The Bastard of Summer

Origins of the dagger...Is it important?

90 posts in this topic

On 8/9/2017 at 4:11 PM, Lurid Jester said:

If the show reveals that LF sent the assassin then they clearly don't know what they're doing and got lucky when they answered Martin's "Who is Jon's mother?" question. 

It makes no narrative sense.  What were the assassin's instructions?  If one of the Stark children see Jamie and Cersie having sex, gets pushed out a window but survives... try to kill him, fail and get killed yourself".  

Thats the only way LF benefits By giving him an opportunity to implicate the Lannisters. 

I am not sold on LF as the instigator, but it would make sense if LF instructed the assassin to leave the dagger after doing the deed.  

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On 10. 8. 2017 at 4:42 PM, Illiterati said:

Joffrey would have thrown it in Sansa's face that her brother's head could be up there on a pike alongside her father if the assassin had done his job.

Excellent point!!!

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

That's the beauty of it. It doesn't matter to Littlefinger if Joffrey succeeds or fails. He (Littlefinger) could care less whether a Stark child lives or  dies or whether Ned becomes Hand. All he needs is hostility between wolf and lion, so even a failed attempt is enough to get the ball rolling, as indeed it did. And as long as LF used subtle language to put the idea in Joffrey's head (and LF is a master at worldplay}, he can always claim innocence if Joffrey does spill the beans.

LF does not need Ned as Hand to cause chaos in the realm. He doesn't even need it to be strictly a wolf/lion thing; conflict between any of the major houses will do. And frankly, Jaime as Hand would probably do just as well because Jaime is hot-headed and utterly incapable of seeing anything but his sword as a solution to problems.

In fact he does because causing the war wasn't his only reason. He also wanted a revenge against House Stark for two reasons. First, Brandon Stark (Ned brother) humiliated him and nearly killed him when LF challenged him about Catelyn's hand and later he (LF) was expelled from Riverrun because of the duel. Second, Brandon later died, however another Stark married Catelyn. And of course another reason for the war could be Catelyn herself. Taking out Ned would be both a revenge and a way to make Catelyn free for marriage. Two birds killed with one stone.

14 hours ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

Rose the whore was his informer for Winterfell for a long time. Rose speaks of the day Sansa was born and the bells rang all day and night. She left for kings landing shortly after when Robert departed. She works for littlefinger as soon as she gets to kings landing. 

Could be, although Rose doesn't exist in the books. But as you pointed out, it is not unlikely that LF has a spy or an informator in the North all the time. In fact it would make sense because Winterfell is the place where his beloved Catelyn was all those years.

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Posted (edited)

Full Tinfoil - The dagger belonged to the Last Hero.  Nan tells Bran ...So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. 

The last hero found the children (CoTF) and as part of the Pact, his broken sword was turned into a dagger.  It was held within the Targaryen family for years and years, until Rhaegar wore it to the Battle of the Trident, and lost his life to Robert Baratheon.  Then ...what everybody else said about Joffrey , LF taking the blade, and so on.  

It would appear that the dagger waits for another hero. 

Edited by lakin1013

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7 hours ago, Super Mario said:

That's quite an intriguing theory. If absolutely nothing else, the way this dagger continually floats in and out of this story suggests it still has a major role to play and i dont think killing Littlefinger is it. To be clear, LF will likely die by that blade but I doubt that is the dagger's true purpose.

If the blade itself did come from the original Ice, and the dragonglass on the handle obviously comes from dragon fire, then we have a weapon truly born of Fire & Ice... yes, a very cool theory indeed.

Thanks. It has been bothering me about where this blade could have come from. So I got to thinking about all the valryian steel and which if any it could be. We know the orginal " Ice" was lost over time and no explanation about where it went. Thing is Aegon and Visenya their blades did not have dragonglass on it. I believe they were rubies. 

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16 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Yes I noticed in the cave with the drawings that the depiction of the Night King had a beard. The current one has no beard. I'm sure they don't shave (unless they aren't that savage of people lol) But seriously though no beard vs bearded drawing seems like this is not the original being the Children created.

