The Bastard of Summer

Origins of the dagger...Is it important?

90 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

'Chaos is a ladder' is actually a Littlefinger quote from one of the early seasons. Thats why LF looked so spooked, there's no way Bran could have known that without his 3 Eyed Raven super powers

Right, he was quoting a line LF said to Varys. Bran was just using LF's own words in order to get his attention.  

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:55 AM, Nerevanin said:

In fact he does because causing the war wasn't his only reason. He also wanted a revenge against House Stark for two reasons. First, Brandon Stark (Ned brother) humiliated him and nearly killed him when LF challenged him about Catelyn's hand and later he (LF) was expelled from Riverrun because of the duel. Second, Brandon later died, however another Stark married Catelyn. And of course another reason for the war could be Catelyn herself. Taking out Ned would be both a revenge and a way to make Catelyn free for marriage. Two birds killed with one stone.

Regardless of whether the assassination attempt succeeds or fails, it will lead to enmity between Stark and Lannister. Sure, he has no reason to love Starks, Tullys or Lannisters, but that still doesn't mean he needs war between any of them to pursue his goals. All he really needs is chaos: Lann vs. Stark, Lann vs. Tully and Stark, Lann vs. Tyrell, Tyrell vs. Stark, Dorne vs. everyone ... as long as the king's peace is broken Littlefinger benefits.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I go back to the beginning.

When Jon Arryn figured out the incest, he was probably going to tell Robert, who would have had Cersei (and possibly the kids) killed. There would have been some political fallout with the Lannisters, but Tywin would not have gone to war over it. And Robert's oldest bastard might end up as king, which would probably be a short reign with way too many lords trying to take the throne afterward.

By having Lysa poison Jon, he prompted Robert to request Ned to be his Hand. By having her blame the Lannisters in a raven to Cat, Ned felt compelled to go to King's Landing and investigate, rather than politely decline. Littlefinger also probably predicted that Ned would go to Cersei instead of Robert to help her save herself and the kids, since the slaughter of the Targaryen children is what drove a wedge between Robert and Ned for so long. This put targets on Ned and Robert and was why both of them were ultimately killed.

Blaming the assassination attempt on Tyrion was clearly a lie, which begs the question of why he would do it? Well, he already framed the Lannisters with the above plot, so why not push Cat's impulsive hand to make a move and endanger Ned. Hence, the War of the Five Kings. Five kings all whacking at each other until the last one standing has very little strength remaining and will be pliable to Littlefinger's postwar influences and machinations, which will be required since he assisted the kingdom in becoming heavily indebted to the Lannisters and Iron Bank. And all the while, he supported Joffrey as king, because Joffrey was the worst thing that could happen to the Lannister and Baratheon houses. Until, of course, it was time to poison Joffrey and further destabilize the seat of power, at which time he furthered his plays for the Riverlands and the North.

And now Littlefinger presents the dagger to Bran, who quotes his summation of chaos. Why? I believe that Bran's letting him know that he's well aware that the assassination attempt was when Littlefinger set all that chaos into motion in his bid for the throne.

Or not. I don't know. I think it's reasonable for Littlefinger to be unnerved when Bran suddenly regurgitates any private statement he made, but to use those specific words as they sit with the dagger and its mystery between them indicates the above to me.

Edited by The Mediocre Other

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13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Regardless of whether the assassination attempt succeeds or fails, it will lead to enmity between Stark and Lannister. Sure, he has no reason to love Starks, Tullys or Lannisters, but that still doesn't mean he needs war between any of them to pursue his goals. All he really needs is chaos: Lann vs. Stark, Lann vs. Tully and Stark, Lann vs. Tyrell, Tyrell vs. Stark, Dorne vs. everyone ... as long as the king's peace is broken Littlefinger benefits.

