Jcat

Should Tyrion resign as Hand...nominate Ser Jorah his replacement...and go north with Jon?

63 posts in this topic

There is no way that Tyrion should resign as Hand, and the in no way if he did that he should be replaced by Jorah.  Like other have stated Jorah is too emotionally invested with Dany, he may be a good warrior and tactician and he would have no conflict like Tyrion but his love for Dany would cause him to do things to please her and not serve her.  Tyrion should remain as hand but when it comes to the actual waging of war he should be in the know but coming up with it should be left to those that have been training and learning the ways of war.  Unfortunately those are in short supply for Dany right now in fact Jon and Davos are the only ones currently available but they have another fight on their mind.

Just look at the other side, Qyburn is Cersei's hand, but who runs the war effort Jamie and Randyll are commanding the armies and Euron commands the navy.  Cersei has not become some master planner, she just has better more experienced people running her war effort, she also is not waging war under any constraint, she already has the hearts of the people so anything she does will be seen as defending them whereas Dany is trying to win the hearts of the people and her last name is already a strike against her.  That is where Tyrion is most effective in the post war reconstruction world.  Dany is frustrated because she thought it was going to be a cake walk like all her other conquests not taking into account that in her other conquests the people welcomed her as a liberator, the people in Westeros see her as the daughter of the mad king.  

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Wow!  Some really great points made all around.  Thanks for your views.

I agree Tyrion is likely going to remain with Daenerys.  I just don't like to see him continuing to fail.  To me it does not ring true to the wicked smart and savvy character I came to know and like in previous seasons.  But maybe the show runners are dragging him down at the moment so they can lift him up later on.  I hope so anyway.

 

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1 hour ago, WCPhan said:

Tyrion is a strong advisor, just not when it comes to military tactics. But, let's be realistic, did anyone else see the taking of HughGardens?  That was a brilliant move by Jamie, not Cersai. Snow or Davos are the military minds. Jorah is somewhat of a military mind but a battle strategist is Davos. 

He was a strong military stategist, at least for blackwater. 

Now though the showrunners need a LOT of pieces to be removed from the board and they're using Tyrion to do it. 

Oh, and ignoring geography. 

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At the moment, Daenerys doesn't really have a small council, which is part of the issue.

Tyrion is her hand, that is clear, but a hand is not a military specialist or a master of coin, he is the right hand to the Queen or King. As Ned says at the start, 'what the King dreams, the hand builds' or as Robert put it, 'the King eats and the hand takes the shit'. A hand's work is general and could be anything, sometimes taking on the role of King or Queen in their absence. But if the hand could do everything, all those Targaryen kings and Robert wouldn't have needed to appoint a master of coin, master of whispers, master of ships, master of laws etc.

At the moment, of the people that follow Daenerys around, Missandei seems to be some sort of herald/advisor but she doesn't really seem to have much input. Grey Worm is a military commander, but more so of the Unsullied as opposed to her entire army. Varys has been a master of whispers in King's Landing, but that doesn't seem to be his role for Daenerys; it's more like she has him around to keep an eye on him as opposed to entrusting him with any of her business.

This all means Tyrion has to go over and above his role as hand, as he's doing a bit of everything. I don't think he is bad hand, by any means. I just think he needs help in areas that he is no an expert, such as war. Having someone like Jon and Davos around will certainly ease the pressure on him on that sense, but how long do they intend to stay? And do they really want to give advice to a Queen they refuse to bend the knee to and is essentially holding them as prisoners?

 

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I agree Jester.  I thought Tyrion was a competent military strategist.  But in this regard he is getting totally dissed...not just by Daenerys, but by a majority of show fans as well!

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Good point Jordan.  Daenerys could stand to fill-out her management team a bit more.  Maybe Jorah will be a useful addition.

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Being the Hand doesn't mean you have to be a great commander. Tyrion can still be a very good hand, he just doesn't seem to be a particularly good general.

 

 

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There is no more logic to the development of characters in the Show. If we assume that Jorah for the time being was not exposed to the willfulness of the show-writers, he should be at the military Level he was when he left Daenerys in S6. So he would be the best choice at the moment in the Show.

Davos, Tyrion have become a shadow of themselves; Arya, Qyburn, Cersei, Samwell have received an overpower package.