It could be just the night's king army. The others all seem  to have beards but the night king. I  think you have to stab the night king in the heart with dragon steel with a dragonglass pommel that draws the magic from the night king back into the dragonglass. As the childern did with the dragonglass. 

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   With all due respect, I believe the wrong question is being asked here. What's important to know is to whom the dagger belonged to right before Bran was almost killed by it and why LF lied about it. LF made a bet against King Robert Baratheon. LF bet his Valyrian Steel Dagger that the Kingslayer Jaime would win a tourney and the King bet his luck on Loras Tyrell, who won. So Robert took the Dagger.

   LF, the same one who made Lysa Arryn poison and kill her husband Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, lied to Catelyn Stark, telling her that he set his favor with Jaime and that Tyrion Lannister bet against him and therefore won the Valyrian Steel Dagge from him. Besides that LF also made Lysa Arryn send a message to Catelyn Stark, her sister, in Winterfell in which she lies that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn.

   He did all that to instigate War and try to gain the most of it, in influence, power, and gold. As he told the Spider Chaos is a Ladder. 

   

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2 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   With all due respect, I believe the wrong question is being asked here. What's important to know is to whom the dagger belonged to right before Bran was almost killed by it and why LF lied about it. LF made a bet against King Robert Baratheon. LF bet his Valyrian Steel Dagger that the Kingslayer Jaime would win a tourney and the King bet his luck on Loras Tyrell, who won. So Robert took the Dagger.

   LF, the same one who made Lysa Arryn poison and kill her husband Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, lied to Catelyn Stark, telling her that he set his favor with Jaime and that Tyrion Lannister bet against him and therefore won the Valyrian Steel Dagge from him. Besides that LF also made Lysa Arryn send a message to Catelyn Stark, her sister, in Winterfell in which she lies that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn.

   He did all that to instigate War and try to gain the most of it, in influence, power, and gold. As he told the Spider Chaos is a Ladder. 

   

This is all book, yes?

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9 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

This is all book, yes?

Not that's in the tv show too..

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Did you discussed about the picture of this(or a similar) dagger in the book Sam/Gilly was reading?

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Just now, Styl7 said:

Not that's in the tv show too..

I have completely missed the part in the show where we saw, or were told, that Robert won the dagger from LF in a bet.  The lie LF told Cat, and the letter from Lysa, were both in the show.

 

I'll have to watch back the beginning.

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7 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I have completely missed the part in the show where we saw, or were told, that Robert won the dagger from LF in a bet.  The lie LF told Cat, and the letter from Lysa, were both in the show.

 

I'll have to watch back the beginning.

I think that in the show(I can't remember in the books) Littlefinger said that Tyrion won this dagger  from LF in a bet. And what didn't make sense is that according to Littlefinger Tyrion bet against his brother.. I am pretty sure that's what happened in the show..(didn't saw the detail with Robert before..)

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13 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

I think that in the show(I can't remember in the books) Littlefinger said that Tyrion won this dagger  from LF in a bet. And what didn't make sense is that according to Littlefinger Tyrion bet against his brother.. I am pretty sure that's what happened in the show..(didn't saw the detail with Robert before..)

Im pretty sure Baelish said the bet was between Tyrion and himself. Robert was never mentioned in the show.

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17 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Im pretty sure Baelish said the bet was between Tyrion and himself. Robert was never mentioned in the show.

I agree with you.. I don't remember about the books though..

 

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20 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Im pretty sure Baelish said the bet was between Tyrion and himself. Robert was never mentioned in the show.

No. The bet was not between LF and the Imp. LF lied to Catelyn saying that it was a bet between them to instigate House Stark against House Lannister. Catelyn had Tyrion arrested and Lord Tywin called his banners. Later on, the Imp tells Catelyn that he never bets against his family. The bet was between King Robert (wagered on Loras Tyrell) and LF (wagered on Jaime Lannister). LF lost and King Robert got the Valyrian Steel Dagger.

