Jcat

Should Tyrion resign as Hand...nominate Ser Jorah his replacement...and go north with Jon?

63 posts in this topic

44 minutes ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Has she become brilliant? Or has she just become ruthless? She was always evil, but was also always worried about protecting her family and therefore had to consider the political ramifications of her actions. Her family are all dead now, so she has nothing to hold back from.

I think there is a bit of informational assymetry here that people are forgetting: Cersei and Jaime know that Casterley Rock's mines and treasury are both barren, but Tyrion does not (I don't think; please correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore, Tyrion believes they must take the Rock even if the Lannisters know they're coming. However, Cersei and Jaime know that Highgarden is the key. If Tyrion had known that the Rock was basically worthless, he would have focused on the defense of Highgarden rather than the offensive at the Rock. You could obviously argue he should have done this anyway.

Exactly right.  I have been saying the same thing.  Tyrion did not know the Lannister mines were played-out.  Cersei knew because Tywin had told her, and she obviously told Jaime.  So going after Casterly Rock given what Tyrion knows is a good idea.  

But alot of fans forget this fact, and they dump on Tyrion like he is an idiot for making that move.

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11 minutes ago, Jcat said:

Exactly right.  I have been saying the same thing.  Tyrion did not know the Lannister mines were played-out.  Cersei knew because Tywin had told her, and she obviously told Jaime.  So going after Casterly Rock given what Tyrion knows is a good idea.  

But alot of fans forget this fact, and they dump on Tyrion like he is an idiot for making that move.

I still think it was an error to go after gold instead of shoring up Highgarden to protect a very important ally who possesses both riches and high quantity food production. I think Tyrion made a personal decision and it hurt the cause.

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29 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I still think it was an error to go after gold instead of shoring up Highgarden to protect a very important ally who possesses both riches and high quantity food production. I think Tyrion made a personal decision and it hurt the cause.

I am confused about something: was not the Tyrell army supposed to be on the march towards cutting off King's Landing?  What happened with that part of the plan?  When the Lannister/Tarly army attacked it seemed the Tyrell army were all relaxing at High Garden.  And how does Olenna not know of the Tarly's betrayal?

Tyrion's primary mistake seems to be believing he had dependable and competent allies.

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I think he should back off the military duties and let jorah do it if he comes back. So far tyrions only military accomplishment is at the battle of black water. I think she did much better with jorah. She conquered 2 cities (not counting astapor) with minimal casulties on her side and while he doesn't want death he is willing to do what he has to to help dany.

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1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

Tarly was the Tyrell Army.  They had no ideal Tarly flipped.

Does Olenna have no spies in her territory?  I remember that a significant number of nobles of the Reach journeyed to King's Landing to get a sales pitch from Cersei and Jaime.  How did she not know about that?

45 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I think he should back off the military duties and let jorah do it if he comes back. So far tyrions only military accomplishment is at the battle of black water. I think she did much better with jorah. She conquered 2 cities (not counting astapor) with minimal casulties on her side and while he doesn't want death he is willing to do what he has to to help dany.

Come to think of it...would Tyrion have won the Battle of the Blackwater had Tywin and the Tyrell's not come to King's Landing in the nick of time?

Maybe I am overestimating Tyrion's capabilities?

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1 minute ago, Jcat said:

Does Olenna have no spies in her territory?  I remember that a significant number of nobles of the Reach journeyed to King's Landing to get a sales pitch from Cersei and Jaime.  How did she not know about that?

 

I completely agree with you on this point.  Olenna doesn't strike me the person who would have let herself be betrayed without finding out and at least getting a raven out to Dany.

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2 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I completely agree with you on this point.  Olenna doesn't strike me the person who would have let herself be betrayed without finding out and at least getting a raven out to Dany.

I liked Olenna until this season.  Then her superior attitude really began to annoy me.  In the end she got out played.  She did go out like champ though.

