The Bastard of Summer

Origins of the dagger...Is it important?

90 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

It's been lots of talk about what will be done with it and by who. But what of its mysterious orgins?....

What we "know" as of the tv show

1 Littlefinger claimed the dagger was his. Said he lost it in a bet to Tyrion.

· How would Littlefinger come to posess such a dagger???? 

·I don't think it was ever his. Or ever in possession(contrary to others posts I've made) I think he saw an opportunity to manipulate. He took it. Not even Littlefinger would just give such a rare prize away in a bet.

·Tyrion supposedly in possession of the dagger after he won pervious mentioned bet, was leaving Winterfell at the time of the attempt on Brans life. Thus leading to Catlyen Tully accusing Tyrion of trying to murder Bran.

But we have zero motive for Tyrion wanting Bran dead.

2 We do know Bran saw Cersei and Jaime having incestious relations. He was pushed out a window by Jaime but didn't die. They too were leaving Winterfell.

There is motive here by either twin to want Bran dead. Jaime did push him out a window after all in effort to kill him and keep their secret. Could have been a collaboration of the two.

This would imply that the dagger came from Cersei or Jaime. But I'm willing to guess Cersei. 

But where would Cersei get such a dagger while at Winterfell? She's a Lannister. Tywin has been longing for a sweet piece of valyrian steel. He's offered obscene amouts of gold to poorer houses for theirs. If Jaime had given the assissin a blade it would not have been that one. He would have recognized valyrian steel. Something his father coveted. He would have kept it upon his discovery to give to his father. BUT if Cersei is indeed the culprit she would do such a foolish thing thinking herself smart. I'm betting she would not have recognized valyrian steel.....taking us back to my question: WHERE did Cersei steal such a blade? I'm guessing Robert.

Which brings me to the most important part of this post:

Where did Robert get this blade? Robert would have known Valyrian steel. His best friend carried a two-handed sword made of the same steel. Was it his own personal dagger? Or one of many. Robert comes from a noble house but yet they are not mentioned to have a family valyrian blade. I'm guessing it was just something he had collected. If it meant somthing to him he would indeed notice its absence.  Back to the question at hand....Where then did Robert aquire this dagger that so happened to be with his royal party as they were leaving Winterfell??? 

Let us speculate......

My guess would be being that it such a prize and so rare and was with Robert or his things it meant something to him. But he didn't use it regularly. It was a prize that was indeed a prize. I think Robert took it off Rhaegars corpse. As a memento. Why not keep a memento of your most hated and defeated foe? Everyone else went after Rhaegars rubies. Robert took his dagger.

But then the question arises where then did Rhaegar get this dagger? Yes Rhaegar was of royal lineage but their house valyrian swords are missing. The art of forging such steel lost with Valyria itself....This same dagger that has been seen in resticted books within the citidel. Rhaegar is part of very recent history. It being his originally  yet being in such an old restriced book is very very very intresting and doest match up. Which makes me ask who was the original owner?

Added to this I thought it odd that Bran asked Littlefinger if he knew who owned the dagger. As I've stated in other threads. Bran doesn't need to ask Littlefinger anything about the assissan or the person who hired the would be killer. He's seen all that. I felt like it was dialogue being opened up by Bran to Littlefinger as in "this is old and powerful. You like power. And you just let some slip through your hands. You didn't even know what you held all this time."

 

 

 

Edited by The Bastard of Summer

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1 hour ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

It's been lots of talk about what will be done with it and by who. But what of its mysterious orgins?....

What we "know" as of the tv show

1 Littlefinger claimed the dagger was his. Said he lost it in a bet to Tyrion.

· How would Littlefinger come to posess such a dagger???? 

·I don't think it was ever his. Or ever in possession(contrary to others posts I've made) I think he saw an opportunity to manipulate. He took it. Not even Littlefinger would just give such a rare prize away in a bet.

·Tyrion supposedly in possession of the dagger after he won pervious mentioned bet, was leaving Winterfell at the time of the attempt on Brans life. Thus leading to Catlyen Tully accusing Tyrion of trying to murder Bran.

But we have zero motive for Tyrion wanting Bran dead.

2 We do know Bran saw Cersei and Jaime having incestious relations. He was pushed out a window by Jaime but didn't die. They too were leaving Winterfell.

There is motive here by either twin to want Bran dead. Jaime did push him out a window after all in effort to kill him and keep their secret. Could have been a collaboration of the two.

