Lost Melnibonean

The Three Heads of Rhaegar's Dragon

76 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I like the idea of a Silent Sisters spy network. They'd make great little birds. For the septas, maybe there will be something in TWOW about Tyene's infiltration of the Faith that will give you some evidence.

Silent Sisters spy network? So Bene Geserit :)

The Maesters have strong "mentat" vibes too :)

Prince That Was Promised - Kwisatz Haderath all over again :D

Sorry for misspelling the names - I'm going by memory here.

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm with on you this.

I agree it's the second prophecy that most likely supplies the three-headed dragon and may (or may not) involve something about a song and ice and fire.

Not sure I'd call the woods witch a third prophecy though. She only clarified a point of an existing prophecy.

I do agree about the 50/50 Aegon.

Yeah, it is sometimes hard to know exactly what to call the various fore-tellings in the book.

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's pretty good speculation relating Rodrik Harlaw's comment about Signs and Portents to the three-headed dragon. I'm not banking on it, but I like it. You've given it some thought--are there are possibilities? 

We'll have to wait until Marwyn reaches Dany. I think I've squeezed every bit of the 3HotD out of the books that I can.

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5 minutes ago, bent branch said:

We'll have to wait until Marwyn reaches Dany. I think I've squeezed every bit of the 3HotD out of the books that I can.

It would make a lot of sense. 

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On 8/10/2017 at 2:36 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Well let's start with the obvious presumption, that Jon is from the line of Aerys and Rahella. 

But since I really don't feel like fighting this battle here, let us for sake of argument, assume that Jon's father is Rhaegar.   Under the prevailing theory, Jon was born after the death of Aerys, and Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s children,  which means Jon was born a "king".  And while there is "king" imagery surrounding Jon, there is no imagery, or symbolism of Jon as a Prince.  So if Jon was never in fact a prince, why would he be the Prince that was Promised?

So let's turn to someone who was in fact, born a prince, Rhaegar's son, Aegon.  In fact Aegon was born a prince on both his paternal and maternal side.  He was a Targaryen prince, but on his mother's side he was also born a Dornish prince.  In fact, I think that you can make a decent argument that the Prince that was Promised prophecy is more likely a Dornish or Rhoynish prophecy then a Targaryen or Valyrian one. 

Aemon laments that they have been struggling over the translation of this prophecy for a thousand years.  A thousand years ago, the dragon riders were part of a Freehold, not a monarchy.  There would not have been dragon kings or dragon princes back then.  But the Rhoynes' principal sovereign was a Prince.  And as a beleaguered culture, they may have had more of a reason to believe in a future messiah.  We also don't have an evidence that the Targaryens associated themselves with the Prince that was Promised prophecy until the reign of Aegon V.  And Aegon's mother was a Dayne, and his grandmother was a Martell.  So this prophecy could have just as easily been introduced into House Targareyn through their Dornish ancestry.

So Rhaegar may have had a very good rationale for believing that his half Dornish son was the fulfillment of the prophecy. 

So the next issue is whether Rhaegar's theory was bashed, along with the head of the infant killed by Ser Gregor.  There is a possibility that Varys is at least partially correct, and that the infant who's head was bashed in was in fact an imposter, a pisswater prince.  So perhaps Young Griff does indeed fit the bill.  Or perhaps Young Griff is also an imposter, and the actual Aegon is still alive and perhaps hidden (perhaps in plain view to the reader).

We also can’t assume that the role of the Prince that was Promised is fulfilled through the life of the Prince.  It very well may be the case that the role of the Prince that was Promised is fulfilled through the death, or the sacrifice, of the character, and not through his life.  In fact Elia asking Rhaegar if he will make a song for their son, makes me raise my eyebrow a bit.  It appears that people are usually celebrated through song after their death, as a type of eulogy.

 

  Perhaps the Prince that was Promised is a sacrifice akin to the Prince of Pentos.

 

 

Now if we include characters who have met their untimely demise, our list of candidates grows.  This makes me think about Viserys and Rhaego.  Rhaego is the most interesting possibility.  His death, or miscarriage, occurs while his father, the Khal, is still alive.  So technically Rhaego “dies” a prince.  His death also occurs in the tent when and where Mirri is performing her blood magic ritual, whose purpose is to transfer the “spirit” of Drogo’s horse into Drogo.  Dany’s dragon eggs also sit within this same tent.  It is possible that during this ritual Rhaego’s “spirit” or life force is transferred into one of Dany’s eggs, and Rhaego is in fact is born not directly from Dany, but as one of her dragon’s in the funeral pyre. 

