The Bastard of Summer

Origins of the dagger...Is it important?

90 posts in this topic

On 8/9/2017 at 4:11 PM, Lurid Jester said:

If the show reveals that LF sent the assassin then they clearly don't know what they're doing and got lucky when they answered Martin's "Who is Jon's mother?" question. 

It makes no narrative sense.  What were the assassin's instructions?  If one of the Stark children see Jamie and Cersie having sex, gets pushed out a window but survives... try to kill him, fail and get killed yourself".  

Thats the only way LF benefits By giving him an opportunity to implicate the Lannisters. 

Please don't trash talk the producers, they know the plot and you do not. Oh and it is not at all clear that D&D got the answer right, only that they impressed GRRM with their knowledge of the books.

The books make it clear that Joffrey stole the dagger from Robert's armory and gave it to the assassin. There is no mention of Littlefinger in the plot until Catlyn gives him the dagger and he lies about it belonging to Tyrion. Bran is letting Littlefinger know that he knows what he did to start the war of five kings. 

The reason D&D had to establish that Bran was weird before this reveal is that otherwise it would seem really out of character for him to know this and not tell. And the reason is that he has much bigger concerns than justice for the man who murdered his father and caused the death of his brother and mother.

As for the dagger, the rubies could have been added by Rheagar, yes. Or maybe the armor was made to match the dagger because it is special in some way. That seems more likely as the book was likely written before Rheagar was born.

It is quite likely that the show will give us less of the backstory than we would like. So this might well be an area where folk will end up reading the books and say, oh that is what the dagger was about.

 

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Posted (edited)

Likely Aegon's dagger originally.

Which got passed down to every heir to the Iron Throne, which is why it ends up being Rhaegar's dagger.

How it ended up in Littlefinger's hands could be a fun story, but it's not really important. Robert could have taken it off Rhaegar at the Trident, then given it to Littlefinger, then won on it back years later at the tourney.

Cersei stole it after Bran caught her and Jamie in the tower and didn't die after Jamie pushed him, and hired the catspaw.

That's it. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. 

Unless Joffrey knows what happened in the tower, there's no reason to hire an assassin to kill Bran who is already in a coma. 

Seriously. How  would stealing his dagger and hiring an assassin to kill Bran Stark, impress Robert, who also doesn't know what happened in the tower? Joffrey doesn't know Jamie is his father. He has no idea Jamie is sleeping with his mother, nor than Bran caught them, nor that Bran didn't fall, but was pushed.

Joffrey has zero reason to hire an assassin to kill Bran.

I've never thought this made any sense, beyond setting more up for Jamie & Tyrion to turn against Cersei later on in the story when they find out it was her.

Quote

The books make it clear that Joffrey stole the dagger from Robert's armory and gave it to the assassin.

They don't really. It's all just Jamie and Tyrion speculating, and Cersei pretending to join in.

It makes even less sense for Littlefinger to have sent the assassin. The only people who know what happened by the time the catspaw shows up are still only Jamie and Cersei, and neither one of them would tell anyone, especially Littlefinger, even by raven. Petyr would have to remotely hire someone and steal Robert's dagger, while thousands of miles away in King's Landing.

 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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22 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Likely Aegon's dagger originally.

Which got passed down to every heir to the Iron Throne, which is why it ends up being Rhaegar's dagger.

How it ended up in Littlefinger's hands could be a fun story, but it's not really important. Robert could have taken it off Rhaegar at the Trident, then given it to Littlefinger, then won on it back years later at the tourney.

Cersei stole it after Bran caught her and Jamie in the tower and didn't die after Jamie pushed him, and hired the catspaw.

That's it. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. 

Unless Joffrey knows what happened in the tower, there's no reason to hire an assassin to kill Bran who is already in a coma. 

Seriously. How  would stealing his dagger and hiring an assassin to kill Bran Stark, impress Robert, who also doesn't know what happened in the tower? Joffrey doesn't know Jamie is his father. He has no idea Jamie is sleeping with his mother, nor than Bran caught them, nor that Bran didn't fall, but was pushed.

Joffrey has zero reason to hire an assassin to kill Bran.

I've never thought this made any sense, beyond setting more up for Jamie & Tyrion to turn against Cersei later on in the story when they find out it was her.

