Dothraki, actually that good on the open field?

[HelmHammerhand]

41 minutes ago, syrinx said:

My point is that horseback archery, which is supposed to be very effective, was completely useless in the show. The Dothraki just shot some arrows at a shield wall, and some arrows were shot back, the effectiveness was very similar. There was no purpose for that exchange in the dynamics of the battle, except looking cool.

Part of it is that the Dothraki used horseback archery in a very un-Mongol way.  The Mongol horse archers used to ride towards the enemy firing highly-arched shots (far-over any shield wall) attempting to pepper the shield-wall infantry and those massed behind them from a distance and from above.  They would fire repeatedly until they got within range of the enemy's archers, at which point they would wheel to the side and ride to the rear of their formation to avoid enemy fire.  This also allowed horseback archers behind them to continue shooting, providing a continuous barrage of arrows. This was supposed to weaken the enemy's formation so that the shield-wall or massed-infantry-with-spears was no longer as tightly packed and they could charge in for close combat.  

The Dothraki in this scene do the opposite, charging straight in, shooting straight in instead of arching their shots (which means that most of their arrows hit those darn efficient Lannister shields), and after firing 1 or 2 shots, continuing the charge into a still-fairly-organized formation of resistant troops.  

Anyhow, none of this bothered me since the Lannisters are way too overpowered in shoWesteros anyways.  

[Panther2000]

I loved this episode, it looked amazing.  Love the Winterfell storyline.   Araya returning home, the show finally saying that Yeah, Bran is DEAD.  This is no longer bran.   Little Finger getting his palms read( the look on his face when bran told him the time of day.)  Lets just say that I have never seen him look that scared ( even when Ned & Jon had him by the neck).

 

The Battle looks amazing.  It reminded me of the old Cowboy & Indians movies.  That Map painting back drop looked like the landscape of Montana.   Only thing missing was the Wagons weren't in a circle, lol

 

Great Episode, just freaking shor

[MoreOrLess]

4 hours ago, A bowl of brown said:

Always struck me as more hun-like than mongol. Whixh would make them about 800 years outdated militarily

The swords remind me of documentary's I'v seen of Trajan, more specifically those the Dacian's used against him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx

Generally though I'd say there more Mongol than anything else although obviously without generalship as strong as in the era of Genghis Khan. In terms of archery though we've never really see them in a situation where it would have be best for them to focus on it, as with the son of the harpies they caught there opponents with their pants down again.

[Corvinus85]

Some of this has been touched upon in thread and other threads, but I generally liked the battle, and I would say that the Dothraki should be good on the open field more than anywhere else. (like a siege for example)

Show Dothraki are different than book Dothraki in some aspects. For example, in the books they use bows way more than they do in the show, and not like we saw here, but with waves of horsemen moving around and peppering the enemy with arrows. 

Book Dothraki have zero respect for infantry. That's why, 400 years ago, at the battle of Qohor they charged at the Unsullied eighteen times, and lost the battle. I would like to believe that this is the main reason why the Dothraki charged the Lannister shield wall head on, and not just due to typical Hollywood tactics.

32 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

The swords remind me of documentary's I'v seen of Trajan, more specifically those the Dacian's used against him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx

Generally though I'd say there more Mongol than anything else although obviously without generalship as strong as in the era of Genghis Khan. In terms of archery though we've never really see them in a situation where it would have be best for them to focus on it, as with the son of the harpies they caught there opponents with their pants down again.

The falx is inverted, with the cutting edge being on the inside part of the blade, and it was two handed weapon for infantry. The show arakh looks more like the Egyptian khopesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh but with a wider curve. Even so, I've never liked the design of the show arakh. Yes, it's a deadly enough weapon, very effective at cutting, but if one looks closely as how the people in the show use it, especially when on horseback, they hold it very near the blade, because of the balance point. So effectively, they are reducing their reach with the weapon, which is not a good idea when you're on horseback. Book arakh was always meant to look close to a scimitar. 

Also GRRM's inspiration for the Dothraki involves a number of steppe/prairie cultures. I would say the Scythians are the primary influence, but GRRM acknowledged that even native American tribes were among the influences. That's why the Dothraki have little variety in their arsenal and they disdain armor.

