Jcat

Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

115 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

 

Samwell_Tarley,

i just read the above post after I had posted my comments to you and Jcat. Sorry, man, but swearing at fellow posters is just not acceptable. Jcat has been nothing but polite to you. It is fine to disagree with any or all of us, but please keep it friendly.

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Posted (edited)

Very well said Summer.

I wish we could get a flashback of those supposed deliberations, but the show does not do those kind of flashbacks.  I just hope they shine a little bit of light on how it all came about.

I also just heard a theory on Youtube from EmergencyAwesome, that Daenerys only decided to take one dragon to limit the damage based on Jon's cautionary comments.  Hmmm...not sure I buy that idea.  Afterall she was able to stop all three of her dragons from burning-up the majority of the Master's fleet at Mereen.  

Daenerys's real failing is not training additional dragon riders, and using them to conduct aerial reconnaissance, and (as another person suggested) demonstration flights around Westros to demoralize her opposition.

Edited by Jcat

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4 hours ago, Super Mario said:

 

Rewatch the scene little fella... Dany wants to devastate the Red Keep with 3 dragons, after some debate (some of which is off screen) she attacks military men only and with just 1 dragon. Such compromise should be obvious even to one as ego blind as you.

I am aware with what happens, you have confirmed it was Daenerys idea then. End of arguement

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2 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Samwell_Tarley,

i just read the above post after I had posted my comments to you and Jcat. Sorry, man, but swearing at fellow posters is just not acceptable. Jcat has been nothing but polite to you. It is fine to disagree with any or all of us, but please keep it friendly.

What are you the Faith Militant......

..........put me on trial

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5 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Samwell_Tarley,

i just read the above post after I had posted my comments to you and Jcat. Sorry, man, but swearing at fellow posters is just not acceptable. Jcat has been nothing but polite to you. It is fine to disagree with any or all of us, but please keep it friendly.

There's a guy like Samwell on every board on the net. It's hard to avoid miserable people, they're everywhere. 

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3 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

What are you the Faith Militant......

..........put me on trial

No, Sweetie, just The Mother - I can be very forgiving. ;-)

Now, be a good boy and behave.

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Civility is always preferred, but I also understand the frustration.  I don't remember who said it, but there was talk of the Lannister army "returning to the Citadel".  When it was pointed out that the Lannister army was not at nor would they be going to The Citadel...kind of a wtf moment...it was said that Kings Landing is "like a citadel" (I'm too busy dig back to see who it was).

That kind of stuff drives superfans crazy...there is only one Citadel in this story, and it really can't be confused with KL.  When stuff like that is said it makes people think the person who said it is full of shit...and it goes downhill from there.  

So if you're putting an opinion out in a forum such as this, the moral of the story is to have all your shit in one sock before you start talking...or you will likely get pounced on by folks like Samwell.  In that sense, Sam might be like Ser Pounce...and Ser Pounce, like the honey badger, don't care.

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47 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

Civility is always preferred, but I also understand the frustration.  I don't remember who said it, but there was talk of the Lannister army "returning to the Citadel".  When it was pointed out that the Lannister army was not at nor would they be going to The Citadel...kind of a wtf moment...it was said that Kings Landing is "like a citadel" (I'm too busy dig back to see who it was).

That kind of stuff drives superfans crazy...there is only one Citadel in this story, and it really can't be confused with KL.  When stuff like that is said it makes people think the person who said it is full of shit...and it goes downhill from there.  

So if you're putting an opinion out in a forum such as this, the moral of the story is to have all your shit in one sock before you start talking...or you will likely get pounced on by folks like Samwell.  In that sense, Sam might be like Ser Pounce...and Ser Pounce, like the honey badger, don't care.

Couldnt have put it better myself.

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Posted (edited)

Hey DarkBastard I was the one that made the casual error in referring to the Red Keep as the 'Citadel'.  I am not a book reader, but have watched the show intently for all 7 seven seasons, and I know the difference between Old Town and King's Landing.  And by the way I did a mea culpa for that mistake in an earlier post, I guess you missed that one.

Mann...this was just a curious inquiry about an unresolved plot point.  Well unresolved as far as I am concerned, not apparently for Mr. Tarly.  Where else would one post such a question?  And if some people's posts are completely inane or uninformed (or offense), then the assembled posters themselves or moderators will deal with it by ignoring it or removing it.  So with those safeguards in place, are self-appointed enforcers really necessary on this site?

Finally I am thankful that this site does not require a Maester's chain obtained from the Citadel to participate.

Edited by Jcat

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On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 10:51 PM, Jcat said:
In this episode, Daenerys was all motivated to go and burn down the Red Keep after hearing about the defeat of her Tyrell allies.  Then Tyrion and Jon in turn advise her against it.  Next we see Daenerys, Drogon and the Dothraki attack the marching Lannister forces.  So who advised her to take that action?  Tyrion?  Varys?  Jon?  Missandei?  Daenerys herself?