They don't really. It's all just Jamie and Tyrion speculating, and Cersei pretending to join in.

It makes even less sense for Littlefinger to have sent the assassin. The only people who know what happened by the time the catspaw shows up are still only Jamie and Cersei, and neither one of them would tell anyone, especially Littlefinger, even by raven. Petyr would have to remotely hire someone and steal Robert's dagger, while thousands of miles away in King's Landing.

 

Is Cersei or Jaime idiots enough to give a valyrian steel dagger to a common assassin?

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2 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

Is Cersei or Jaime idiots enough to give a valyrian steel dagger to a common assassin?

Someone obviously is, and my money would be on Cersei... because that's her M.O. She only thinks one step ahead. 

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Maybe there's more to the story of the dagger. Because there is a baby we assume that the blood on Lyanna was due to giving birth. She could have been stabbed with the dagger, which thus ends up killer's possession, later to Littlefinger somehow. Littlefinger knows who did this.

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Posted (edited)

38 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Maybe there's more to the story of the dagger. Because there is a baby we assume that the blood on Lyanna was due to giving birth. She could have been stabbed with the dagger, which thus ends up killer's possession, later to Littlefinger somehow. Littlefinger knows who did this.

She had a raging fever. Fever comes from an infection. Likely sepsis occurring after childbirth.

If she was stabbed.. there would be no time for a fever to develop before she bled out.

Either Ned or Howland Reed would then have the dagger.... how would Littlefinger get it from either of them? 

 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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4 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

She had a raging fever. Fever comes from an infection. Likely sepsis occurring after childbirth.

If she was stabbed.. there would be no time for a fever to develop before she bled out.

Either Ned or Howland Reed would then have the dagger.... how would Littlefinger get it from either of them? 

 

I thought the killer might have taken the dagger. But it doesn't really fit now, the baby would be dead too. It's just my mind jumping to other conclusions, because the birth was not shown. She did scream though, was she still in labor when the men were outside? Didn't know it was a fever, thought she was in pain.

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2 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Someone obviously is, and my money would be on Cersei... because that's her M.O. She only thinks one step ahead. 

I initially thought it was cersei too. But what I find hard to believe is Cersei (or even Joffrey) finding an assassin so far away from home. I find it unlikely she would be able to carry this out on her own.

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5 hours ago, hallam said:

Please don't trash talk the producers, they know the plot and you do not.

Lol, that qualifies as trash talking?  Criticize, yes. Trash talk, no.  

While I appreciate your suggestion, unless my posts violate some forum rule I'll continue to express my opinion as I have up to this point. 

Thank you for your concern. 

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17 hours ago, Styl7 said:

The dagger can kill white walker because its Valyrian Steel.. its known.

Lol, not sure if you are joking around here.... I know it can kill White Walkers. I don't think it will be as easy to kill the Night King though.

It feels like they are setting it up for something bigger maybe.

I mean I think it will be used to kill LF. However, I felt the way Bran asked LF do you know whose dagger this is or however he phrased it, was more about the fact Bran does indeed know. As someone mentioned in this thread it could also be a nod to Cat asking but how many viewers would remember that it was back in S1 ?  

 

 

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1 minute ago, princess_snow said:

Lol, not sure if you are joking around here.... I know it can kill White Walkers. I don't think it will be as easy to kill the Night King though.

It feels like they are setting it up for something bigger maybe.

I mean I think it will be used to kill LF. However, I felt the way Bran asked LF do you know whose dagger this is or however he phrased it, was more about the fact Bran does indeed know. As someone mentioned in this thread it could also be a nod to Cat asking but how many viewers would remember that it was back in S1 ?  

Only more devoted fans, like us here on forum. Casual fans wouldnt remember or be stringing clues together.

I agree Bran already knows whose dagger it was. He was testing LF.

I think the dagger has a high chance of being the weapon to end the Night King or at very least part of the plan that results in his defeat.

Because the show has created the Night King, a character that doesn't exist in the books, it has given a central focus to the threat of the WW but also it extremely likely to result in the defeat of them being very Hollywood-like. Ie the Night King gets killed and the other WW all explode, which means they have to make him far far more difficult to kill than other white walkers. Just stabbing or slicing him with a valyrian steel blade wont be enough.