Rhaego was prophesized to be the the Stallion that mounts the world.  So either GRRM was “trolling” us through the Old Dotraki Crone’s prophecy, or else Rhaego fulfills this prophecy in an unexpected way.  Rhaego living on as an actual fire breathing dragon would certainly be a unique way of fulfilling the Dothraki prophecy.

So perhaps Rhaego fulfills the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised in the same unexpected way.  And in fact we have some evidence that both Aemon and Rhaegar may equate the Prince that was Promised prophecy with actual dragons:

 

 

So the question is what does it mean to be the head of a dragon?  Is it symbolic or something more?  When the Freys cut off Robb’s head and replaced it with the head of the wolf, many see it as symbolic of what Robb was in life, a warg.  The consciousness transferring from man to wolf, and vice versa. 

We have the inverse of this symbol with a Valyrian dragon.

 

With that image in mind, it may give an explanation to Aemon’s cryptic words to Sam:

 

Perhaps the riddle is how to transfer a human consciousness into a dragon.  The Prince that was Promised literally becomes the “head of a dragon”.

With that in mind, the next assumption that I’m not comfortable with is the idea that Rhaegar believes that the Prince that was Promised is some sort of union between ice and fire.  Since we don’t know what the Song of Ice and Fire is, it seems presumptuous to assume that the Prince that was Promised is the only character of the song.  In fact it’s equally plausible, that the Song of Ice and Fire foretells a war between Ice and Fire, and the Prince that was Promised, is the champion of fire.

In fact it seems that this is the more likely explanation.  Aemon seems to believe that the Prince that was Promised is a major figure in the War of the Dawn.

 

And Aemon identifies the cold based creatures north of the wall as the enemy.

 

So if Aemon equates the Prince (or Princess) that was Promised with dragons (fire made flesh) and if he equates the threat as a “creeping cold”, then it seems that Aemon may see the War for the Dawn as Fire vs Ice.  And if Aemon believes that, then it is likely that Rhaegar may believe that as well.  In which case, Rhaegar’s reference to A Song of Ice and Fire is unlikely a reference to the union of Ice and Fire, but a battle between the two forces, with Rhaegar’s son as the Prince that was Promised as being the champion of fire.

I appreciate all the contemplation that must have went into this.  While reading about the Dornish connection to the Prophecy it dawned on me that if your theorum was correct that it would make Young Griff's locale not as random as it seems rowing down the Rhoyne, wouldn't it?  If that's accurate, the clues are sorta right there staring at us.  Prince Garin would be the most fabled prince of that region and of course unleashed the great Rhoynish curse of Greyscale and all its forms.  

I kind of like the idea that multiple sources may be required to come together to face this threat and that in so doing there's all kinds of well meaning people herrings clues mixed up or confused or not puzzled out quite as well as intended because the way they look at clues is literal or something like that.  

I like these alternative ideas and I'll be looking at the clues with this viewpoint in mind.

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11 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Silent Sisters spy network? So Bene Geserit :)

The Maesters have strong "mentat" vibes too :)

Prince That Was Promised - Kwisatz Haderath all over again :D

Sorry for misspelling the names - I'm going by memory here.

Misspell away. I don't think I'm familiar with any of those, so I won't know the difference. :)

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On the three heads: Maester Aemon doesn't seem to think that the heads need to be siblings:

“The dragon must have three heads,” he wailed, “but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me.”

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20 hours ago, LordImp said:

One question: Does the three heads have to be Targs? If not I think Dany, Jon and Bran are the three heads.

GRRM has said "The third head doesn't necessarily have to BE Targaryen."

Which implies first that no, they don't all have to be Targs, and second that the first two are Targs.

So Bran fits, Tyrion fits without being a Targ. And anyone else could technically fit, though those with Targ blood in some measure (Robert's bastards, Brown Ben, Shireen, any descendant of Aegon IV) probably stand a slightly better chance.