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I think Tyrion will be banished/imprisoned, for trying to save Jamie & Bronn. Ser Jorah will step in as Hand once he get's there. Dany may try to cook Tyrion, at which point we'll find out if they intend to identify him as a Targaryn, and dragon rider. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Katleesi said:

I think Tyrion will be banished/imprisoned, for trying to save Jamie & Bronn. Ser Jorah will step in as Hand once he get's there. Dany may try to cook Tyrion, at which point we'll find out if they intend to identify him as a Targaryn, and dragon rider. 

 

 

At least that would spice up Tyrion's sorry character arc this season.

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3 hours ago, Jcat said:

Does Olenna have no spies in her territory?  I remember that a significant number of nobles of the Reach journeyed to King's Landing to get a sales pitch from Cersei and Jaime.  How did she not know about that?

Come to think of it...would Tyrion have won the Battle of the Blackwater had Tywin and the Tyrell's not come to King's Landing in the nick of time?

Maybe I am overestimating Tyrion's capabilities?

I think olenna really took a hit when her family died and it threw her off. It's my idea on how she made those mistakes.

I think that tyrion did win that battle because if he hadn't decimated stannis's forces then it is possible it would go the other way. Even if it didn't and tywin and highgarden won the battle they would have taken so much damage that they might have been too weak to fight rob. That's my idea on the matter.

Tyrion would be a great hand in peacetime and rebuilding but he isn't great in war.

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34 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I think olenna really took a hit when her family died and it threw her off. It's my idea on how she made those mistakes.

I think that tyrion did win that battle because if he hadn't decimated stannis's forces then it is possible it would go the other way. Even if it didn't and tywin and highgarden won the battle they would have taken so much damage that they might have been too weak to fight rob. That's my idea on the matter.

Tyrion would be a great hand in peacetime and rebuilding but he isn't great in war.

I will accept that, but I actually think Olenna started losing her edge during the High Sparrow interval, as she did not play that situation very well.

Yes Tyrion's contribution to the battle was decisive, but had Tywin's forces not arrived, might Stannis had enough forces left to limp to victory?

I am still hopeful Tyrion will redeem himself before the wars are over.

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3 hours ago, Katleesi said:

I think Tyrion will be banished/imprisoned, for trying to save Jamie & Bronn. Ser Jorah will step in as Hand once he get's there. Dany may try to cook Tyrion, at which point we'll find out if they intend to identify him as a Targaryn, and dragon rider. 

 

 

Wait. Tyrion is a Targaryen now? What 

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2 hours ago, Snormund said:

Wait. Tyrion is a Targaryen now? What 

A rumor going around is that Tyrion may be the illegitimate issue of Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife) and King Aerys II (i.e. The Mad King).  That would make Tyrion a Targaryen bastard.  And that might qualify him to become a dragonrider.

 

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7 hours ago, Snormund said:

Wait. Tyrion is a Targaryen now? What 

In the books there is a reasonable argument for it. In the show there is not.

Spoiler

In the books ser barristan kinda hints that aery's raped joanna lannister and tyrion is alot stranger looking. In addition it specifically mentions him dreaming of dragons and being obsessed with them when he was younger.

 

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On 8/9/2017 at 6:59 AM, bb1180 said:

And that was a terrible scene,  because Jon and Davos should have immediately called her on that BS and pointed out that Dany is effectively holding them prisoner unless/until Jon bends the knee and submits the North to her rule.  

What does that have to do with Missandei's fate exactly?  They asked her about herself, not them.  They have political clout that and knew that they might be held prisoner when they came as they would under any similar circumstance in a nation at war.  She is a trusted advisor and friend who has no other contacts or allegiances in Westeros and is absolutely no risk to Dany except as a potential hostage which likely would not happen if she goes to Nath.  What part of this is bs exactly?  Illogical tirade...

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Posted (edited)

On 8/9/2017 at 0:14 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

Grey Worm is a military commander, but more so of the Unsullied as opposed to her entire army.