Well, that's definitely true. I just wanted to point out that creating choas wasn't probably his only goal (although probably the one with the highest priority) and that even though any major houses discontent would do, he started to pit the Lannisters and the Starks against each other, so he probably had a reason to do it, to pull House Stark into the politics, although they don't usually engage in it. But, yes, overall I agree with what you said. :) 

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I agree with people who cites both the books as well as the show. I agree that the catspaw was likely sent by Joffrey. Joffrey was sadistic by nature, but it doesn't explain how Littlefinger got it in the first place. Littlefinger, despite his lies about who he bet against, he still lost it to Robert in a bet. So how did he get it, I'll post my theory on this later. I do believe Rhaegar may have own it, whose it was before that probably Aegon the Conqueror definitely House Targaryen

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On 09/08/2017 at 4:30 PM, Illiterati said:

My take on Bran's question is the way he asked it.....not "Who did this belong to?" but "Do you know who this belonged to?"

I think Bran was trying to tip LF with that question that he saw everything, Cat had asked LF that question.  LF was too dense to pick up on it, so Bran gave LF one of LF's own quotes.  This one was successful.

I think the line "Chaos is a Ladder" is the one Bran used to tip LF not that question ...

Back in season 3 Episode 6, LF was talking with Lord Varys in the Throne's room...

This is the scrypt .

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: The realm. Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie.

Lord Varys: But what do we have left, once we abandon the lie? Chaos? A gaping pit waiting to swallow us all.

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

So When Bran said that, LF changed his facial expression... That is the phrase used by Bran to tip LF not the question... 

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On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 5:22 AM, Nerevanin said:

Well, that's definitely true. I just wanted to point out that creating choas wasn't probably his only goal (although probably the one with the highest priority) and that even though any major houses discontent would do, he started to pit the Lannisters and the Starks against each other, so he probably had a reason to do it, to pull House Stark into the politics, although they don't usually engage in it. But, yes, overall I agree with what you said. :) 

I think he ended up pitting Stark v. Lann only because Ned took the job as Hand. If Ned had remained in the north, then Jaime would have been Hand and LF's political calculus would have shifted. He is very flexible that way.

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On 8/21/2017 at 8:25 AM, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

I think the line "Chaos is a Ladder" is the one Bran used to tip LF not that question ...

Back in season 3 Episode 6, LF was talking with Lord Varys in the Throne's room...

This is the scrypt .

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: The realm. Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie.

Lord Varys: But what do we have left, once we abandon the lie? Chaos? A gaping pit waiting to swallow us all.

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

So When Bran said that, LF changed his facial expression... That is the phrase used by Bran to tip LF not the question... 

I think the question was meant to do the same thing, but LF didn't catch on....

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19 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I think the question was meant to do the same thing, but LF didn't catch on....

No that's another thing...

It is a question we should all ask ourselves... Some of us might assume it's LF's... But who knows? It was in fact a real question and an important one... Maybe not that important... Maybe the showrunners are just trying to lead us to a an empty pit...And wait for our neurons to burn our heads... Or it could also be an important question... If you were Bran, wouldn't you use "Chaos is a Ladder" than that question? Because that question could have been asked by many people, not only Cat...; I don't see why it would mean anything... And when Cat discussed about that with LF, they weren't alone they were with Varys and Ned in the Brothel.  But "Chaos is a ladder" is very specific scene... a specific sentence he said to Varys....  And the way Bran looked at him when he said that... But When he asked that question he wasn't even looking at LF....  

Based on both of their looks, I went for "Chaos is a ladder" rather than the question... 

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On 13/08/2017 at 1:43 PM, Deminelle said:

When Bran gives the dagger to Arya and says he won't need it, is it because it's not his job to kill anyone? He doesn't have to kill to defense himself or he has other ways to finish off someone or he's one with the WW? He is worried that he won't learn what he has to learn in time. He also says that the things he sees are still as pieces in his mind. Is he not sure yet what part the dagger will play when he hands it to Arya?

What about this?

LF said that he lost that Dagger to Tyrion Lannister. We all know he lied... I think it was all the way around.... I'm not saying that Tyrion lost it to LF but that Tyrion (dwarf) might have given it to someone who could use it . We all know Tyrion said that he has compassion for cripples, bastard and broken things...? Remember Tyrion compared himself to Jon a bastard. SO maybe that scene means many things... One that Tyrion gave it to someone else because that Dagger on a dwarf is a waste... Just like Bran did. It could also mean that Bran is giving an opportunity to erase an ennemy... Don't know, really....

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