Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

[Jcat]

11 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

I don't think there would be many volunteers.. 

Dragons are fire made flesh.. And flower is power..but they could use her dragons not only to burn army or cities. She must show to the common folk who she is.. Her dragons are a wonder born again in to the world. Many might think that her dragons aren't real. If she shows  her dragons she shows them that she is special, the only one in the world..

An even better idea!!!  And it fits with the approach Tyrion and Varys are endorsing.  Daenerys should just fly up to a number of ordinary settlements.  Jump off her dragon and go press the flesh with the regular folks.  They would be impressed with her (dragon) power, but be blown away by what a nice person she turns out to be, and she isn't mad like her father either.  They side with her over Cersei.  Brilliant!!!

Of course, she would need some security detail to accompany her and it would have to be Westeroses.

[Styl7]

1 hour ago, Jcat said:

An even better idea!!!  And it fits with the approach Tyrion and Varys are endorsing.  Daenerys should just fly up to a number of ordinary settlements.  Jump off her dragon and go press the flesh with the regular folks.  They would be impressed with her (dragon) power, but be blown away by what a nice person she turns out to be, and she isn't mad like her father either.  They side with her over Cersei.  Brilliant!!!

Of course, she would need some security detail to accompany her and it would have to be Westeroses.

I like your idea, I thought that too.. Ofc as you said she would need someone to accompany her. The ideal person for that would be Ser Barristan.. A knight admired by people...

[Jcat]

19 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

I like your idea, I thought that too.. Ofc as you said she would need someone to accompany her. The ideal person for that would be Ser Barristan.. A knight admired by people...

Dude that was your idea.  I was just saying that made a lot of sense.  And Ser Barristan would have been perfect except he is gone (in the show anyways).

[Illiterati]

"Hi, I am Danearys Targaryian, it's a pleasure to meet you.  You might know me as breaker of chains, mother of dragons, the unburnt, etc, etc, etc, but I'm really just a regular citizen like you who wants to make Westeros great again!"

[Jcat]

 

57 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

"Hi, I am Danearys Targaryian, it's a pleasure to meet you.  You might know me as breaker of chains, mother of dragons, the unburnt, etc, etc, etc, but I'm really just a regular citizen like you who wants to make Westeros great again!"

She should put that last bit on a hat.  A red hat.

 

[Jcat]

Sorry should not have alluded to real world politics in my last post.  Real world politics are divisive and no damn fun.  Westros politics are engaging and endlessly fun.

[Snormund]

3 minutes ago, Jcat said:

Sorry should not have alluded to real world politics in my last post.  Real world politics are divisive and no damn fun.  Westros politics are engaging and endlessly fun.

Idk Mango Mussolini is pretty funny at times. Of course I'm torn between laughing and crying most of the time with that jackass. 

[Jcat]

These are strange times indeed.

[Super Mario]

21 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

This bothered me at first , but on rewatching you can see that she can't burn the Lannister Line directly once the Dothraki have met it as she would be burning her own troops, so she burns a colunm of wagons immediately behind the line so the Lannisters can't retreat and use as the wagons as defence (a tactic used by Boers as well as in the old American West) as well as taking out the rear echelon of the Lannister line.  

This is an obvious strategic mistake by Dany. Keep in mind she's not riding a horse over the hill, she's flying a dragon. She could attack from any angle she wants. Instead of running perpendicular into the Lannister line like the Dothraki do, all she had to do was fly parallel to the line like she did with the wagon train. She could have torched 1000 Lannisters per pass. Of course its not a real battle but a tv show, D&D needed their big battle scene so it's understandable why it played out like it did

[Jcat]

4 hours ago, Super Mario said:

This is an obvious strategic mistake by Dany. Keep in mind she's not riding a horse over the hill, she's flying a dragon. She could attack from any angle she wants. Instead of running perpendicular into the Lannister line like the Dothraki do, all she had to do was fly parallel to the line like she did with the wagon train. She could have torched 1000 Lannisters per pass. Of course its not a real battle but a tv show, D&D needed their big battle scene so it's understandable why it played out like it did

Good point.  She could have flown and burned down the Lannister/Tarly line immediately prior to the Dothraki engaging it.  It would have been even more effective if she had descended out of the clouds SILENTLY parallel with the Lannister/Tarly column.  But T.rex gotta roar!  And you are right the show runners had to have that visual with the Daenerys, Drogon and the Dothraki all advancing together.

I will give Daenerys credit though as she did at least use the dragon fire to break the Lannister line.  As many others have commented Jon should have given Wun Wun some kind of giant shield to do the same at the Battle of the Bastards.  Frankly that big log he had at Hardhome would have done the trick just as well.

And one thing I will point out that I have not heard anyone mention--that was some kind of lucky the wagon with the Scorpion inside didn't burn.  I mean every wagon around it was on fire, and I saw no fireproofing material associated with that particular wagon.  It was just covered in a thin cloth.