This would imply that the dagger came from Cersei or Jaime. But I'm willing to guess Cersei. 

But where would Cersei get such a dagger while at Winterfell? She's a Lannister. Tywin has been longing for a sweet piece of valyrian steel. He's offered obscene amouts of gold to poorer houses for theirs. If Jaime had given the assissin a blade it would not have been that one. He would have recognized valyrian steel. Something his father coveted. He would have kept it upon his discovery to give to his father. BUT if Cersei is indeed the culprit she would do such a foolish thing thinking herself smart. I'm betting she would not have recognized valyrian steel.....taking us back to my question: WHERE did Cersei steal such a blade? I'm guessing Robert.

Which brings me to the most important part of this post:

Where did Robert get this blade? Robert would have known Valyrian steel. His best friend carried a two-handed sword made of the same steel. Was it his own personal dagger? Or one of many. Robert comes from a noble house but yet they are not mentioned to have a family valyrian blade. I'm guessing it was just something he had collected. If it meant somthing to him he would indeed notice its absence.  Back to the question at hand....Where then did Robert aquire this dagger that so happened to be with his royal party as they were leaving Winterfell??? 

Let us speculate......

My guess would be being that it such a prize and so rare and was with Robert or his things it meant something to him. But he didn't use it regularly. It was a prize that was indeed a prize. I think Robert took it off Rhaegars corpse. As a memento. Why not keep a memento of your most hated and defeated foe? Everyone else went after Rhaegars rubies. Robert took his dagger.

But then the question arises where then did Rhaegar get this dagger? Yes Rhaegar was of royal lineage but their house valyrian swords are missing. The art of forging such steel lost with Valyria itself....This same dagger that has been seen in resticted books within the citidel. Rhaegar is part of very recent history. It being his originally  yet being in such an old restriced book is very very very intresting and doest match up. Which makes me ask who was the original owner?

Added to this I thought it odd that Bran asked Littlefinger if he knew who owned the dagger. As I've stated in other threads. Bran doesn't need to ask Littlefinger anything about the assissan or the person who hired the would be killer. He's seen all that. I felt like it was dialogue being opened up by Bran to Littlefinger as in "this is old and powerful. You like power. And you just let some slip through your hands. You didn't even know what you held all this time."

 

 

 

My take on Bran's question is the way he asked it.....not "Who did this belong to?" but "Do you know who this belonged to?"

I think Bran was trying to tip LF with that question that he saw everything, Cat had asked LF that question.  LF was too dense to pick up on it, so Bran gave LF one of LF's own quotes.  This one was successful.

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Posted (edited)

I do not remember whether it was actually mentioned in the show, but the cutthroat with that dagger was sent by Joffrey... That much Tyrion deduced in the books. Joffrey took that dagger from Robert and he wanted to impress his drunken father, whom he heard telling that it would be only mercy to kill Bran and I presume Joffrey didn't like the slapping "lesson" from Tyrion as well. Where Robert get that blade that is a speculation...

Edited by Gala

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

My take on Bran's question is the way he asked it.....not "Who did this belong to?" but "Do you know who this belonged to?"

I think Bran was trying to tip LF with that question that he saw everything, Cat had asked LF that question.  LF was too dense to pick up on it, so Bran gave LF one of LF's own quotes.  This one was successful.

That was exactly the impression I got. LF just lied to his face and Bran stopped him with the quote.

Edited by Gala

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1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

My take on Bran's question is the way he asked it.....not "Who did this belong to?" but "Do you know who this belonged to?"

I think Bran was trying to tip LF with that question that he saw everything, Cat had asked LF that question.  LF was too dense to pick up on it, so Bran gave LF one of LF's own quotes.  This one was successful.

Okay but do you have thoughts on the daggers original  owner.....

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Book and show are in line on this topic, only that the books reveal a bit more.

1) Littlefinger owned the dagger (from whom he got it is unknown, in both, show and book).

2) Littlefinger lost the dagger in a bet to Robert Baratheon (during a tourney).

3) As said before, Joffrey stole it from Robert's travelling armory in Winterfell to hand it to a hired killer (revealed in book only).

4) Catelyn travelled down to Kings Landing after the failed attack on Bran and handed the dagger over to Ned Stark.

5) When Ned Stark opposed Cersei and Joffrey in the Throne Room (after Robert's death), Littlefinger surprised Ned by taking it from his belt and putting it to Ned's throat. From then on the dagger was back in Littlefinger's Hands.

