon's advice, therefore I think it was Jon's advice.  As LucyMormont said, break their supply line and weaken the enemy, without burning cities or civilians.

It resembles Jon giving Stannis military advice in the books, and that gave Stannis cause to trust Jon more.   Perhaps this will serve as the same.

Her using the Dragons was her idea , Jons advice only served as a way to direct her dragon fire. We dont actually know she used Jons advice at all. 

What happens if Daenerys was actually heading to the red keep but came past Jamie and his gang by accident???

10 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

You are far too close minded, there are always other options. It was clear what Tyrion suggested because he said it in full. What wasn't clear is what Jon would say. He advised against killing innocents, but we didn't see what Jon said next.

Yes we did hear what they both had to say, she basically put Tyrion down and asked Jon for his advice.

10 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

What is clear is that sentiment does not extend to armies. Jon is far better militarily than Tyrion, it wouldn't be even remotely a stretch if he instructed Dany on the value of hitting the Lannister wagon train.

Not mentioned in the scene, only an assumption.

10 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

his tactic also helps Jon directly, as Sansa said, don't forget about the enemy in the south. It makes sense on virtually every level that Jon would be supportive of and even suggest that attack on Jaime et al.

Jons not interested in the Iron Throne, playing at games etc. Daenerys asked what he would in her position and he told her. He's not interested in anything but defeating the WW.

 

Im only building a picture from what we have seen in the Show, using facts and what people have said.

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1 minute ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Her using the Dragons was her idea , Jons advice only served as a way to direct her dragon fire. We dont actually know she used Jons advice at all. 

What happens if Daenerys was actually heading to the red keep but came past Jamie and his gang by accident???

Yes we did hear what they both had to say, she basically put Tyrion down and asked Jon for his advice.

Not mentioned in the scene, only an assumption.

Jons not interested in the Iron Throne, playing at games etc. Daenerys asked what he would in her position and he told her. He's not interested in anything but defeating the WW.

 

Im only building a picture from what we have seen in the Show, using facts and what people have said.

Not mentioned in the scene, only an assumption...  as is your assertion that Dany did it unilaterally.

Jons not interested in the Iron Throne, playing at games etc. Daenerys asked what he would in her position and he told her. He's not interested in anything but defeating the WW...   and not having to worry about defending his southern border against Cersei, because she's occupied with Dany, allows Jon to focus solely on the White Walkers.

Im only building a picture from what we have seen in the Show, using facts and what people have said...   no, you're doing the same things the rest of us are doing, you're just going in a different direction.. with blinders on

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1 minute ago, Super Mario said:

Not mentioned in the scene, only an assumption...  as is your assertion that Dany did it unilaterally.

Based upon what we seen yes she did.

1 minute ago, Super Mario said:

Jons not interested in the Iron Throne, playing at games etc. Daenerys asked what he would in her position and he told her. He's not interested in anything but defeating the WW...   and not having to worry about defending his southern border against Cersei, because she's occupied with Dany, allows Jon to focus solely on the White Walkers.

He doesnt care as pointed out, Sansa has to point this out to him and he still doesnt care. His only purpose is uniting the Kingdom to fight against the WW.

1 minute ago, Super Mario said:

Im only building a picture from what we have seen in the Show, using facts and what people have said...   no, you're doing the same things the rest of us are doing, you're just going in a different direction.. with blinders on

If thats your opinion so be it.

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Samwell_Tarly - Yeah, I don't know, I just assumed that it was the beginning of Dany starting to trust Jon, possibly leading to her trusting him above the others.  I assumed it was D&D using it as a way to get the two closer, after all of her other advisors "failed" her.

After all, the others felt it too dangerous for her to go personally, and we have Jon earlier in the series saying that everyone will fight, men and women, so I think it was a combination of what Dany wanted (using her dragons to hurt her enemies), and Jon's advice (that doing that to non-combatants would be ill-advised and "more of the same") , and his strategy to hit the Lannisters where it would hurt but could also be somewhat justified.

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1 hour ago, Jcat said:

The reason I asked this question is because I don't think of Daenerys as a strategic thinker, and attacking her enemies' major combat force in a vulnerable position is a really smart thing to do.  Now she might have come to this conclusion on her own.  And I get why the decision-making process that led to this move could not be shown for storytelling purposes.  But I still think that there is a possibility that the idea was not her own initially.

It didn't take any strategic brilliance, though. It was the extremely obvious thing to do if you're in a war and have vastly superior firepower. 

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