[cade]

 

[Jcat]

5 hours ago, cade said:

It made perfect sense. As I noted before, that tiny amount of food couldn't feed her army for one day and was insignificant relative to all the Dothraki lives she saved by targeting enemy soldiers among and near the wagons. What made no sense, as others have mentioned, is not attacking a lot more of the phalanx before the Dothraki got too close, and not attacking it horizontally until it was entirely broken. But then the battle would've ended in 30 seconds and the writers couldn't allow that.

Because there has been such a massive amount of criticism across the fan base about the food, I went back and double-checked to make sure I'm not crazy, and yep, Drogon only incinerated about 35 wagons. In season 3 the Reach was sending 100 wagons of food per day into King's Landing, which is only a partial supply of what half a million people (KL's population according to Tyrion in episode 7 of season 3) would need every day. Wagons can't carry hundreds or even tens of thousands of pounds of food. I'm not an expert, but from what I've read even 3,000 pounds would be a very generous estimate.

Good point about the 100 wagons the Tyrells were sending to KL each day.  And 3,000 pounds per wagon sounds about right.  Of course, Conestoga wagons of frontier days could transport up to 6 tons (13,200 pounds).

Hey wouldn't it be neat if the Dothraki were actually cannibals.  Think of all the barbacue they would have available on the Field of Fire 2.0!  Hopefully they remembered to bring tabasco sauce on the journey.

I rewatched "Spoils of War" to see if there was any further hint of how Daenerys made her decision, but nothing new was apparent.

[Illiterati]

On 8/10/2017 at 7:27 AM, Johan Wehtje said:

This bothered me at first , but on rewatching you can see that she can't burn the Lannister Line directly once the Dothraki have met it as she would be burning her own troops, so she burns a colunm of wagons immediately behind the line so the Lannisters can't retreat and use as the wagons as defence (a tactic used by Boers as well as in the old American West) as well as taking out the rear echelon of the Lannister line.  

You have identified the number one tactical error she made.  Dothraki should have been nowhere near the line when she strafed it.

[Pecan]

It wouldn't have been possible for the specifics of the attack on the loot train to have come from Jon, because as we know he was back on Dragonstone. In my opinion, that's a missed opportunity because with Barry dead and Jorah not present, Dany doesn't have a seasoned Westerosi soldier to act as her general in the field, and that's the direction I'd like to see things go, for Jon to take on a leadership role in Dany's army to help her defeat Cersei and unite the south. 

 

[Johan Wehtje]

1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

You have identified the number one tactical error she made.  Dothraki should have been nowhere near the line when she strafed it.

Well along with the idea that the Dothraki shouldn't have been used except to mop up after Dany and Drogon didn't the show already establish that even a team Dany ignorant of the threat of the Scorpion Ballistas recognised that as near invulnerable as the Dragons might be Dany can be taken out with one lucky arrow, and if she was the only target on the battlefield she would naturally become the target of every single missile weapon in the Lanister's Army's arsenal , and it looks like the Dragonfire is delivered at a distance that would put her within reach of those missile weapons each time she attacks, having the Dothraki fall upon the Lanisters army simultaneously with her attack should decrease the chances of a lucky shot somewhat, I certainly think my aim might suffer of I was under attack from a dothraki horde? 

[Styl7]

2 hours ago, Pecan said:

It wouldn't have been possible for the specifics of the attack on the loot train to have come from Jon, because as we know he was back on Dragonstone. In my opinion, that's a missed opportunity because with Barry dead and Jorah not present, Dany doesn't have a seasoned Westerosi soldier to act as her general in the field, and that's the direction I'd like to see things go, for Jon to take on a leadership role in Dany's army to help her defeat Cersei and unite the south. 

 

The thing is that Dothraki wouldn't accept a random Westerosi man to lead them. 90000 Dothraki being under a Westerosi leader that never met? Jorah could be the leader because he understand the Dothraki, he speaks Dothraki.. But they wouldn't like to have Jon above them.. In the same way the Wildlings wouldn't  be lead by a random "Southern"Lord..

[I prefer summer]

A few comments on a number of previous posts (sorry, I'm not sure how to quote from multiple sources on this site):

Perhaps one reason that Dany didn't just use the Dothraki as mop up is because they needed a fight. These are people who believe that a wedding with fewer than three deaths is a dull affair. They need battle to stay sharp and to blow off steam that might otherwise be directed at each other, or at vulnerable local populations along their way.

Regarding the food wagons, Jaime tells Lord Tarley that they are "spread pretty thin," which is what prompts Tarley to suggest flogging stragglers. The wagons that Drogon burned were likely just a portion of what the Lannisters sacked from HG.

As far as who might ride the other dragons, there are theories that Jon might not be the only secret  Targaryen; some believe that Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Although I agree with some on this thread that he might not have the stomach for close battle.

Why might Tyrion have reacted differently to this battle versus Blackwater? In BW, he - and those he loved - were in imminent danger. It was a matter of survival. In this battle, he is on the side of the aggressor, however just and noble he may believe her quest to be. This battle was in full daylight, and I believe he may have been in closer physical proximity. He would have seen, heard, and even smelled more death and destruction. And he knew people who were on the other side, including Bronn and his beloved brother, Jaime.

