The Bastard of Summer

Origins of the dagger...Is it important?

90 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Lady Woodland said:

slightly off topic but I found it interesting that LF had the dagger at all in this episode, I just re watched "The Lion and the Rose" season 1 where Ned is seen clearly packing the dagger into his box of belongings after his run in with Robert and he resigns, he is packing to leave and I don't think it is seen again. This would indicate that LF ransacked his belongings after his death and took the dagger for more of his future shenanigans.

Lol smarmy old Littlefinger.  He's  just so rotten.

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

That theory is highly unlikely as noone could know, Bran would be in this pity state in bed after his fall. Only possibility: It was mere coincidence that the two attacks on Bran's life happened in such a short time, and that they were not linked at all.

 

14 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

If the show reveals that LF sent the assassin then they clearly don't know what they're doing and got lucky when they answered Martin's "Who is Jon's mother?" question. 

It makes no narrative sense.  What were the assassin's instructions?  If one of the Stark children see Jamie and Cersie having sex, gets pushed out a window but survives... try to kill him, fail and get killed yourself".  

Thats the only way LF benefits By giving him an opportunity to implicate the Lannisters. 

Littlefinger is a schemer. His job is to know things. It's very unlikely that he would have no informator at all among all the people accompanying Robert to the North. This person then sent him the news. The dagger was probably among Robert's weapons, as Tyrion deduces. LF could inform his informator to take it and kill Bran and then leave the dagger behind. Don't forget that meanwhile he made Lysa send the message to Catelyn that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. The dagger would suggest that someone wealthy wanted to kill Bran and that this person wasn't at Winterfell for long. Which would hint the king's group. If an unknown person kills / hires an assassin to kill a Stark child (which was probably going to die anyway, no one really expected him to survive), it would clearly make the Stark act. Which it did. Catelyn went to King's Landing to find out something about the dagger which later provoked her to arrest Tyrion etc. Plus killing Bran would hint that his coma wasn't caused by an accident, that it was the first attempt to kill Bran (which it actually was but LF couldn't know this). And once again, this would point little finger to someone among Robert's group.

 

15 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Did Tyrion thought Joffrey did that to please Robert? If yes then why do it without saying(if he was idiot enough to say it..).. It doesn't make much sense

Yes. Tyrion or Jaime (I'm not sure which one tbh) remembered that Robert had said after Bran's fall that maybe it'd be better to kill him and end his suffering. Joffrey heard it and according to Tyrion or Jaime ordered the assassin to kill Bran to please his dad. But as you say, it makes zero sense that Joffrey would do it and be silent about it. It's this "reason" why Joffrey allegedly did it makes me suspicious about it. It's wierd.

 

3 hours ago, Lady Woodland said:

slightly off topic but I found it interesting that LF had the dagger at all in this episode, I just re watched "The Lion and the Rose" season 1 where Ned is seen clearly packing the dagger into his box of belongings after his run in with Robert and he resigns, he is packing to leave and I don't think it is seen again. This would indicate that LF ransacked his belongings after his death and took the dagger for more of his future shenanigans.

This is probably a mistake. Ned has the dagger while confronting Cersei. it is this dagger that Littlefinger takes and holds at Ned's neck. Maybe not in the show though. In the book, it definitely happened like this. Littlefinger then kept the dagger and Tyrion later comments on him having it in ACOK.

 

 

Edited by Nerevanin

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15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't know how much we can muddle between the books and the show on this one but my understanding was always that it was part of Robert's arsenal that came with him on his progress to Winterfell. So it could very well have been a Targaryen blade originally.

My take on the whole assassination plot goes like this:

Before they even left KL, Littlefinger pulls Joffrey aside and tells him what a terrible thing it would be for Robert, Cersei, House Lannister and, well, everything if Ned were to become Hand. The only thing that would prevent Ned from taking the job is a major family tragedy, such as the death of one of the children. And, my my, isn't that a nice dagger your father has?

When Bran falls, it appears as if the problem has resolved itself. But when Bran survives and Ned decides to come south anyway, Joffrey nicks the dagger, passes it to the catspaw and tells him to back and finish the job.