She asked for Tyrion and Jon's advise which they both gave.

Tyrion advised her not to attack the Red Keep by virtue of her being queen. Tyrion is a chess player (or cyvasse as is the case in this story) so his thing is less chances of the queen being killed is better. Tyrion is a reader and might I say a fanatic of dragons/dragonlore. Daenerys might think she's invincible because she has 3 dragons but history says otherwise. No need to add that the show also confirmed it. For more on this you can read the long Targaryen history in this same website's wiki.

Dany understands Tyrion wants her safe and protected but at the same time she is right in entertaining the thought that Tyrion might just be protecting his family and playing her considering recent events.

So she asked Jon's opinion.

Keep in mind her original plan is to burn the Red Keep/KL.

Jon does not directly tell her to do/don't do that. He instead tells her that if she does (continue with her plan) she would not be any different than those who aspired/sat the throne. 

So in essence, she did somehow follow Jon's advice by ambushing the soldiers (man who are totally aware they are in a war and somehow have accepted their fate in consequence of them taking part in it) on their way back to King's Landing instead of KL itself and its inhabitants (the "Sheep"). If I heard it right Randyll Tarly, also mentions that all (?) the gold has entered KL. The background scene also shows a huge structure that definitely doesn't look like the Citadel in Oldtown.

As for locating the current movement of Jaime's forces, Varys must have that info as that is after all his purpose in Dany's council. The raven network is also in play.

Now the logistics, if you look back to your map, Dragonstone is an island just off the Blackwater Bay. Same position Stannis was originally in battle of the Blackwater (where Tyrion used wildfire).  Since she fought with the Dothraki not the Unsullied, it's safe to say they went by boat/ship and landed somewhere near the Kingswood to ambush Jaime's forces in the Roseroad as they are coming from Highgarden. Not to mention Davos and Tyrion who fought in Blackwater bay are there to provide insights.

As for the strategic value of her decision, she indeed show that she has dragons and that her army although undisciplined (as compared to the westerosi) have a probability of defeating Cersei's.

However, as the whole point of her rage on why they lost is Casterly Rock and Highgarden is food/resources not sure if she has hit that objective.

We'll see next episode

Now to your question - So who advised her to take that action? They all advised her. As any leader, commander do, you ask for your council's advise but it ultimately falls on you to decide what/which action to take.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jcat said:

Hey DarkBastard I was the one that made the casual error in referring to the Red Keep as the 'Citadel'.  I am not a book reader, but have watched the show intently for all 7 seven seasons, and I know the difference between Old Town and King's Landing.  And by the way I did a mea culpa for that mistake in an earlier post, I guess you missed that one.

Mann...this was just a curious inquiry about an unresolved plot point.  Well unresolved as far as I am concerned, not apparently for Mr. Tarly.  Where else would one post such a question?  And if some people's posts are completely inane or uninformed (or offense), then the assembled posters themselves or moderators will deal with it by ignoring it or removing it.  So with those safeguards in place, are self-appointed enforcers really necessary on this site?

Finally I am thankful that this site does not require a Maester's chain obtained from the Citadel to participate.

No Maester's chains needed!  I do encourage you to take a look at the books though.  I think the show is the best in the history of television, but as unbelievable as it may be, the books are better.

The use of colorful language shouldn't be frowned upon unless someone is truly being abusive.  In a show filled with tits and peckers and torture...and far more traditionally "offensive" words than most (c u next Tuesday, turtle wants a twinkie, etc.), no one here should be offended by the generally common spoken cuss words.  I've been called worse on here, and I've given it back too...it happens.  I don't think moderators need to get involved unless it becomes threatening or harassing.  That's just my two cents though, we're all (presumably) adults here, right?

No worries though, I think this dead horse is sufficiently beat.

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On 8/8/2017 at 10:51 AM, Jcat said:
Of course, no one ever bothers with reconnaissance or counter-reconnaissance in this world so they are constantly being surprised.  

This is a good point. Maybe the first battle commander who thinks up the crazy idea of deploying scouts will end up on the Iron Throne.

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On 8/8/2017 at 0:42 PM, El Guapo said:

The fact that Dany even asks Jon his opinion is an indication of the worth she is starting to place on him.  In the next episode preview he is actually in the painted table chamber with her and her council.

It's apparently really easy to get into that inner circle of hers.

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45 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

The use of colorful language shouldn't be frowned upon unless someone is truly being abusive.

Not sure it's the language that bothers folks so much as the general douchiness

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Not sure it's the language that bothers folks so much as the general douchiness

lmao!

Touche, ser.

