Jcat

Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

115 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Well along with the idea that the Dothraki shouldn't have been used except to mop up after Dany and Drogon didn't the show already establish that even a team Dany ignorant of the threat of the Scorpion Ballistas recognised that as near invulnerable as the Dragons might be Dany can be taken out with one lucky arrow, and if she was the only target on the battlefield she would naturally become the target of every single missile weapon in the Lanister's Army's arsenal , and it looks like the Dragonfire is delivered at a distance that would put her within reach of those missile weapons each time she attacks, having the Dothraki fall upon the Lanisters army simultaneously with her attack should decrease the chances of a lucky shot somewhat, I certainly think my aim might suffer of I was under attack from a dothraki horde? 

Good point, but if she attacked the beginning of the phalanx from directly above and moved horizontally, she would've been so shielded by Drogon that it would've been almost impossible for the archers to have any window of aim at her, and if they didn't run they would've been so quickly engulfed in flames that they may not have even gotten a shot off. The insane risk was targeting the ballista at that angle.

2 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Perhaps one reason that Dany didn't just use the Dothraki as mop up is because they needed a fight. These are people who believe that a wedding with fewer than three deaths is a dull affair. They need battle to stay sharp and to blow off steam that might otherwise be directed at each other, or at vulnerable local populations along their way.

Interesting point worth considering, but presumably she's been trying to reform the Dothraki out of that mentality (just as she ordered Yara to do with the Ironborn) and that would just be feeding into it, at least to some degree. It would be very disturbing on another level, also, as it would mean she intentionally allowed many of her own solders to die just to keep the rest in line. As effectively their God Empress, I doubt and have seen no sign that she needs to do that, but certainly there's a lot of room to speculate since D&D haven't given us any Dothraki perspective since they knelt to her.

For me, the best way to suspend disbelief about the odd restraint Dany showed would be that, even though they were all legitimate military targets, she just didn't feel right about incinerating hundreds or thousands of people with a dragon when they had no real chance to fight back. Jon may have also helped her realize that using a dragon like that would make it more difficult to win people over and achieve and maintain peace in the long run. Yet she still felt she had to strike back and send a message, so she had Drogon break a small portion of the phalanx and then blow up some wagons just to display a little of his power.

I still don't buy that theory, either, because it again would mean that she intentionally got many Dothraki killed, and I think she has too much "Fire and Blood" in her to show that level of mercy to her enemies in this context. Although she did show a crazy amount of leniency in Slaver's Bay overall (yes, even including her ruthless response to the child crucifixions), and that she hasn't already attacked the Red Keep despite her power to easily do so is extraordinarily, almost implausibly advanced for her time.

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19 hours ago, Jcat said:

All good points and I agree with most of them.

Yeah it took me a while to figure out the multiple posts thing.  Here is how you do it.  You scroll down through the posts you want to comment on and hit the 'Quote' button on each one.  Then down at the bottom you will see a little tab with the number of quotes you clicked on (i.e. 3 Quotes).  All you do is click on that tab and all the quotes you selected will appear in the comment box.

Thanks, Jcat! 

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Interesting points, Cade. I agree that Dany is trying to change Dothraki and Ironborn behaviour, but such change takes time. And having the Dothraki limit their violence to the battlefield is a change in the right direction. As for putting Dothraki lives in peril for her own gains, I believe that if she asked them directly what they wanted, they would have chosen the path she selected, rather than having her fight just with her dragons. In fact, I suspect they might have taken great offence at being left out of such a battle, especially given that "open fields" are their ideal fighting conditions,according to King Robert.

Finally, taking the Dothraki into battle wasn't just to keep them in line - it was also to keep them sharp. Better to bring them to a fight they can excel at than to bring a "rusty" army into battle in less than ideal conditions later on. 

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Lady Olenna was the one to tell Dany not to listen to the sheep but be a dragon.

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On 2017-08-12 at 2:43 AM, Illiterati said:

You have identified the number one tactical error she made.  Dothraki should have been nowhere near the line when she strafed it.

And did anyone else find it odd how the lead Dothraki warriors managed to ride right through blazing fire without getting burned? I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about Dany being "The Unburned," but her army? It's already been established that Dothraki (the Khals, at least) burn quite nicely.

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1 hour ago, I prefer summer said:

And did anyone else find it odd how the lead Dothraki warriors managed to ride right through blazing fire without getting burned? I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about Dany being "The Unburned," but her army? It's already been established that Dothraki (the Khals, at least) burn quite nicely.

