Jcat

Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

115 posts in this topic

38 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Based upon what we seen yes she did.

He doesnt care as pointed out, Sansa has to point this out to him and he still doesnt care. His only purpose is uniting the Kingdom to fight against the WW.

If thats your opinion so be it.

Based upon what we seen yes she did... No, we didn’t see Dany unilaterally decide to attack with dragons. What ever decision took place, took place off screen. You assigning that action to Dany and Dany alone is no less an assumption than believing Jon continued to outline better military options than sacking King’s Landing.

He doesnt care as pointed out, Sansa has to point this out to him and he still doesnt care. His only purpose is uniting the Kingdom to fight against the WW...  You don’t think Jon is capable of seizing an opportunity when it presents itself? Keeping Cersei occupied with Dany, protects his Northmen (who frankly need a break) AND allows him to devote all his energy towards the White Walkers. That’s undeniable.

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30 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Based upon what we seen yes she did... No, we didn’t see Dany unilaterally decide to attack with dragons. What ever decision took place, took place off screen. You assigning that action to Dany and Dany alone is no less an assumption than believing Jon continued to outline better military options than sacking King’s Landing

SO WHAT THE FUCK DID WE WITNESS THEN???

He doesnt care as pointed out, Sansa has to point this out to him and he still doesnt care. His only purpose is uniting the Kingdom to fight against the WW...  You don’t think Jon is capable of seizing an opportunity when it presents itself? Keeping Cersei occupied with Dany, protects his Northmen (who frankly need a break) AND allows him to devote all his energy towards the White Walkers. That’s undeniable.

kEEPING CERSEI OCCUPIED WITH DANY WASTES PRECIOUS TIME, 

 

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3 hours ago, Jcat said:

In reply to Samwell Tarly post: the Lannister army is marching 'back' to the Citadel where presumably they were previously stationed.

The reason I asked this question is because I don't think of Daenerys as a strategic thinker, and attacking her enemies' major combat force in a vulnerable position is a really smart thing to do.  Now she might have come to this conclusion on her own.  And I get why the decision-making process that led to this move could not be shown for storytelling purposes.  But I still think that there is a possibility that the idea was not her own initially.

Serious question Jcat, not being a smart ass....have you seen the entire series up to this point?

If so, do you recall how she came into possession of the Unsullied?  Do you recall how she defeated The Masters last season?  She was the one to come up with those very successful strategic plans, after her advisers couldn't figure out what to do.

That being said, she may not have the knowledge of supply lines and tactics of moving armies in Westeros, which very likely could have been suggested by Jon or Davos based on their first hand knowledge of war tactics (probably not Tyrion or Varys).  Jon and/or Davos may have identified the target but I would bet Dany chose the strategy (again, a strategic thinker) and executed the plan.

 It was obvious to me that Tyrion didn't like seeing the men burning and provisions destroyed...he didn't plan that attack.  Varys is in the episode five trailer telling Tyrion they "need to find a way to make her listen"; she is obviously not taking any of their advice at this point.  None of her advisers know how to effectively employ the Dothraki, so it is fair to conclude how the actual attack played out.

I bet we will see her compliment Jon on the suggestion of the target during the map scene at Dragonstone.  Just speculation though...we'll see.

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Ghost, obviously. He's the real mastermind behind everything. That's why D&D have been keeping him off screen in hopes no one will see it coming. 

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I am glad to see there are some other blockheads out there like me who don't automatically assume it was all Daenerys' own thinking.  

Of course, she made the final decision and carried out the attack, so deserves a lot of credit in any case.  And she might have been the instigator of the idea by simply asking "where are the Lannister forces now?"  Especially after being rebuffed by both Tyrion and Jon concerning her King's Landing attack idea.

If it was not Daenerys herself the two strongest possibilities are Tyrion or Jon.  Daenerys is now questioning Tyrion's loyality and commitment to her cause, what better way to prove his allegence.  And Jon is not a great strategist, but has military experience.  

It basically comes down to Tyrion and Jon storywise because they are both in immediate proximity to Daenerys in the upcoming episode.  Tyrion on the battlefield and Jon at the end of her dragon runway on the beach at Dragonstone.

I hope Tyrion had something to do with it because I am tired of him getting continually shit upon this season.

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For some reason, I tend to believe the idea would have been first floated by Davos.  With Jon catching on fairly quickly and adding to it.

And Dany adding the final touches (ie, Drogon).