By the way: The dagger is far too richly decorated in the Show, it is a plain dagger with dragonbone hilt. It's worth only revealed to a knowing eye being able to note the Valyrain stee bladel.The black dragonbone material of the hilt would probably remain unnoticed in its worth for even more people at first sight.

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1 hour ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Okay but do you have thoughts on the daggers original  owner.....

Nope, not a bookreader.

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I think that the dagger actually was Littlefinger's prior to the beginning of the story. He is wealthy man. He could simply buy it. I believe that it was mentioned somewhere (dunno where, though) that valyrian steel dagger are not as rare as swords. He could also stole it to have such a pretty little thing. Or he could blackmail someone to get it. I don't doubt that the dagger was truly his at some point.

When it comes to who sent the assassin to kill Bran, I think that it was LF as well. I know that in the books it is mentioned that it was Joffrey, as @Greywater-Watch and @Gala both mentioned, but it was never stated as a fact. Both Jaime and Tyrion only think so without actually having a since evidence to support their theory. The reason why Joffrey did it according to Tyrion is highly unconvincing to me. I am 99% sure that it was LF who sent the assassin. It was clearly his goal to create chaos - he made Lysa poison Jon Arryn, he intentionally lied about the dagger to cause tensions between House Stark and House Lannister. Joffrey deliberately going and hiring an assassin, which would later allow LF to pursue the chaos, is quite an improbable event. It fits LF's plan too well to be unlinked to him. Plus I think that the assassin saying to Cat that she was not supposed to be there is a hint that it was LF. Why would Joffrey care about a Catelyn if he wants to shamelessly kill the Hands' son? On the other hand, LF loved Catelyn. It makes sense that he wanted to protect her. At least I think so.

 

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6 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

When it comes to who sent the assassin to kill Bran, I think that it was LF as well

That theory is highly unlikely as noone could know, Bran would be in this pity state in bed after his fall. Only possibility: It was mere coincidence that the two attacks on Bran's life happened in such a short time, and that they were not linked at all.

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9 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I think that the dagger actually was Littlefinger's prior to the beginning of the story. He is wealthy man. He could simply buy it. I believe that it was mentioned somewhere (dunno where, though) that valyrian steel dagger are not as rare as swords. He could also stole it to have such a pretty little thing. Or he could blackmail someone to get it. I don't doubt that the dagger was truly his at some point.

When it comes to who sent the assassin to kill Bran, I think that it was LF as well. I know that in the books it is mentioned that it was Joffrey, as @Greywater-Watch and @Gala both mentioned, but it was never stated as a fact. Both Jaime and Tyrion only think so without actually having a since evidence to support their theory. The reason why Joffrey did it according to Tyrion is highly unconvincing to me. I am 99% sure that it was LF who sent the assassin. It was clearly his goal to create chaos - he made Lysa poison Jon Arryn, he intentionally lied about the dagger to cause tensions between House Stark and House Lannister. Joffrey deliberately going and hiring an assassin, which would later allow LF to pursue the chaos, is quite an improbable event. It fits LF's plan too well to be unlinked to him. Plus I think that the assassin saying to Cat that she was not supposed to be there is a hint that it was LF. Why would Joffrey care about a Catelyn if he wants to shamelessly kill the Hands' son? On the other hand, LF loved Catelyn. It makes sense that he wanted to protect her. At least I think so.

 

Did Tyrion thought Joffrey did that to please Robert? If yes then why do it without saying(if he was idiot enough to say it..).. It doesn't make much sense

 

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I think the dagger was Rhaegar's.

1 - The dagger has a ruby, and Rhaegar armour had rubis

2 - The dagger appears in the book about dragonglass and Dragonstone. Maybe it was a Targaryen heirloom

3 - Bran recognises the dagger. Of course he can know if from anywhere, but I think in this case he saw it while looking at important events, Rhaegar in this case because of Jon

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Camara said:

I think the dagger was Rhaegar's.

1 - The dagger has a ruby, and Rhaegar armour had rubis

2 - The dagger appears in the book about dragonglass and Dragonstone. Maybe it was a Targaryen heirloom

3 - Bran recognises the dagger. Of course he can know if from anywhere, but I think in this case he saw it while looking at important events, Rhaegar in this case because of Jon

Just an heirloom eh? Maybe. It's  just the fact that it was in that book seems like something  more to me.