Well that something I can't understand either...

just one thing.. The Unburned doesn't necessarily mean fireproof..

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3 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

I agree that Dany is trying to change Dothraki and Ironborn behaviour, but such change takes time. And having the Dothraki limit their violence to the battlefield is a change in the right direction. As for putting Dothraki lives in peril for her own gains, I believe that if she asked them directly what they wanted, they would have chosen the path she selected, rather than having her fight just with her dragons. In fact, I suspect they might have taken great offence at being left out of such a battle, especially given that "open fields" are their ideal fighting conditions,according to King Robert.

Finally, taking the Dothraki into battle wasn't just to keep them in line - it was also to keep them sharp. Better to bring them to a fight they can excel at than to bring a "rusty" army into battle in less than ideal conditions later on. 

Agreed on all points. I wasn't saying she shouldn't have taken the Dothraki with her, just doubting that it was necessary or wise to have so many of them die charging into the phalanx when she could've so easily broken it beforehand. But I'll stop nitpicking about this and just concede that rather than saying it made no sense, I should just say it's subjective.

I doubt they even had the budget to do the CG and stunt work necessary to show Drogon burning hundreds or thousands of people. It was much cheaper to use practical effects to blow up the wagons, and they already set a record with the amount of stunt people they set on fire, both in total (63) and simultaneously (20). Amazing work by the production crew.

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47 minutes ago, cade said:

I doubt they even had the budget to do the CG and stunt work necessary to show Drogon burning hundreds or thousands of people. It was much cheaper to use practical effects to blow up the wagons, and they already set a record with the amount of stunt people they set on fire, both in total (63) and simultaneously (20). Amazing work by the production crew.

I agree! The Inside the Episode demonstration of how they achieved the battle effects was almost as good as the show!

 

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4 hours ago, Deminelle said:

Lady Olenna was the one to tell Dany not to listen to the sheep but be a dragon.

Yeah...I would be a liitle careful from taking advice from Lady Olenna.  She did not play the game very well after she offed Joffrey.  And she ultimately lost.

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4 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Interesting points, Cade. I agree that Dany is trying to change Dothraki and Ironborn behaviour, but such change takes time. And having the Dothraki limit their violence to the battlefield is a change in the right direction. As for putting Dothraki lives in peril for her own gains, I believe that if she asked them directly what they wanted, they would have chosen the path she selected, rather than having her fight just with her dragons. In fact, I suspect they might have taken great offence at being left out of such a battle, especially given that "open fields" are their ideal fighting conditions,according to King Robert.

Finally, taking the Dothraki into battle wasn't just to keep them in line - it was also to keep them sharp. Better to bring them to a fight they can excel at than to bring a "rusty" army into battle in less than ideal conditions later on. 

Yeah somebody mentioned something similar on a Youtube show--what does Daenerys do with the Dothraki assuming she wins the Iron Throne?  I don't think it is possible to reform the Dothraki into good, law abiding Westerosi.  So thats a real problem.  Of course, cynically the best thing to do is to almost use them all up, and send the rest back to Essos with pockets full of gold after everything is done.

Or how things should have worked-out for the Sarmatian Knights in the movie King Arthur 2004.  The Sarmatians who hailed from Scythia were a much better equavalent for the Dothraki than the Huns or Mongols.  They fit the racial profile better and they were reputed wildmen (at least in classical Greek times).

I don't know if people compare the Dothraki to Mongols, but if they do thats not a good analogy.  The Mongols would never have been so rash as to straight away charge a formed line.  They would have weakened the line first with their main weapon the compound bow, wheeling in precise mounted formation the likes of which few cavalry forces have every achieved.  Of course, Genghis Khan and his descendents didn't have a dragon to call on which is probably a good thing as far as western civilization is concerned.

2 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Well that something I can't understand either...

just one thing.. The Unburned doesn't necessarily mean fireproof..

Yeah...thats kinda of a problem.  But in a show were people are brought back from being stone cold dead, I think it's probably best not to think about it too much.  I suppose it has to be some kind of spiritual quality (dragon power), rather than a physical quality (asbestos-lined skin).

1 hour ago, cade said:

Agreed on all points. I wasn't saying she shouldn't have taken the Dothraki with her, just doubting that it was necessary or wise to have so many of them die charging into the phalanx when she could've so easily broken it beforehand. But I'll stop nitpicking about this and just concede that rather than saying it made no sense, I should just say it's subjective.