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8 hours ago, Bear42 said:

I agree that it is clearly portrayed as a decision that Dany made on her own after being advised not to burn cities and melt castles.  However, I wish it had been Jon's idea so as to establish some worth in the eyes of his potential allies.  Instead he just parrots what Tyrion already said and added nothing of his own.  We've already seen countless instances of Dany acting on her own instincts to gain victory, it would've been nice to see Jon give her the idea and distinguish himself a little bit in her eyes.  Would make their budding affection a little more believable instead of Jon just sulking around telling everyone the world is ending and showing off his finger paintings.

I'd like to HAVE seen Jon say this as well. Something akin to don't burn castles but if you can find them out in the open that's where I'd take them. Jon's no rube on fighting battles.

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I think Dany decided to attack the supply wagon herself but it's a monumentally stupid move and here is why

EVERYONE IN WESTEROS IS NOW GOING TO STARVE!

It's funny though. Dany knew the Lannisters had taken all the food out of thew larders at Castely Rock - so where the hell did she think it was? She didn't stop to consider that all the wagons she burned contained food from the whole of the Westerlands and the Reach to feed the people in Kings Landing over the winter?

Seriously, anyone who doesn't think that leaving mainland Westeros is the best life choice at this stage deserves to die in the Long Night :D

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Posted (edited)

Daerneys IMO ultimately took the advice of Lady Olenna who told her to BE A DRAGON.......not a sheep like the men in Westeros she had known.     She did seek Jon Snow's counsel and based on that she did not attack the Red Keep and King's Landing where innocents would be slaughtered. Instead she attacked the Lannister/Tarley armies in the field.

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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47 minutes ago, ummester said:

I think Dany decided to attack the supply wagon herself but it's a monumentally stupid move and here is why

EVERYONE IN WESTEROS IS NOW GOING TO STARVE!

It's funny though. Dany knew the Lannisters had taken all the food out of thew larders at Castely Rock - so where the hell did she think it was? She didn't stop to consider that all the wagons she burned contained food from the whole of the Westerlands and the Reach to feed the people in Kings Landing over the winter?

50 wagons can't carry enough to feed her army for one day, let alone all of King's Landing for the winter. Once the Dothraki got too close to the phalanx, she made the 100% correct decision to target enemy soldiers among and near the wagons. It's a decision that saved many Dothraki lives.

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Off topic: there are actually some consumables left at Casterly Rock--fresh Lannister cutlets, and on the field of fire--barbacued Lannister and blackened Tarly.

On topic: looking at a map I don't think Daenerys and her forces could have inadvertantly come on Jaime and his forces, unless they were very close to King's Landing.  And I did not get the impression they were all that close.  Of course, if Daenerys was smart she would be acting as advanced aerial reconnaissance for her army.

 

 

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I take that last bit back.  After looking at the map again, they could have encountered Jaime's forces if they took the southern route.  So if Samwell Tarly is correct, there was not a decision taken to engage the Lannister field army, it was just a chance thing.

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12 hours ago, Jcat said:
In this episode, Daenerys was all motivated to go and burn down the Red Keep after hearing about the defeat of her Tyrell allies.  Then Tyrion and Jon in turn advise her against it.  Next we see Daenerys, Drogon and the Dothraki attack the marching Lannister forces.  So who advised her to take that action?  Tyrion?  Varys?  Jon?  Missandei?  Daenerys herself?
 
Attacking the Lannister/Tarly forces, who were strung out in column and heavily laden with supply wagons, was a master stroke.  Of course, no one ever bothers with reconnaissance or counter-reconnaissance in this world so they are constantly being surprised.  Nevertheless, given the current operational situation facing Daenerys' forces it was the correct decision.  (She should not have gone after the Red Keep--Cersei likely has an air defense battery of Scorpions (i.e. ballistas) and the Dothraki are shit at sieges).
 
I am not a book reader, and I don't usually get upset about plot inconsistencies and clumsy character arcs.  But, if D & D don't reveal who advised Daenerys to make that attack I am going to lose my shit!  Personally, I hope it was Tyrion, because he could use a win.  But who do you think it was?

While I have no doubt that Dany could figure this out on her own, I am putting my money on Jon having suggested this course of action just to create a little more bonding between them.

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3 hours ago, Thror Baratheon said:

For some reason, I tend to believe the idea would have been first floated by Davos.  With Jon catching on fairly quickly and adding to it.

And Dany adding the final touches (ie, Drogon).

I like your idea better than my own. That would be consistent with the way Davos thinks and advises.