Edited by DarkBastard

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In my opinion:

Daenerys was tired of Tyrion's plan.. She understands that Tyrion is trying to protect her.. But she believe that she is not worth to be a queen if she let thousands of her people risk their lives and dying for her and she sits behind safely.. She wants to fight, to risk her life just like her people do.

She asks for Jon's advice, and it seems like she already sees him as her ally.. Jon doesn't tell her exactly what to do they are not close enough to do that..(you don't play with fire right). He encourage her to use her dragons as she wants but he also reminds her that she wants to make a better world.. And that won't happen if she burn cities to the ground. Maybe he tells her that inccocents don't have to die.. Only the ones who fight..

About her bringing only Drogon to battle I am not sure if she was the one who decided it.. I think it was Tyrion and he convinced that she don't won't to risk the lives of her children. Tyrion read many things about dragons and maybe he told her that she won't be able to control them during the fight..(on the other hand we saw her using them in Meeryn).

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It's a good question since it really isn't shown, but I'd say a mix of Dany's own initiative while taking Jon's advice into account.  So basically a compromise between Dany's "I have 3 dragons and I'll take them straight to the Red Keep" and Jon's "Don't use dragons to burn cities."  I think only taking Drogon was a further compromise by Dany to try and cut down on any extra unnecessary destruction by not bringing those riderless dragons to the mainland without knowing whether they would immediately follow her back, etc.

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Posted (edited)

Great Udder -I think Tyrion has a point about the Queen's safety.  If she buys it the whole show is over.  And Daenerys had two close calls during the battle.  And damn she must have really strong hands to hang on during Drogon's emergency decent.  A safety harness might be a really good idea.  I think someone who posted on this topic suggested Tyrion design some kind of dragon staddle.

Darkbastard -I don't want to read the books because I have witnessed the disappointment of too many book readers with aspects of the show.  Elio and Linda are prime examples.  I do enjoy watching their shrugs, sighs and eyes rolling back into their sockets everytime the post a video review.

Ser Hyle -Yeah a little more ISR (Intelligence, Reconnaissance and Surveillance) please!

Super Mario - I don't mind colorful language either, but personal attacks we could do without.

Styl7 -Yeah Daenerys has to show she is willing to put herself at risk (especially since she did not train any other dragonriders--dumb).

Tagganaro -great point it does not have to be one person, but her council as a whole.

 

 

Edited by Jcat

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1 hour ago, Jcat said:

Great Udder -I think Tyrion has a point about the Queen's safety.  If she buys it the whole show is over.  And Daenerys had two close calls during the battle.  And damn she must have really strong hands to hang on during Drogon's emergency decent.  A safety harness might be a really good idea.  I think someone who posted on this topic suggested Tyrion design some kind of dragon staddle.

Darkbastard -I don't want to read the books because I have witnessed the disappointment of too many book readers with aspects of the show.  Elio and Linda are prime examples.  I do enjoy watching their shrugs, sighs and eyes rolling back into their sockets everytime the post a video review.

Ser Hyle -Yeah a little more ISR (Intelligence, Reconnaissance and Surveillance) please!

Super Mario - I don't mind colorful language either, but personal attacks we could do without.

Styl7 -Yeah Daenerys has to show she is willing to put herself at risk (especially since she did not train any other dragonriders--dumb).

Tagganaro -great point it does not have to be one person, but her council as a whole.

 

 

I read before someone saying that Daenerys should train Dragonriders..

But it is believed that to be able to ride a dragon you need some dragonblood... I will tell you something from the story of the Dance of Dragon

 

Queen Rhaenyra had more dragons that he brother Aegon during the Dance of Dragons so she tried to find Dragonriders.. Many tried many died.. They were some that did rode a dragon. I think they were thought to be (descendants of) dragonseeds(Dragonseeds are kind of Targaryen bastards in Dragonstone). I remember one of them betrayed Queen Rhaenyra..

Daenerys will not give her dragons to people she don't know. For her its not only dragons.. It's her children, the only children she will ever have.. 

Who could ride them? I think Jon will... But still who do you propose?

***There is also another incident in Meeryn of someone trying to ride a dragon..but I won't spoil it to you..

 

You said you don't want to read the books because you think it will ruin the show for you.. I think books are better, but I still think that the show is the best show in tv ever.. Don't donthat to yourself read the books... If you still don't want to try.. At least read the prequels that have nothing to do with the main story. Dunk and Egg is really enjoyable.. The 2 stories about the dance of dragons were so interesting too..

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Posted (edited)

How could the Mereen spoil anything in show world, unless Dany goes back to Mereen for some strange reason?

 

PS I always thought Tyrion would be the third dragonrider, but we see that he doesn't have the stomach for the carnage.  Bran warging is still a possibility.

Edited by Illiterati

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