 

Plus he's more a field commander than a general as he lacks the necessary experience and training in command level tactics and movements.  He can certainly plan a battle and execute an attack, but he cannot devise an entire war strategy.  This is where the loss of Barristan and the absence of Jorah looms huge at this point.  Jon and Davos could offer advise, but neither are great generals (Jon may be but he didn't prove it when he let his emotions get the better of him against Ramsay; and Davos didn't really do anything at Kings Landing or Winterfell), nor are allied to her at the moment.  She really does have a huge hole in military leadership, especially with Grey Worm tied up at Casterly Rock.  She certainly could have used Daario and his mercenary company at this point.  It would be difficult to trust a jilted former lover with a leadership role though...

One point to note is that her military dearth of leadership is owed in part to her own current lack of allies.  Even when the Targaryens first invaded they brought a few of their vassal houses with them and Aegon had likely studied military strategy extensively before he began his conquest, despite his dragons.  Dany would have come close to solving this issue rather quickly had she arranged at least a temporary alliance with Jon which would enable her to potentially access some of his allies in the Eyrie.  Yon Royce could be a very effective commander for her.

Edited by Horus Ex Machina

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7 hours ago, Horus Ex Machina said:

 

Plus he's more a field commander than a general as he lacks the necessary experience and training in command level tactics and movements.  He can certainly plan a battle and execute an attack, but he cannot devise an entire war strategy.  This is where the loss of Barristan and the absence of Jorah looms huge at this point.  Jon and Davos could offer advise, but neither are great generals (Jon may be but he didn't prove it when he let his emotions get the better of him against Ramsay; and Davos didn't really do anything at Kings Landing or Winterfell), nor are allied to her at the moment.  She really does have a huge hole in military leadership, especially with Grey Worm tied up at Casterly Rock.  She certainly could have used Daario and his mercenary company at this point.  It would be difficult to trust a jilted former lover with a leadership role though...

One point to note is that her military dearth of leadership is owed in part to her own current lack of allies.  Even when the Targaryens first invaded they brought a few of their vassal houses with them and Aegon had likely studied military strategy extensively before he began his conquest, despite his dragons.  Dany would have come close to solving this issue rather quickly had she arranged at least a temporary alliance with Jon which would enable her to potentially access some of his allies in the Eyrie.  Yon Royce could be a very effective commander for her.

I am in total agreement that Grey Worm is more of a field commander.  He could however be considered a general grade officer under those circumstances.  But, Daenerys requires a Field Marshall or Chief of Staff or Defense Secretary to plan grand strategy.  And I am really disappointed that Tyrion does not appear to be up to the task.

After the TV series ends I may read the books to see if this is the way GRRM scripts the plotline for Tyrion.  I suspect it may not be similar.  And that D & D are hamhandedly using Tyrion as a whipping boy to allow Daenerys to shine.

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On 8/11/2017 at 4:31 AM, Horus Ex Machina said:

What does that have to do with Missandei's fate exactly?  They asked her about herself, not them.  They have political clout that and knew that they might be held prisoner when they came as they would under any similar circumstance in a nation at war.  She is a trusted advisor and friend who has no other contacts or allegiances in Westeros and is absolutely no risk to Dany except as a potential hostage which likely would not happen if she goes to Nath.  What part of this is bs exactly?  Illogical tirade...

They weren't asking about Missandei for her own sake,  either.  The question was really about Dany and the type of ruler she is.  Missandei is basically saying that Dany is such a great and wonderful ruler that she didn't have to demand allegiance from anyone,  but that they chose to follow her and that if she asked,  she could leave voluntarily. Yet she's saying that to two guys that Dany is demanding allegiance from and won't allow to leave.  Its something that Davos and Jon should have pointed out

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3 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

They weren't asking about Missandei for her own sake,  either.  The question was really about Dany and the type of ruler she is.  Missandei is basically saying that Dany is such a great and wonderful ruler that she didn't have to demand allegiance from anyone,  but that they chose to follow her and that if she asked,  she could leave voluntarily. Yet she's saying that to two guys that Dany is demanding allegiance from and won't allow to leave.  Its something that Davos and Jon should have pointed out

I am not sure after last night's horrendous episode we can expect logical continuity from the show writers going forward.  Shame.

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