I doubt they even had the budget to do the CG and stunt work necessary to show Drogon burning hundreds or thousands of people. It was much cheaper to use practical effects to blow up the wagons, and they already set a record with the amount of stunt people they set on fire, both in total (63) and simultaneously (20). Amazing work by the production crew.

Daenerys and Drogon are like the air force, while the Dothraki are the ground force required to hold the field of battle.

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On 8/8/2017 at 9:42 AM, El Guapo said:

The fact that Dany even asks Jon his opinion is an indication of the worth she is starting to place on him.  In the next episode preview he is actually in the painted table chamber with her and her council.

Both Dany and Jon were chosen by the people to lead- unlike Cersai and other rulers. It would make sense that she values his opinion as someone who is as close to his peer as there is. She wants him to bend the knee but why should he? Because she has dragons and the Dothraki? That's ruling by fear which is not how Jon and I believe Dany want to rule.

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3 hours ago, WCPhan said:

Both Dany and Jon were chosen by the people to lead- unlike Cersai and other rulers. It would make sense that she values his opinion as someone who is as close to his peer as there is. She wants him to bend the knee but why should he? Because she has dragons and the Dothraki? That's ruling by fear which is not how Jon and I believe Dany want to rule.

Good point.  Of course, Daenerys seems to be surrendering to more expedient and brutal measures.

Ok.  Thanks everyone for your thoughts.  It's just a bit over an hour from show time here.  Therefore I will make my best guess to answer the question posed by this thread.

I would very much like if Tyrion was the one who suggested the attack.  He needs the win as badly as Daenerys herself.  But I think the script calls for him to become increasingly sidelined as the Queen's Hand for now anyways.  So unfortunately he was not the one.

So who is the mastermind?  I would agree with those who suggested Davos.  I don't know why it just sort of makes sense.

However, never underestimate D & D to just move on and leave it an open question.

 

 

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Nothing!  I guess Daenerys figured it out all her little self.  Episode 5 is one of the worst episodes ever.  I am really unhappy with D & D's writing, I can't believe GRRM approved of this crap!

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On 2017-08-08 at 4:51 PM, Jcat said:
In this episode, Daenerys was all motivated to go and burn down the Red Keep after hearing about the defeat of her Tyrell allies.  Then Tyrion and Jon in turn advise her against it.  Next we see Daenerys, Drogon and the Dothraki attack the marching Lannister forces.  So who advised her to take that action?  Tyrion?  Varys?  Jon?  Missandei?  Daenerys herself?
 
Attacking the Lannister/Tarly forces, who were strung out in column and heavily laden with supply wagons, was a master stroke.  Of course, no one ever bothers with reconnaissance or counter-reconnaissance in this world so they are constantly being surprised.  Nevertheless, given the current operational situation facing Daenerys' forces it was the correct decision.  (She should not have gone after the Red Keep--Cersei likely has an air defense battery of Scorpions (i.e. ballistas) and the Dothraki are shit at sieges).
 
I am not a book reader, and I don't usually get upset about plot inconsistencies and clumsy character arcs.  But, if D & D don't reveal who advised Daenerys to make that attack I am going to lose my shit!  Personally, I hope it was Tyrion, because he could use a win.  But who do you think it was?

Lol master stroke? Danerys in game of thrones is the most stupid person i have ever seen in television.

At the start of season 7 she has like 500-1000 ships, 100,000 Dothraki, 10,000 Unsullied, Dorne, Reach and sellswords with her and 3 dragons and the Lannisters have like 30,000 troops and Danerys has been completely crippled and forced to peace. How fucking stupid do you have to be to fail so hard. A toddler would be sitting the Iron Throne allready with Westeros united.

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5 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Lol master stroke? Danerys in game of thrones is the most stupid person i have ever seen in television.

At the start of season 7 she has like 500-1000 ships, 100,000 Dothraki, 10,000 Unsullied, Dorne, Reach and sellswords with her and 3 dragons and the Lannisters have like 30,000 troops and Danerys has been completely crippled and forced to peace. How fucking stupid do you have to be to fail so hard. A toddler would be sitting the Iron Throne allready with Westeros united.

There is no 'drama' in easy victories.  I don't mind some drama, as long as it is logically coherent.  Daenerys' strategy has been a farce up to the Field of Fire 2.0.  And unfortunately my favorite character Tyrion was the author of that strategy.  Damn show runners!

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