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6 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Jorah would be a poor choice, given his love for Daenerys. I think he would maybe be swayed to do things just to please her, as opposed to being the good of the realm. After all, it was love that made him end up doing stupid things when Lord of Bear Island. He would be a far better commander of her army. I think being her Hand, he'd be a bit too close for comfort. Would he really be willing to advise her on marriages when he is so in love with her himself?

Other than that, though, at the moment, she hasn't got too many options. Is Davos officially Jon's hand? I can't recall that being confirmed. If Jon was willing to let him, Davos would be a good choice for Daenerys. Davos also joked to Jon in that last episode about wanting to swap sides. Jon would likely be able to find a replacement for Davos, as he has many Northern Lords who would jump at the role. Only issues there are that would suggest favouritism from Jon amongst his bannermen. Also with Davos knowing the truth about what happened Jon at the Wall, Jon might want to keep him close.

I think it is a possibility that if/when Jorah reaches Dragonstone, that he may play an important role in convinvincing Dany to join Jon w/o him having to bend the knee. He can explain to her the way of the north and its constituents and how vital it is to kill the WW.(If he believes in them of course)

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JagLover -maybe the Hand does not need to be a great military commander as you say.  He maybe more like the National Security Advisor (with some other cabinet portfolios thrown in to boot).  If thats the case, he failed again in not selecting a Defense Security or Combatant Commander.  Unless that is supposed to be Greyworm?

Greywater-Watch -I am not a book reader, but just by watching the show these past seven seasons I have witnessed the diminution of some characters like Tyrion and the expansion of someother characters like Arya.  Maybe this is GRRM's masterplan.  If it is it sucks.

Machine -I am not sure what additional persuasive power Ser Jorah could bring to bare to convince Jon to bend the knee.  Tyrion and Jon had a relationship, Jorah and Jon do not.  And Jorah's northern affliation has become rather threadbare at this point in the show plot anyway.

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22 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

He was a strong military stategist, at least for blackwater. 

Now though the showrunners need a LOT of pieces to be removed from the board and they're using Tyrion to do it. 

Oh, and ignoring geography

LOL   What's funny, is that in Season 1 Episode 1, King Robert goes to Winterfel with his entourage and Cersai complained about riding for 30 days. It's as if after that episode, they decided to forgo time and distance with all battles.

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Jorah comes back, becomes Dany's military commander. Starts winning her lots of battles, she falls in love with Jorah because she is in love with power and that's what he is giving her. Jorah becomes Dany's Nissa Nissa and has to die. 

Doesn't have to make perfect sense .... just gotta have the shock/ratings value!

But on a more serious note, Tyrion is fine as hand, as other have mentioned. Jorah or someone else (if they didn't kill off everyone else) should be in charge of her military tactics, but Tyrion isn't THAT bad. You learn from mistakes, almost all the generals on the show have made mistakes...

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In the real world, the human condition (which GRRM likes to write to) should show that Tyrion would not be a good battle commander, as his other talents are so good.  He cannot be good at everything, it's not reasonable.  He did well defending King's Landing, largely through reading about what to do combined with a high level of intelligence/cunning.  

He certainly never served in a rebellion or insurgency.  Jorah has...twice (Robert's rebellion, and the Greyjoy insurgency).  His experience trumps both Jon and Davos in that regard.  They are both capable and have good experience...but not to Jorah's level.

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Tyrion is going to turn it around. He miscalculated a bit, probably because he underestimated Cersei. He'll do something to redeem himself.

Also, he's obviously not too much in the doghouse because Dany allowed him to accompany her to the attack on the Lannister forces.

Perhaps he'll even redeem himself in episode 5. After all, we do get to see Varys saying Tyrion has to "convince her" of something. And Dany is kind of acting all Mad Queen-y with her "bend the knee or die" stuff. So maybe he talks her down a bit.

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3 minutes ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Tyrion is going to turn it around. He miscalculated a bit, probably because he underestimated Cersei. He'll do something to redeem himself.

Also, he's obviously not too much in the doghouse because Dany allowed him to accompany her to the attack on the Lannister forces.

Perhaps he'll even redeem himself in episode 5. After all, we do get to see Varys saying Tyrion has to "convince her" of something. And Dany is kind of acting all Mad Queen-y with her "bend the knee or die" stuff. So maybe he talks her down a bit.