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11 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Jesus another one who watches the show with their eyes closed and ears turned off.

Quite clearly no one told her what to do. She asks Jon snow what he would do and she takes his advice. Hence burning the no so innocent Lannister/Tarly army. 

It was more obvious it was Daenerys who took it upon herself than Shaquille O'Neal at a midget convention.

That is absolutely uncool. There is no right way to be entertained and that is all this is, entertainment.

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40 minutes ago, Jcat said:

I take that last bit back.  After looking at the map again, they could have encountered Jaime's forces if they took the southern route.  So if Samwell Tarly is correct, there was not a decision taken to engage the Lannister field army, it was just a chance thing.

Chance thing??  Was she just walking around with the entire Dothraki army looking for a target?  She isn't going to take King's Landing with them, they aren't siege forces. It seems obvious she was moving to intercept the Lannister army returning from Highgarden.  The food was meant for Kings Landing, clearly.  By attacking them on the march they are vulnerable, and the destruction of that food sets up the Targaryen forces for a more effective seige of KL.

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Just now, DarkBastard said:

Chance thing??  Was she just walking around with the entire Dothraki army looking for a target?  She isn't going to take King's Landing with them, they aren't siege forces. It seems obvious she was moving to intercept the Lannister army returning from Highgarden.  The food was meant for Kings Landing, clearly.  By attacking them on the march they are vulnerable, and the destruction of that food sets up the Targaryen forces for a more effective seige of KL.

Wasn't she planning to take the food though? Are they just going to take the food from other farmers in the Reach? Cause I don't think they have food either.

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8 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

SO WHAT THE FUCK DID WE WITNESS THEN???

Rewatch the scene little fella... Dany wants to devastate the Red Keep with 3 dragons, after some debate (some of which is off screen) she attacks military men only and with just 1 dragon. Such compromise should be obvious even to one as ego blind as you.

8 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

kEEPING CERSEI OCCUPIED WITH DANY WASTES PRECIOUS TIME, 

Get a clue. Jon is on the island mining dragon glass. His time isn't wasted. Cersei will never join the fight against the White Walkers so defeating her is necessary. Letting Dany beat up Cersei while Jon concentrates on weapons to defeat the Night King is as much efficiency as is possible under the circumstances. 

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Hey guys thanks for all your thoughts on this question.

I hope it gets answered to some extent in Sunday's episode.

If nothing is said I guess that means Daenerys gets all the credit.

I really hope she turns to Tyrion and thanks him for his wise council as to where to attack with her remaining forces ( just before he is totally horrified by Drogon burning the Lannisters who refuse to bend the knee).  I have to admit that possibility is a long shot, because it seems the plot calls for Tyrion to continue to lose Daenerys' confidence.

I agree with most of you guys that Jon is the most likely source.  Of course, Davos is also a very strong possibility.  But even if it was him, Davos works for Jon, and the headman gets the credit.

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Jcat, I think this question is an interesting one, and it has sparked a lively discussion. 

I don't know who came up with the idea to go after the Lannister army, but I suspect the decision came after some discussion, in which several of the players participated. We have seen Dany speak with multiple advisors in her war room; it isn't that much of a stretch to think she would entertain some informal debate on the beach. Sam_Tarley, you are right that it was her idea to ride Drogon into battle, but once Jon convinced her against attacking KL, she needed to figure out the best target. And she probably didn't have all the information she needed to come up with the Loot Train herself. She might not have known the timing of the HG battle, what HG's holdings were (and therefore what the Lannister had taken), or where the Lannisters were at that time. She might not have known the topography between HG and KL - is it all open field, where the Dothraki wild excel, and where Drogon could easily maneuver? That battle would have been very different in a place like The Vale.

I can imagine her saying, "Drogon is my best weapon, and I've lost two battles without him, so I'm taking him, and that's final. Now, if you really want to be helpful, stop telling me NOT to fly him, and tell me WHERE to fly him." Just IMHO, based on what I've seen as the characters so far.

Sam_Tarley, you obviously have a lot of knowledge about GOT and ASOIAF, and you have strong opinions and a lot of passion about the subject matter. I think that's great. We are all here because we are really engaged with this story. If you have felt a bit "ganged up upon" in this thread, it probably has less to do with what you have said than how you have said it. Please consider how unfailingly polite your namesake is in the show. By all means, support your arguments and opinions, but please remember we are all just fans, trying to have a friendly chat about something we all love.

I look forward to learning more from you in future threads!

 

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