[A bowl of brown]

Apparently the british museum recently put on a Scythian display comparing them to the dothraki.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/543705.html

[lomiller]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Also GRRM's inspiration for the Dothraki involves a number of steppe/prairie cultures. I would say the Scythians are the primary influence, but GRRM acknowledged that even native American tribes were among the influences. That's why the Dothraki have little variety in their arsenal and they disdain armor.

Culture yes, but it seems clear he means them to be effective militarily against typical Westerosi forces.  This means they should most resemble the Mongols in their military tactics in this type of battle, which would generally mean using their bows and mobility to much greater effect than the scene showed.  I expect that for the show, the scene should be done this way regardless of GRRM's intent for cinematic reasons. 

[Ser Lepus]

Unlike other people, it doesn't bother me that the dothraki charged head on instead of trying to flank the Lanninster troops, or peppering them with arrows; the Lannisters were caught by surprise, and weren't in formation when they first spot the dothraki; a charge is a good way to quickly end a way smaller army what is caught by surprise... Had the Lannister formed their shield wall a bit more slowly, they would have been crushed at first contact...

Shooting their arrows at the Lannisters wouldn't provoke enough casualties quickly enough; the Lannister soldiers all had full plate armor and big shields, so arrows wouldn't do much damage, and the soldiers would have more time to form the shield wall instead...

As for flanking them, the dothraki had such numerical advantage that they were in fact attacking both flanks and their front at the same time...

What DOES bother me, is the fact the dothraki are apparently unable to build lances... they just charge with those short sickle swords... Are they really that stupid? Or have they never fought an enemy who tries to stand its ground?

 

 

[Nic.]

Actually no.  Their lines were broken because of the dragon attack.  In the books Barristan mentions the Qohor Incident where 3000 unsullied held off a charge of 20,000 dothraki outside the walls of Qohor.  Killing 12,000 dothraki on their spears with their discipline.  While at the end only 600 unsullied remained, the Dothraki had lost 12,000 men including their leader and his sons.  At the end they leave the field of battle conceding defeat to the unsullied for their valor in battle.  Point of the story, if Drogon had not been there, it's possible the Dothraki would have won, but it's also likely that Dany would be left without an army as a result of battle.  In many cases it's reiterated that discipline beats out numbers. 

[Ser Lepus]

6 minutes ago, Nic. said:

Actually no.  Their lines were broken because of the dragon attack.  In the books Barristan mentions the Qohor Incident where 3000 unsullied held off a charge of 20,000 dothraki outside the walls of Qohor.  Killing 12,000 dothraki on their spears with their discipline.  While at the end only 600 unsullied remained, the Dothraki had lost 12,000 men including their leader and his sons.  At the end they leave the field of battle conceding defeat to the unsullied for their valor in battle.  Point of the story, if Drogon had not been there, it's possible the Dothraki would have won, but it's also likely that Dany would be left without an army as a result of battle.  In many cases it's reiterated that discipline beats out numbers. 

Yep, but the dothraki got very close undetected, the Lannisters weren't in formation, so a massive charge made sense. If the Lannisters had been a bit more slowly their shield wall would have been incomplete and the dothraki could have broken through without the help of dragons...

Yes, once they Lannisters raised their shield and spear wall, charging was a bad tactic, and had Dany and Drogon not been there, the dothraki should have pulled back... but as I said, the dothraki probably expected to reach them before they had time to form the shield wall...

[Samwell_Tarly]

Robert Baratheon, a man who effectively overthrew an entire dynasty said

''only a fool would meet the dothraki in an open field''

A man who had never seen them knew the reputation they had built. The Dothraki have many sucessful attributes, they are skilled archers from horse back, they are fast, they are savage. Most of all the they follow no code, they are barbaric. So Robert Baratheons words ring true.

Having Armour does give you advantages but does not make you invincible, if anything it slows you down and puts you in jeopardy. This can be seen when Bronn fights the KotV in Tyrions Trial.

To me they looked good, they fought well but unorganised to speak, there charge worked due to the surprise element. 

Give the Dothraki some lances, some organisation/planning and a little bit of light armour and they would be an unstoppable force.

 

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Robert Baratheon, a man who effectively overthrew an entire dynasty said

''only a fool would meet the dothraki in an open field''

Not to contradict, but I've seen a number of people mention this, and I can't remember when he said this. Definitely opposite from book Robert. 