Edited by The Bastard of Summer

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5 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

snip

I don't know how much we can muddle between the books and the show on this one but my understanding was always that it was part of Robert's arsenal that came with him on his progress to Winterfell. So it could very well have been a Targaryen blade originally.

My take on the whole assassination plot goes like this:

Before they even left KL, Littlefinger pulls Joffrey aside and tells him what a terrible thing it would be for Robert, Cersei, House Lannister and, well, everything if Ned were to become Hand. The only thing that would prevent Ned from taking the job is a major family tragedy, such as the death of one of the children. And, my my, isn't that a nice dagger your father has?

When Bran falls, it appears as if the problem has resolved itself. But when Bran survives and Ned decides to come south anyway, Joffrey nicks the dagger, passes it to the catspaw and tells him to back and finish the job.

So in this way, we have Littlefinger as the instigator of the whole thing, even though he knows nothing about Bran's fall or anything else happening at Winterfell, but the clumsy plan was all Joffrey.

And BTW, after the Bran plot failed, I also believe that Joffrey intended to kill Sansa on the Trident, or at least despoil her, in a last ditch effort to scotch Ned's appointment and undo the marriage contract. Too bad they came upon Arya and Mycah first.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Let us speculate......

My guess would be being that it such a prize and so rare and was with Robert or his things it meant something to him. But he didn't use it regularly. It was a prize that was indeed a prize. I think Robert took it off Rhaegars corpse. As a memento. Why not keep a memento of your most hated and defeated foe? Everyone else went after Rhaegars rubies. Robert took his dagger.

But then the question arises where then did Rhaegar get this dagger? Yes Rhaegar was of royal lineage but their house valyrian swords are missing. The art of forging such steel lost with Valyria itself....This same dagger that has been seen in resticted books within the citidel. Rhaegar is part of very recent history. It being his originally  yet being in such an old restriced book is very very very intresting and doest match up. Which makes me ask who was the original owner?

Added to this I thought it odd that Bran asked Littlefinger if he knew who owned the dagger. As I've stated in other threads. Bran doesn't need to ask Littlefinger anything about the assissan or the person who hired the would be killer. He's seen all that. I felt like it was dialogue being opened up by Bran to Littlefinger as in "this is old and powerful. You like power. And you just let some slip through your hands. You didn't even know what you held all this time."

Let us speculate...

Short answer: The dagger belonged to Aegon the Conqueror, to one of his sisters/wives, or to their bastard brother Orys.

Long answer:

The text on the book page with the drawing of the dagger states:

"The Valyrians were familiar with dragonglass long before they came to Westeros. They called it “zīrtys perzys” which translates to 'frozen fire' in Valyrian, and eastern texts tell of how their dragons would thaw the stone with dragonflame until it became molten and malleable. The Valyrians then used it to build their strange monuments and buildings without seams and joints of our modern crafters.

When Aegon the Conqueror forged his Seven Kingdoms, he and his descendants would often decorate their blades with dragonglass, feeling a kinship with the stone. The royal fashion for dragonglass ornamentation soon spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms to those wealthy enough to afford it. Hilts and pommels were and are the most common decoration, for dragonglass is too brittle to make a useful crossguard. Indeed, its very brittleness is what relegates it to the great houses and the most successful merchants."

So, the drawing there is to illustrate a blade that has dragonglass ornamentation. It's to note that the book is not talking about Valyrian steel, but of dragonglass, and how this "royal fashion for dragonglass ornamentation soon spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms" to those wealthy enough to afford it.  Being a natural material that can be mined,  it's logic that other wealthy people would want to copy this royal fashion and began to use dragonglass to decorate their own weapons. 

But we also know that this dagger is Valyrian steel, so it's valyrian steel AND dragonglass. And the method to forge Valyrian steel was long lost, hence this has to be an ancient blade (this is also suggested by the fact that the book Sam is reading looks old). And where is the dragonglass in this dagger? The text explains it: "hilts and pommels were and are the most common decoration" . So, my bet is on the hilt being dragonglass (my guess is that Ser Rodrik, not being so familiar with those materials,  mistakenly took dragonglass for dragonbone), and the blade valyrian steel. The embedded round gem does not look obsidian, it looks more like a ruby, and since rubies are associated with Rhaegar, your assumption that Robert took the dagger from Rhaegar in the Trident .after killing him fits very well, at least symbolically.

There's another possibility, which is that the dagger was in fact an ancestral House Baratheon's  blade, belonging to its founder Orys Baratheon, the general and alleged bastard brother of the conqueror trio

Edited by LucyMormont

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1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

When it comes to who sent the assassin to kill Bran, I think that it was LF as well. 