So in this way, we have Littlefinger as the instigator of the whole thing, even though he knows nothing about Bran's fall or anything else happening at Winterfell, but the clumsy plan was all Joffrey.

And BTW, after the Bran plot failed, I also believe that Joffrey intended to kill Sansa on the Trident, or at least despoil her, in a last ditch effort to scotch Ned's appointment and undo the marriage contract. Too bad they came upon Arya and Mycah first.

This is an interesting idea but I have two problems with it:

1. Joffrey is imo an unreliable ally, he has quick temper, it's probable that his tongue would slip. Littlefinger knew him well as they were both in King's Landing in Red Keep.

2. Littlefinger did what he could to cause tension between the Starks and the Lannisters. Bringing Ned south is a perfect opportunity for this, he can directly influence him. So trying to keep Ned in the North doesn't make much sense imo.

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Joffrey would have thrown it in Sansa's face that her brother's head could be up there on a pike alongside her father if the assassin had done his job.

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42 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Joffrey would have thrown it in Sansa's face that her brother's head could be up there on a pike alongside her father if the assassin had done his job.

That is actually a wonderful point. I never thought of that. But Joffrey showed strange reaction after Tyrion said "Possibly, a dagger! To match the sword" or was he just afraid and thought it was a threat from Tyrion?

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Given that Sam saw the dagger in his book, the dagger is obviously quite old. Don't know if we'll get a true origin via flashbacks, but i'd like to think it goes back at least to Aegon

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51 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Given that Sam saw the dagger in his book, the dagger is obviously quite old. Don't know if we'll get a true origin via flashbacks, but i'd like to think it goes back at least to Aegon

It's old by virtue of the fact it's Valyrian Steel.

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19 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

It's old by virtue of the fact it's Valyrian Steel.

The steel is old; that doesn't mean the dagger is. Remember that Tywin had Ice melted down to make Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

However, the fact that the picture is in Sam's book means that it definitely is at least fairly old. But do we know how old that book was?

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9 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

This is an interesting idea but I have two problems with it:

1. Joffrey is imo an unreliable ally, he has quick temper, it's probable that his tongue would slip. Littlefinger knew him well as they were both in King's Landing in Red Keep.

2. Littlefinger did what he could to cause tension between the Starks and the Lannisters. Bringing Ned south is a perfect opportunity for this, he can directly influence him. So trying to keep Ned in the North doesn't make much sense imo.

That's the beauty of it. It doesn't matter to Littlefinger if Joffrey succeeds or fails. He (Littlefinger) could care less whether a Stark child lives or  dies or whether Ned becomes Hand. All he needs is hostility between wolf and lion, so even a failed attempt is enough to get the ball rolling, as indeed it did. And as long as LF used subtle language to put the idea in Joffrey's head (and LF is a master at worldplay}, he can always claim innocence if Joffrey does spill the beans.

LF does not need Ned as Hand to cause chaos in the realm. He doesn't even need it to be strictly a wolf/lion thing; conflict between any of the major houses will do. And frankly, Jaime as Hand would probably do just as well because Jaime is hot-headed and utterly incapable of seeing anything but his sword as a solution to problems.

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13 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

 

Littlefinger is a schemer. His job is to know things. It's very unlikely that he would have no informator at all among all the people accompanying Robert to the North. This person then sent him the news. The dagger was probably among Robert's weapons, as Tyrion deduces. LF could inform his informator to take it and kill Bran and then leave the dagger behind. Don't forget that meanwhile he made Lysa send the message to Catelyn that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. The dagger would suggest that someone wealthy wanted to kill Bran and that this person wasn't at Winterfell for long. Which would hint the king's group. If an unknown person kills / hires an assassin to kill a Stark child (which was probably going to die anyway, no one really expected him to survive), it would clearly make the Stark act. Which it did. Catelyn went to King's Landing to find out something about the dagger which later provoked her to arrest Tyrion etc. Plus killing Bran would hint that his coma wasn't caused by an accident, that it was the first attempt to kill Bran (which it actually was but LF couldn't know this). And once again, this would point little finger to someone among Robert's group.