I hope they throw Tyrion a bone and let him do something right. Just so, as you said, he get's back in Dany's good graces and can go back to being more like the Tyrion we used to know.
But if they don't and she still takes his advice, I don't know how believable that would be. Since I assume after this fight she is going to think she can win all by herself without a small council. That's just assumptions though.

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He will.  Tyrion is too important to just fade away...and remember, he is one of GRRM's favorites.  This season's arc is one of failure followed by success, he will do something big and soon!  

 

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2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Jorah comes back, becomes Dany's military commander. Starts winning her lots of battles, she falls in love with Jorah because she is in love with power and that's what he is giving her. Jorah becomes Dany's Nissa Nissa and has to die. 

Doesn't have to make perfect sense .... just gotta have the shock/ratings value!

But on a more serious note, Tyrion is fine as hand, as other have mentioned. Jorah or someone else (if they didn't kill off everyone else) should be in charge of her military tactics, but Tyrion isn't THAT bad. You learn from mistakes, almost all the generals on the show have made mistakes...

On second thought I would be fine with Tyrion and Jorah working together.  After all they did alright together during their sojourn to meet Daenerys.  But some where I heard Jorah will be going north with Jon.  I don't get that at all?

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2 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

In the real world, the human condition (which GRRM likes to write to) should show that Tyrion would not be a good battle commander, as his other talents are so good.  He cannot be good at everything, it's not reasonable.  He did well defending King's Landing, largely through reading about what to do combined with a high level of intelligence/cunning.  

He certainly never served in a rebellion or insurgency.  Jorah has...twice (Robert's rebellion, and the Greyjoy insurgency).  His experience trumps both Jon and Davos in that regard.  They are both capable and have good experience...but not to Jorah's level.

Good point.  I remember Tyrion studying up on siege tactics before the Battle of the Blackwater.  So maybe he was not a student of military affairs as such, but interested in a more rounded education.  In contemporary terms he is more fit to be Secretary of State, than Secretary of Defense.

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2 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Tyrion is going to turn it around. He miscalculated a bit, probably because he underestimated Cersei. He'll do something to redeem himself.

Also, he's obviously not too much in the doghouse because Dany allowed him to accompany her to the attack on the Lannister forces.

Perhaps he'll even redeem himself in episode 5. After all, we do get to see Varys saying Tyrion has to "convince her" of something. And Dany is kind of acting all Mad Queen-y with her "bend the knee or die" stuff. So maybe he talks her down a bit.

I really hope so too.  Or at least we get some inkling of how Cersei has become so brilliant all of a sudden.

2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I hope they throw Tyrion a bone and let him do something right. Just so, as you said, he get's back in Dany's good graces and can go back to being more like the Tyrion we used to know.
But if they don't and she still takes his advice, I don't know how believable that would be. Since I assume after this fight she is going to think she can win all by herself without a small council. That's just assumptions though.

I fear thats what the bit in the preview between Varys and Tyrion is all about, Daenerys now thinks she's master commander, and she doesn't have to heed anyone else's advice.

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

He will.  Tyrion is too important to just fade away...and remember, he is one of GRRM's favorites.  This season's arc is one of failure followed by success, he will do something big and soon!  

 

I hope you are right.  I have to say though I am amazed how the fanbase itself has turned on Tyrion.  Like some formerly beloved pitcher who has lost his stuff...they are screaming 'get him out of there...get him out of there.'

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4 minutes ago, Jcat said:

Or at least we get some inkling of how Cersei has become so brilliant all of a sudden.

Has she become brilliant? Or has she just become ruthless? She was always evil, but was also always worried about protecting her family and therefore had to consider the political ramifications of her actions. Her family are all dead now, so she has nothing to hold back from.

I think there is a bit of informational assymetry here that people are forgetting: Cersei and Jaime know that Casterley Rock's mines and treasury are both barren, but Tyrion does not (I don't think; please correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore, Tyrion believes they must take the Rock even if the Lannisters know they're coming. However, Cersei and Jaime know that Highgarden is the key. If Tyrion had known that the Rock was basically worthless, he would have focused on the defense of Highgarden rather than the offensive at the Rock. You could obviously argue he should have done this anyway.

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