If the show reveals that LF sent the assassin then they clearly don't know what they're doing and got lucky when they answered Martin's "Who is Jon's mother?" question. 

It makes no narrative sense.  What were the assassin's instructions?  If one of the Stark children see Jamie and Cersie having sex, gets pushed out a window but survives... try to kill him, fail and get killed yourself".  

Thats the only way LF benefits By giving him an opportunity to implicate the Lannisters. 

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Dagger was Rhaegar's.  Robert took it from his corpse and held onto it for 17 years.  Joffrey stole it to please his father by putting Bran out of his misery.  That's my best guess.

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4 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

Let us speculate...

Short answer: The dagger belonged to Aegon the Conqueror, to one of his sisters/wives, or to their bastard brother Orys.

Long answer:

The text on the book page with the drawing of the dagger states:

"The Valyrians were familiar with dragonglass long before they came to Westeros. They called it “zīrtys perzys” which translates to 'frozen fire' in Valyrian, and eastern texts tell of how their dragons would thaw the stone with dragonflame until it became molten and malleable. The Valyrians then used it to build their strange monuments and buildings without seams and joints of our modern crafters.

When Aegon the Conqueror forged his Seven Kingdoms, he and his descendants would often decorate their blades with dragonglass, feeling a kinship with the stone. The royal fashion for dragonglass ornamentation soon spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms to those wealthy enough to afford it. Hilts and pommels were and are the most common decoration, for dragonglass is too brittle to make a useful crossguard. Indeed, its very brittleness is what relegates it to the great houses and the most successful merchants."

So, the drawing there is to illustrate a blade that has dragonglass ornamentation. It's to note that the book is not talking about Valyrian steel, but of dragonglass, and how this "royal fashion for dragonglass ornamentation soon spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms" to those wealthy enough to afford it.  Being a natural material that can be mined,  it's logic that other wealthy people would want to copy this royal fashion and began to use dragonglass to decorate their own weapons. 

But we also know that this dagger is Valyrian steel, so it's valyrian steel AND dragonglass. And the method to forge Valyrian steel was long lost, hence this has to be an ancient blade (this is also suggested by the fact that the book Sam is reading looks old). And where is the dragonglass in this dagger? The text explains it: "hilts and pommels were and are the most common decoration" . So, my bet is on the hilt being dragonglass (my guess is that Ser Rodrik, not being so familiar with those materials,  mistakenly took dragonglass for dragonbone), and the blade valyrian steel. The embedded round gem does not look obsidian, it looks more like a ruby, and since rubies are associated with Rhaegar, your assumption that Robert took the dagger from Rhaegar in the Trident .after killing him fits very well, at least symbolically.

There's another possibility, which is that the dagger was in fact an ancestral House Baratheon's  blade, belonging to its founder Orys Baratheon, the general and alleged bastard brother of the conqueror trio

I thought that a soo cool when I was able to read that passage off the screen on my  tablet!!! And i could accept if its nothing more than an ancient  dagger that belonged to Aegon that just so happens to be valyrian steel. Just kinda a nod to him and whatnot. 

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Posted (edited)

I think it would be awesome if the dagger was actually made from the fragments of "Dark Sister" the ancient Valyrian steel sword wielded by Visenya Targaryen - the elder of Aegon's two sister-wives.

Visenya is a heroine of Arya's as per discussions with Tywin in Season 2 and she was instrumental in helping Aegon conquer the Seven Kingdoms.

Edited by Gaz0680

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I believe the dagger is Rhaegar's and clearly is important beyond being able to kill wights and having been used to try to kill Bran. Maybe it contains evidence that Rhaegar married Lyanna, perhaps hidden in the fragile dragonglass hilt. Not sure how this would work, but the only living people who know of Jon's parentage are Bran (who nobody would believe) and Howland (who probably doesn't have proof they were married).

I mean, it's obviously possible that they were not married, but I think the story is far more interesting if they were.

Just my guess.

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slightly off topic but I found it interesting that LF had the dagger at all in this episode, I just re watched "The Lion and the Rose" season 1 where Ned is seen clearly packing the dagger into his box of belongings after his run in with Robert and he resigns, he is packing to leave and I don't think it is seen again. This would indicate that LF ransacked his belongings after his death and took the dagger for more of his future shenanigans.

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