 

Yes. Tyrion or Jaime (I'm not sure which one tbh) remembered that Robert had said after Bran's fall that maybe it'd be better to kill him and end his suffering. Joffrey heard it and according to Tyrion or Jaime ordered the assassin to kill Bran to please his dad. But as you say, it makes zero sense that Joffrey would do it and be silent about it. It's this "reason" why Joffrey allegedly did it makes me suspicious about it. It's wierd.

 

This is probably a mistake. Ned has the dagger while confronting Cersei. it is this dagger that Littlefinger takes and holds at Ned's neck. Maybe not in the show though. In the book, it definitely happened like this. Littlefinger then kept the dagger and Tyrion later comments on him having it in ACOK.

 

 

Rose the whore was his informer for Winterfell for a long time. Rose speaks of the day Sansa was born and the bells rang all day and night. She left for kings landing shortly after when Robert departed. She works for littlefinger as soon as she gets to kings landing. 

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On 8/9/2017 at 4:07 PM, LucyMormont said:

Let us speculate...

Short answer: The dagger belonged to Aegon the Conqueror, to one of his sisters/wives, or to their bastard brother Orys.

Long answer:

The text on the book page with the drawing of the dagger states:

"The Valyrians were familiar with dragonglass long before they came to Westeros. They called it “zīrtys perzys” which translates to 'frozen fire' in Valyrian, and eastern texts tell of how their dragons would thaw the stone with dragonflame until it became molten and malleable. The Valyrians then used it to build their strange monuments and buildings without seams and joints of our modern crafters.

When Aegon the Conqueror forged his Seven Kingdoms, he and his descendants would often decorate their blades with dragonglass, feeling a kinship with the stone. The royal fashion for dragonglass ornamentation soon spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms to those wealthy enough to afford it. Hilts and pommels were and are the most common decoration, for dragonglass is too brittle to make a useful crossguard. Indeed, its very brittleness is what relegates it to the great houses and the most successful merchants."

So, the drawing there is to illustrate a blade that has dragonglass ornamentation. It's to note that the book is not talking about Valyrian steel, but of dragonglass, and how this "royal fashion for dragonglass ornamentation soon spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms" to those wealthy enough to afford it.  Being a natural material that can be mined,  it's logic that other wealthy people would want to copy this royal fashion and began to use dragonglass to decorate their own weapons. 

But we also know that this dagger is Valyrian steel, so it's valyrian steel AND dragonglass. And the method to forge Valyrian steel was long lost, hence this has to be an ancient blade (this is also suggested by the fact that the book Sam is reading looks old). And where is the dragonglass in this dagger? The text explains it: "hilts and pommels were and are the most common decoration" . So, my bet is on the hilt being dragonglass (my guess is that Ser Rodrik, not being so familiar with those materials,  mistakenly took dragonglass for dragonbone), and the blade valyrian steel. The embedded round gem does not look obsidian, it looks more like a ruby, and since rubies are associated with Rhaegar, your assumption that Robert took the dagger from Rhaegar in the Trident .after killing him fits very well, at least symbolically.

There's another possibility, which is that the dagger was in fact an ancestral House Baratheon's  blade, belonging to its founder Orys Baratheon, the general and alleged bastard brother of the conqueror trio

Thanks for sharing that. The dagger information was in the book that Sam was reading from clip on show? If so, that is pretty neat info to know. 

 

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Super Mario said:

Given that Sam saw the dagger in his book, the dagger is obviously quite old. Don't know if we'll get a true origin via flashbacks, but i'd like to think it goes back at least to Aegon

I agree. It goes back to Aegon I would say. I think it could have belonged to  Visenya. Look at this picture of Dark sister. They look  they same as in decorated. But is that just how all the targ  swords look? It could have been melted down or she had a dagger too.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Visenya_Targaryen

Edt. Ok They don't really look alike. Just the ruby. The dagger looks as it has a spike on the end of it. So I am stiil guessing at it.

Edited by Visenya the Dragon

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21 minutes ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

Thanks for sharing that. The dagger information was in the book that Sam was reading from clip on show? If so, that is pretty neat info to know. 

 

That's it, all I quoted was the text  that Sam is reading in the scene of the show.

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24 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

That's it, all I quoted was the text  that Sam is reading in the scene of the show.

Preey cool we get to read it. Thanks eagle eyes. 