Finally, someone suggested a saddle for Dany. Would Drogon allow himself to be saddled? Would a saddle interfere in some way with the dragon/rider connection? Did any previous Targaruen riders use saddles in combat? What about some armour for Dany? And now that Dany knows about the Scorpion, what about some armour for Drogon, including eye shields? Dany must know at least as much Targaryen history as Qyburn. Wouldn't she know about the previous dragon being taken down by an arrow in the eye?

 

[Jcat]

10 hours ago, Illiterati said:

You have identified the number one tactical error she made.  Dothraki should have been nowhere near the line when she strafed it.

I agree tactically, but would afterwards the Dothraki be like "hey you ruined our chance for glory!"

8 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Well along with the idea that the Dothraki shouldn't have been used except to mop up after Dany and Drogon didn't the show already establish that even a team Dany ignorant of the threat of the Scorpion Ballistas recognised that as near invulnerable as the Dragons might be Dany can be taken out with one lucky arrow, and if she was the only target on the battlefield she would naturally become the target of every single missile weapon in the Lanister's Army's arsenal , and it looks like the Dragonfire is delivered at a distance that would put her within reach of those missile weapons each time she attacks, having the Dothraki fall upon the Lanisters army simultaneously with her attack should decrease the chances of a lucky shot somewhat, I certainly think my aim might suffer of I was under attack from a dothraki horde? 

This is what Tyrion realizes...one lucky or not all that lucky shot takes out Daenerys, and their 'throne game' is over.  There is no back-up leader.  Missendei even says as much as I recall.

6 hours ago, Styl7 said:

The thing is that Dothraki wouldn't accept a random Westerosi man to lead them. 90000 Dothraki being under a Westerosi leader that never met? Jorah could be the leader because he understand the Dothraki, he speaks Dothraki.. But they wouldn't like to have Jon above them.. In the same way the Wildlings wouldn't  be lead by a random "Southern"Lord..

Although Jon was able to get Wildings to follow him, it really seems a stretch that Dothraki would as well.  But when all of humanity is threatened by the White Walkers who knows?

[Jcat]

9 hours ago, Pecan said:

It wouldn't have been possible for the specifics of the attack on the loot train to have come from Jon, because as we know he was back on Dragonstone. In my opinion, that's a missed opportunity because with Barry dead and Jorah not present, Dany doesn't have a seasoned Westerosi soldier to act as her general in the field, and that's the direction I'd like to see things go, for Jon to take on a leadership role in Dany's army to help her defeat Cersei and unite the south. 

 

Jon might become the military leader of his and Daenerys combined forces against Cersei, but only when the battle with the White Walkers has come to a successful conclusion.  And of course, they might by that point be his forces as well, either as the revealed true heir apparent or as Daenerys' husband/co-ruler.  I tend to agree with others who have suggested Cersei will persist until the end of season 8.

[Jcat]

4 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

A few comments on a number of previous posts (sorry, I'm not sure how to quote from multiple sources on this site):

Perhaps one reason that Dany didn't just use the Dothraki as mop up is because they needed a fight. These are people who believe that a wedding with fewer than three deaths is a dull affair. They need battle to stay sharp and to blow off steam that might otherwise be directed at each other, or at vulnerable local populations along their way.

Regarding the food wagons, Jaime tells Lord Tarley that they are "spread pretty thin," which is what prompts Tarley to suggest flogging stragglers. The wagons that Drogon burned were likely just a portion of what the Lannisters sacked from HG.

As far as who might ride the other dragons, there are theories that Jon might not be the only secret  Targaryen; some believe that Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Although I agree with some on this thread that he might not have the stomach for close battle.

Why might Tyrion have reacted differently to this battle versus Blackwater? In BW, he - and those he loved - were in imminent danger. It was a matter of survival. In this battle, he is on the side of the aggressor, however just and noble he may believe her quest to be. This battle was in full daylight, and I believe he may have been in closer physical proximity. He would have seen, heard, and even smelled more death and destruction. And he knew people who were on the other side, including Bronn and his beloved brother, Jaime.

Finally, someone suggested a saddle for Dany. Would Drogon allow himself to be saddled? Would a saddle interfere in some way with the dragon/rider connection? Did any previous Targaruen riders use saddles in combat? What about some armour for Dany? And now that Dany knows about the Scorpion, what about some armour for Drogon, including eye shields? Dany must know at least as much Targaryen history as Qyburn. Wouldn't she know about the previous dragon being taken down by an arrow in the eye?

 

All good points and I agree with most of them.

Yeah it took me a while to figure out the multiple posts thing.  Here is how you do it.  You scroll down through the posts you want to comment on and hit the 'Quote' button on each one.  Then down at the bottom you will see a little tab with the number of quotes you clicked on (i.e. 3 Quotes).  All you do is click on that tab and all the quotes you selected will appear in the comment box.