23 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Having Armour does give you advantages but does not make you invincible, if anything it slows you down and puts you in jeopardy. This can be seen when Bronn fights the KotV in Tyrions Trial.

Opposite argument to this: Jorah kills Qotho precisely because of his armor.

[Fredwin]

The show has a history of making action scenes, especially battle scenes look comedic. It's fun to analyze what's on screen, but take it all with a grain of salt. 

The strength of the Lannister and Dothraki forces have no real connection to reality or the book. It's literally all based upon the whims of whatever some little fancy-lad screen writer types into his shiny MacBook.

[goomba]

22 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Opposite argument to this: Jorah kills Qotho precisely because of his armor.

Indeed! But Jorah is also a legend and a great fighter, and best living fighter from the North!

The average armoured knight would get destroyed by a Dothraki foot soldier unless they are around Jorah level,  

[Samwell_Tarly]

10 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Not to contradict, but I've seen a number of people mention this, and I can't remember when he said this. Definitely opposite from book Robert. 

Not sure what episode it is buts its where Robert is talking to Cersei about their marriage in season 1, he definitely says this.

"I do know this: If the Targaryen girl convinces her horselord husband to invade and the Dothraki horde crosses the Narrow Sea . . . we won't be able to stop them," he says. "Let's say Viserys Targaryen lands with 40,000 Dothraki screamers at his back. We hole up in our castles. A wise move. Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field."

His words also back the point how much Cersei has not headed her dead husbands advice.

"one army, a real army, united behind one leader with one purpose" is stronger than five.

 

10 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Opposite argument to this: Jorah kills Qotho precisely because of his armor.

I agree here somewhat, but Qotho had probably never fought a Westerosi Knight before, hence his lack of understanding of armour. This could soon be filtered out with a little bit of educating.

[Lord Varys]

In the books the Dothraki most likely will have both the numbers and the skills and maneuverability to make short work of any Westerosi army they might end up facing.

They are all mounted, and they are skilled mounted archers, and quite a few of them have dragonbone bows, the most powerful bows in Martinworld.

Most sizable armies in Westeros do not consist of a lot of trained and professional infantrymen. There are the professional men-at-arms and archers, but the core of each army are the armored lords and knights and their squires along with the freeriders.

Even if we ignore the losses the lordly and knightly classes have suffered and will continue to suffer during the battles to come there they don't exactly make up the bulk of each army.

I guess a well disciplined smaller army from the Stormlands (with the archers and mounted knights from there) or the Reach could deal them a major blow if they could mount a surprise attack on a Dothraki khalasar. But it is not that likely that they will get that chance, and the Dothraki will have the advantage of numbers.

Among the Dothraki pretty much any fighting man is mounted, and as we learn from the Qohor example they fight till death against impossible odds. They won't break and they won't retreat even if they lose. The same cannot even be remotely said about the average Westerosi fighters. They break and run or yield all the time.

And they should have enough men to be able to not mind it all that much even if they suffer a lot of losses. If Dany has all the Dothraki she should have hundreds of thousands of men to fight for her. Not just tens of thousands.

And we do know from the history of the fall of the Sarnori that they can mount sieges and bring cities down this way, too. They don't like that all that much, or grew to dislike it in the years since. But they can rediscover those skills easily enough. Dany's people won't be all Dothraki, after all.

In that sense, I think they shouldn't face all that much trouble taking this or that castle. They just would build siege engines and the like and take whatever castle or city they want in storm.

[snow is the man]

1 hour ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Robert Baratheon, a man who effectively overthrew an entire dynasty said

''only a fool would meet the dothraki in an open field''

A man who had never seen them knew the reputation they had built. The Dothraki have many sucessful attributes, they are skilled archers from horse back, they are fast, they are savage. Most of all the they follow no code, they are barbaric. So Robert Baratheons words ring true.

Having Armour does give you advantages but does not make you invincible, if anything it slows you down and puts you in jeopardy. This can be seen when Bronn fights the KotV in Tyrions Trial.

To me they looked good, they fought well but unorganised to speak, there charge worked due to the surprise element. 

Give the Dothraki some lances, some organisation/planning and a little bit of light armour and they would be an unstoppable force.

