Harrenhal overlords

[ludkar]

Was the lords of Harrenhal sworn to House Tully or directly to the crown?

[Damon_Tor]

All of them were sworn to house Tully.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Weren't the original Lords of Harrenhall actually also Lords Paramount of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands before the conquest?

[Visenya Stark]

3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Weren't the original Lords of Harrenhall actually also Lords Paramount of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands before the conquest?

Yes, except they were Kings, not Lords Paramount.

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Weren't the original Lords of Harrenhall actually also Lords Paramount of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands before the conquest?

 

43 minutes ago, Visenya Stark said:

Yes, except they were Kings, not Lords Paramount.

Depends how to consider it.  The same day Harren took up residence Aegon arrived at Kings Landing and named himself king as well.  So he was never the undisputed King/lord.

[Nittanian]

13 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Weren't the original Lords of Harrenhall actually also Lords Paramount of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands before the conquest?

Harwyn Hoare, King of the Iron Islands, conquered the riverlands from the Storm Kings of House Durrandon. Harwyn Hardhand spent much of his reign suppressing rebellions on the mainland. His son Halleck made his seat at Fairmarket in the northern riverlands, and he unsuccessfully waged war against neighboring kingdoms like the Vale. Halleck's son, Harren Hoare, desired a grander seat than Fairmarket or the Iron Islands, so he began construction of Harrenhal by the Gods Eye. Harren the Black, the last of three Kings of the Isles and the Rivers, was killed by Balerion the Black Dread during the burning of Harrenhal. With House Hoare extinguished, Aegon the Conqueror named the Tullys as Lords Paramount of the Trident and allowed the ironborn to select the Greyjoys as Lords of the Iron Islands. So far "Lord Paramount" has only been used as a formal title for the post-Conquest rulers of the Reach/Mander, the riverlands, and the stormlands.  

[Damon_Tor]

9 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

Depends how to consider it.  The same day Harren took up residence Aegon arrived at Kings Landing and named himself king as well.  So he was never the undisputed King/lord.

He was pretty damn undisputed while he was building the thing. His grandfather had taken over the Riverlands decades before.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Harwyn Hoare, King of the Iron Islands, conquered the riverlands from the Storm Kings of House Durrandon. Harwyn Hardhand spent much of his reign suppressing rebellions on the mainland. His son Halleck made his seat at Fairmarket in the northern riverlands, and he unsuccessfully waged war against neighboring kingdoms like the Vale. Halleck's son, Harren Hoare, desired a grander seat than Fairmarket or the Iron Islands, so he began construction of Harrenhal by the Gods Eye. Harren the Black, the last of three Kings of the Isles and the Rivers, was killed by Balerion the Black Dread during the burning of Harrenhal. With House Hoare extinguished, Aegon the Conqueror named the Tullys as Lords Paramount of the Trident and allowed the ironborn to select the Greyjoys as Lords of the Iron Islands. So far "Lord Paramount" has only been used as a formal title for the post-Conquest rulers of the Reach/Mander, the riverlands, and the stormlands.  

Thanks for the details!  Just to make sure I got it right, the riverlands used to belong to the Storm Kings (the Durrandons), then briefly to the Kings of the Iron Islands, then to the Tullys after the conquest.  The riverlands were never their own kingdom.

[Damon_Tor]

10 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Thanks for the details!  Just to make sure I got it right, the riverlands used to belong to the Storm Kings (the Durrandons), then briefly to the Kings of the Iron Islands, then to the Tullys after the conquest.  The riverlands were never their own kingdom.

Not entirely true, there were Kings of the Rivers (many of them, from many different houses) but it's always been a hotly contested region.

[Nittanian]

3 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Thanks for the details!  Just to make sure I got it right, the riverlands used to belong to the Storm Kings (the Durrandons), then briefly to the Kings of the Iron Islands, then to the Tullys after the conquest.  The riverlands were never their own kingdom.

The riverlands were actually ruled by native dynasties of varying power for thousands of years. First Men dynasties included the Fishers, Blackwoods, Brackens, and the Mudds, the last of whom were killed off by Andals. The Justmans (founded by a Blackwood/Bracken bastard) were the first Andal house to unite the riverlands from petty kings, but after three centuries they fell to ironborn attacks, plunging the riverlands into rival petty kingdoms again.

The Teagues eventually reunited the riverlands and ruled for some time, but Humfrey Teague made the unwise decision to try to stamp out worship of the old gods. The Blackwoods rebelled with the assistance of the Tullys, and Lord Rodrik Blackwood sought the aid of his in-law, the Storm King Arlan III Durrandon. The Teagues, Rodrik, and other powerful river lords died during this war, so in the power vacuum Arlan decided to keep the riverlands under the control of Storm's End.

The Durrandons ruled the riverlands for three centuries, although river lords periodically rebelled. After becoming King of the Iron Islands, Harwyn Hoare attacked the mainland. Hoping to regain their independence, many river lords joined the ironborn against the Storm Kings. Harwyn forced Arrec Durrandon to abandon the riverlands, but then kept the riverlands for himself. Aegon the Conqueror then killed Harwyn's grandson, Harren the Black. So, the Teagues might have died out seven centuries ago (300 years of the Iron Throne, preceded by 3 generations of Hoares, preceded by 300 years of the Storm Kings). 

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

He was pretty damn undisputed while he was building the thing. His grandfather had taken over the Riverlands decades before.

But how can you be the lord of a castle that doesn't exist, and where you do not live?  We are explicitly told he did not take up residence until the day Aegon landed.  Since immediately thereafter Riverlords began declaring for him(meaning Aegon), it is arguable that the Lord of Harrenhall never ruled the entirety of the Riverlands.

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

But how can you be the lord of a castle that doesn't exist, and where you do not live?  We are explicitly told he did not take up residence until the day Aegon landed.  Since immediately thereafter Riverlords began declaring for him(meaning Aegon), it is arguable that the Lord of Harrenhall never ruled the entirety of the Riverlands.

No but he was the King of Rivers, like his father and grandfather. Their seat of power was a keep in Fairmarket IIRC.

[cpg2016]

On 8/8/2017 at 2:56 PM, ludkar said:

Was the lords of Harrenhal sworn to House Tully or directly to the crown?

Post-Aegon I, they are sworn to raise their banners in support of House Tully but the castle and it's incomes and lands belong to the Crown, which is one of the many reasons the Tully's are the weakest of the major Lords Paramount.  Their most powerful vassal doesn't owe them anything.