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10 minutes ago, princess_snow said:

As someone mentioned in this thread it could also be a nod to Cat asking but how many viewers would remember that it was back in S1 ?  

D&D have already shown a tendency for deep cuts back to season one in the form of Arya's reunion with Nymeria.  Those call backs aren't necessarily for the average viewer but probably targeted toward the superfans. :)

Theyve also made some interesting references to book details that aren't even part of the show. 

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10 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Only more devoted fans, like us here on forum. Casual fans wouldnt remember or be stringing clues together.

I agree Bran already knows whose dagger it was. He was testing LF.

I think the dagger has a high chance of being the weapon to end the Night King or at very least part of the plan that results in his defeat.

Because the show has created the Night King, a character that doesn't exist in the books, it has given a central focus to the threat of the WW but also it extremely likely to result in the defeat of them being very Hollywood-like. Ie the Night King gets killed and the other WW all explode, which means they have to make him far far more difficult to kill than other white walkers. Just stabbing or slicing him with a valyrian steel blade wont be enough.

Yeah I can see that happening. I do like the idea it belonged to Rhaegar too, that would be pretty cool.

 

11 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

D&D have already shown a tendency for deep cuts back to season one in the form of Arya's reunion with Nymeria.  Those call backs aren't necessarily for the average viewer but probably targeted toward the superfans. :)

Theyve also made some interesting references to book details that aren't even part of the show. 

Yeah, I picked up on Arya callbacks, but I had actually forgotten the Cat one. I sometimes get show and books mixed up too. 

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5 minutes ago, princess_snow said:

Yeah, I picked up on Arya callbacks, but I had actually forgotten the Cat one. I sometimes get show and books mixed up too. 

The main reason I'm catching some of them is that between new episodes I've been rewatching from the beginning again. 

I do this with every new season.  Lol. 

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2 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

The main reason I'm catching some of them is that between new episodes I've been rewatching from the beginning again. 

I do this with every new season.  Lol. 

I usually do too. Havent this year, have too many other shows I'm catching up on etc. I am well overdue to re read the books too.  

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6 minutes ago, princess_snow said:

I usually do too. Havent this year, have too many other shows I'm catching up on etc. I am well overdue to re read the books too.  

Doing that too.  At this point I have so much bleed over from book to show to book that I can't count how many times I've pulled a "are you sure that wasn't in the show?"

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When Bran gives the dagger to Arya and says he won't need it, is it because it's not his job to kill anyone? He doesn't have to kill to defense himself or he has other ways to finish off someone or he's one with the WW? He is worried that he won't learn what he has to learn in time. He also says that the things he sees are still as pieces in his mind. Is he not sure yet what part the dagger will play when he hands it to Arya?

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On 11-8-2017 at 5:19 PM, lakin1013 said:

Full Tinfoil - The dagger belonged to the Last Hero.  Nan tells Bran ...So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. 

The last hero found the children (CoTF) and as part of the Pact, his broken sword was turned into a dagger.  It was held within the Targaryen family for years and years, until Rhaegar wore it to the Battle of the Trident, and lost his life to Robert Baratheon.  Then ...what everybody else said about Joffrey , LF taking the blade, and so on.  

It would appear that the dagger waits for another hero. 

I like this

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On 8/12/2017 at 2:22 PM, Apoplexy said:

I initially thought it was cersei too. But what I find hard to believe is Cersei (or even Joffrey) finding an assassin so far away from home. I find it unlikely she would be able to carry this out on her own.

Cersei has gold. And a reason to want Bran dead.

Joffrey doesn't know anyone wants Bran dead, because he has no idea what happened, and thinks Jamie is his Uncle.

 

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On 8/12/2017 at 9:51 AM, Lurid Jester said:

LF's answer to Bran was a lot of nonsense up until he says the word chaos.  Bran's "Chaos is a ladder" reply was clearly his way of saying "the world was in chaos because YOU put it there!  All because of the lie you told my mother!"

'Chaos is a ladder' is actually a Littlefinger quote from one of the early seasons. Thats why LF looked so spooked, there's no way Bran could have known that without his 3 Eyed Raven super powers

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