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10 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

No. The bet was not between LF and the Imp. LF lied to Catelyn saying that it was a bet between them to instigate House Stark against House Lannister. Catelyn had Tyrion arrested and Lord Tywin called his banners. Later on, the Imp tells Catelyn that he never bets against his family. The bet was between King Robert (wagered on Loras Tyrell) and LF (wagered on Jaime Lannister). LF lost and King Robert got the Valyrian Steel Dagger.

I didnt  say it was. I said BAELISH SAID the bet was between the two of them. THEN I went on to say Robert wasn't  mentioned. In the conversation between  Baelish and Catelyn Tully, Robert was not part of it.

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1 hour ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   With all due respect, I believe the wrong question is being asked here. What's important to know is to whom the dagger belonged to right before Bran was almost killed by it and why LF lied about it. LF made a bet against King Robert Baratheon. LF bet his Valyrian Steel Dagger that the Kingslayer Jaime would win a tourney and the King bet his luck on Loras Tyrell, who won. So Robert took the Dagger.

   LF, the same one who made Lysa Arryn poison and kill her husband Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, lied to Catelyn Stark, telling her that he set his favor with Jaime and that Tyrion Lannister bet against him and therefore won the Valyrian Steel Dagge from him. Besides that LF also made Lysa Arryn send a message to Catelyn Stark, her sister, in Winterfell in which she lies that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn.

   He did all that to instigate War and try to gain the most of it, in influence, power, and gold. As he told the Spider Chaos is a Ladder. 

   

And with all due respect I am asking the right questions. Why because  it's  what I  am intrested in. The first part not bolded was just background.  The second bolded part is the bulk of my concern and where I speculate 

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On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:15 AM, The Bastard of Summer said:

Just an heirloom eh? Maybe. It's  just the fact that it was in that book seems like something  more to me.

I agree with you. I believe it was Rhaegars. I think it may be the weapon to kill the Night King.

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4 hours ago, princess_snow said:

I agree with you. I believe it was Rhaegars. I think it may be the weapon to kill the Night King.

The dagger can kill white walker because its Valyrian Steel.. its known.

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22 hours ago, Super Mario said:

That's quite an intriguing theory. If absolutely nothing else, the way this dagger continually floats in and out of this story suggests it still has a major role to play and i dont think killing Littlefinger is it. To be clear, LF will likely die by that blade but I doubt that is the dagger's true purpose.

If the blade itself did come from the original Ice, and the dragonglass on the handle obviously comes from dragon fire, then we have a weapon truly born of Fire & Ice... yes, a very cool theory indeed.

Yep that is definitely the same dagger... what is LF up to with it and does he know it's importance!!!??? 

I agree Arya will kill him with it at Sansa's request...

Like the theory Super Mario that it really is fire and ice. Very cool

 

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I'm beginning to think that people are chasing their tails with trying to guess the origins of the dagger. 

While the dagger being shown in Sam's book is curious, I think Bran's question to LF was less about who the original owner was and more about the fact that Cat asked that very same question in season 1. 

Cat 103:  "Do you know whose dagger this is?"

Bran 704:  "Do you know who this belonged to?"

LF's answer to Bran was a lot of nonsense up until he says the word chaos.  Bran's "Chaos is a ladder" reply was clearly his way of saying "the world was in chaos because YOU put it there!  All because of the lie you told my mother!"

I know that the show hasn't revealed who sent the catspaw to kill Bran, but it has provided enough information so that we know that It wasn't Tyrion and that LF lied.  Personally I don't think Bran really cares who sent him (I'm sure he knows) since he's less Bran now.  

What he probably cares about is that LF lied to his mother.  That lie was the spark that set the 7K ablaze.  

Again, I don't think the origin of the dagger matters.  I think the dagger simply represents the tipping point where everything went to sh/t. Ultimately I think the dagger will be used to kill LF.  After that it will just be a dagger again, though obviously a useful dagger for the coming conflict but still just a dagger.

Maybe.

 

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