 

uh no. The dothraki weapons are useless against armor and most of the lannister soldiers wore armor. the only time a full on cavalry charge is a good idea against heavy infantry with spears and shield is when the heavy cavalry is well armored,very well disciplined,and in a good formation. The last time the dothraki fought in a real war was hundreds of years ago. All they do is raid and enslave people. They wear no armor so a few hundred archers could decimate them and a pike formation would destroy them. Since according to the books (and the show has given absolutely no reason for us to think otherwise) the dothraki think men of foot are fit only to be ridden down. So essentially it's full on cavalry charge with cavalry archers as well every time. If the lannisters and used pikes and shileds the dothraki would have been decimated with little damage to the lannisters.

I think the dothraki are way over estimated. They managed to catch the lannister army off guard (that made absoluetly no sense they should have at least had an outrider give them a few hours notice) and yet even with that,superior numbers,and the lannisters not having all their troops together if it hadn't been for the dragons the dothraki would have got most of their men killed even if they had won.  Individualy the dothraki are great warriors without a doubt.  Also there is a reason that people that could afford armor in the old days usually bought it. And despite what most people think the  armor in the midevil ages weighed less then what american soldiers wear now (all their equipment not just their kevlar and helmet). The idea that they needed cranes to get on their horses came from a play in the 1800's. At the height of plate armor  swords were rarely used against heavy armor but they used war hammers and such. Basically heavy armor was incredibly expensive but worth it and while it didn't make you invincible it made you alot harder to kill.

[snow is the man]

1 hour ago, goomba said:

Indeed! But Jorah is also a legend and a great fighter, and best living fighter from the North!

The average armoured knight would get destroyed by a Dothraki foot soldier unless they are around Jorah level,  

He is not the best living fighter in the north but he is good. The dothraki he was fighting was one of drogo's bloodriders not a rank and file soldier. So saying jorah was a great soldier and not pointing out that the dothraki he was fighting was too is a bit biased.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

10 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Personally I think the lannister infantry was amazing. They showed discipline and if dany's dragon hadn't opened up the line that the lannisters had and allowed the dothraki to charge right through and get behind the lannister soldiers I think the dothraki would have lost or won but been decimated in doing so essentially reducing dany's army to what little unsullied are left which by now is probably four thousand at most. The dothraki didn't have a good formation or work as a unit which is incredibly important in a battle and if the lannister forces hadn't been taken off guard (and been fighting a dragon) and been able to have heavy cavalry as well the dothraki would have been slaugthered.

Yep, you're right -- 1/2 of the Lannister/Tarley troops maintained their line even with Drogon blasting a fiery holocaust at them. You can see upon carefully watching that 1/2 the line was still there all the way to the end of the episode when it focuses on Bronn & Jaime.

The Dothraki seem pretty useless actually., unless one is speaking of raids on hapless peasants. Any Dothraki attacks on trained & equipped soldiers willing to obey commands would require massive odds in the Dothraki favor, 10;1, 20:1, etc. That's the giveaway.

[goomba]

He is not the best living fighter in the north but he is good. The dothraki he was fighting was one of drogo's bloodriders not a rank and file soldier. So saying jorah was a great soldier and not pointing out that the dothraki he was fighting was too is a bit biased.

Jorah has beaten the Dothraki bloodrider, he's also beaten a summer islander warrior, along with a Braavosi water dancer(although with luck), and a Myraneese champion!

And these are just his recent accomplishments along with many others he had previously(siege of Pyke and beating Jaime Lannister).

Let's see uh, Jon has killed the Halfhand(who wanted to die), got beat up by the Fookin Legend of Gin Ally till he was saved by Crasters daughter, and has beaten a whitewalker(an accomplishment shared by Samwell LOL)

Now i do believe Jon will surpass Jorah eventually, but right now based off of resume alone I think it's safe to say Jorah is indeed the best.

But yea you're right i was a little biased there! Jorah beat a really good opponent there.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/9/2017 at 8:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

snip

Well maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not.

But, I sure would like to see Mr. Dothraki “Your people can’t fight” guy say that shit to somebody like Brienne or Sandor.

Cause he might look awful funny trying to eat corn on the cobb with no fuckin’ teeth.