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51 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

That's it, all I quoted was the text  that Sam is reading in the scene of the show.

Is that the same book where Sam tells Jon that he can find dragonglass on Dragonstone?

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I got to thinking and could this be the original blade(dagger)(They did not keep written history 8,0000 years ago) called "Ice"the first one before the newer one called Ice. And is actually lightbringer. Valriyan steel with frozen fire for hilt or pommel. Could it have been used to kill the Night king?  Considering I think it takes lightbringer to kill him. 

In Brans fash back with the weirwood. When the childern(leaf killed a man with dragonglass) and turned him into an other.(Night king) So maybe it takes a dagger of Valryian steel with the hilt or pommnel to kill the Night king. And that is how it got the name "Ice" after that. Considering they shatter like ice.

In an interview Gorege rr Martin says the actual term is Night kings. As  they(someone?)can make new Night kings.

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3 minutes ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

I got to thinking and could this be the original blade(dagger)(They did not keep written history 8,0000 years ago) called "Ice"the first one before the newer one called Ice. And is actually lightbringer. Valriyan steel with frozen fire for hilt or pommel. Could it have been used to kill the Night king?  Considering I think it takes lightbringer to kill him. 

In Brans fash back with the weirwood. When the childern(leaf killed a man with dragonglass) and turned him into an other.(Night king) So maybe it takes a dagger of Valryian steel with the hilt or pommnel to kill the Night king. And that is how it got the name "Ice" after that. Considering they shatter like ice.

In an interview Gorege rr Martin says the actual term is Night kings. As  they(someone?)can make new Night kings.

Yes I noticed in the cave with the drawings that the depiction of the Night King had a beard. The current one has no beard. I'm sure they don't shave (unless they aren't that savage of people lol) But seriously though no beard vs bearded drawing seems like this is not the original being the Children created.

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1 hour ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

Is that the same book where Sam tells Jon that he can find dragonglass on Dragonstone?

Yes... he is reading the book and talking to Gilly. First we can partially see a page with a drawing of dragonglass arrows points and a text that goes "More damning for the Children, though, was that even when their weapons found the weak joint in the armors or penetrated it outright, there were always more men waiting. In the great war that followed, many of the Children perished until the Pact that (broug)ht peace ..."

Then he turns the page and  it appears our now  famous dagger, with the first text I quoted. When he turns the page again, is when he found the map of Dragonstone with a drawing of a black triangle shape that represents the "mountain of dragonglass"

 

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6 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Yes... he is reading the book and talking to Gilly. First we can partially see a page with a drawing of dragonglass arrows points and a text that goes "More damning for the Children, though, was that even when their weapons found the weak joint in the armors or penetrated it outright, there were always more men waiting. In the great war that followed, many of the Children perished until the Pact that (broug)ht peace ..."

Then he turns the page and  it appears our now  famous dagger, with the first text I quoted. When he turns the page again, is when he found the map of Dragonstone with a drawing of a black triangle shape that represents the "mountain of dragonglass"

 

Thanks! Great to know.  So there were dragons once  and dragonglass that they childern had access to before they made the pact with men.

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9 hours ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

I got to thinking and could this be the original blade(dagger)(They did not keep written history 8,0000 years ago) called "Ice"the first one before the newer one called Ice. And is actually lightbringer. Valriyan steel with frozen fire for hilt or pommel. Could it have been used to kill the Night king?  Considering I think it takes lightbringer to kill him. 

In Brans fash back with the weirwood. When the childern(leaf killed a man with dragonglass) and turned him into an other.(Night king) So maybe it takes a dagger of Valryian steel with the hilt or pommnel to kill the Night king. And that is how it got the name "Ice" after that. Considering they shatter like ice.

In an interview Gorege rr Martin says the actual term is Night kings. As  they(someone?)can make new Night kings.

That's quite an intriguing theory. If absolutely nothing else, the way this dagger continually floats in and out of this story suggests it still has a major role to play and i dont think killing Littlefinger is it. To be clear, LF will likely die by that blade but I doubt that is the dagger's true purpose.

If the blade itself did come from the original Ice, and the dragonglass on the handle obviously comes from dragon fire, then we have a weapon truly born of Fire & Ice... yes, a very cool theory indeed.

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