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Personally, I would like Shireen to be the third head, she seems a nice person and would deserve some boon to offset her affliction. But I think that Tyrion is more likely - the third head should have its PoV, and there won't be any new PoVs.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Personally, I would like Shireen to be the third head, she seems a nice person and would deserve some boon to offset her affliction. But I think that Tyrion is more likely - the third head should have its PoV, and there won't be any new PoVs.

I'd like that too. That way the dragons aren't coming to kill her, they want her to join them. I'd love to see her riding a dragon. Shame she can't walk out of a fire unharmed.

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Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.  A lot of things.  His interpretations of prophecies were wrong.  Daenerys is the three-headed dragon.  

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.  A lot of things.  His interpretations of prophecies were wrong.  Daenerys is the three-headed dragon.  

I see you subscribe to the theory that one person is all three heads. Why is that? I've never seen any solid textual support for it, and the last time I saw someone reference one-person-three-heads they were saying it was Jon.

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@Lew Theobald

That is well thought out.  A handful of those points are actually logical, and piqued my interest....thanks.  I do think the majority of them are based on assumptions......a "because this may be, then this must be" thought process.  But thanks for sharing all the same...definitely interesting.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

I'll give you the short version; just listing the arguable "hints" without undue elucidation:

(1) Targ history is a realistic portrait of ill effects of inbreeding, mitigated by semi-regular outbreeding.

(2) E.g., the Great Bastards tend to be more vigorous & gifted than their more inbred royal kin.

(3) E.g., Aegon V ("Egg") studies Targ history, & concludes that incest is bad.

(4) Aerys & Rhaella are born of sibling parents & already show ill effects; further inbreeding should be disastrous.

(5) Rhaella's string of reproductive failures & Viserys are the fitting result of such a union.

(6) Rhaegar breaks the pattern; he's too healthy & gifted (the same goes for Dany).

(7) Bonifer & Rhaella had an early affair of the heart, broken by Rhaella’s forced marriage.

(8) GRRM is awful coy about #7, forcing the reader to combine 2 widely separated clues.

(9) Rhaegar is born very early in Rhaella’s marriage, possibly within 1 year.

(10) Rhaegar & Bonifer are both tall, and top-level tournament fighters.

(11) Bonifer’s turn to piety is hinted to result from some hidden shame.

(12) Aerys’ mad suspicion that Rhaella’s sickly children are not his, could be an ironic hint.

(13) The Aerys/Rhaella/Bonifer situation closely parallels the Aegon4/Naerys/Dragonknight situation; it is hinted Dragonknight may have sired Naerys’ firstborn.

(14) Jahaerys forces his kids Aerys & Rhaella to marry because of the prophesy.

(15) Prophesy is treacherous; it never means what you think; ask Gorghan of Old Ghis.

(16) Would GRRM justify forced marriage, thereby saving the world, by having Jahaerys be right?

(17) If Jahaerys is wrong, it might mean that TPTWP will not result from Aerys & Rhaella’s direct union, but from the union of their (separate) children.

(18) Rhaegar initially believed he was TPTWP, but changed his mind.  (Possibly, he realized he did not unite the lines of Aerys & Rhaella).

(19) Aerys had a randy period where he preyed on married Ladies of the Court.

(20) Elia’s mom served as a Lady of the Court under Aerys.

(21) Elia was allegedly born “a month early”, in Sunspear. 

(22) Rhaegar’s choice of Elia, as his bride, was evidently based neither on her beauty, her health, nor the approval of King Aerys.

(23) Rhaegar believed his children by Elia would be TPTWP and/or the 3 heads of the dragon.

I'm pretty much on board with all of this.  But I would go one step further because I think all of Rahella's surviving children were bastards with another man. 

7 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Viserys was no dragon.  He was less than the shadow of a snake.  That may well have been evident to Rhaegar.  Meanwhile, a string of miscarriages and sickly dying babes showed that Viserys was the best result the direct union of Aerys & Rhaella could achieve.

The prophesy never said that the first person to unite the lines of Aerys & Rhaella would necessarily be TPTWP.

Or else Rahella also had Viserys with another man, perhaps Handsome Lord Velaryon of  Driftmark.  Compare this description of Viserys:

Quote

He was a gaunt young man with nervous hands and a feverish look in his pale lilac eyes...

His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch.  It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face.

With a known bastard of the deceased Lord Velaryon: 

Quote

It was not the first time the queen had made note of Waters, a lean young man with grey-green eyes and long silver-gold hair.  The first time she had seen him, for half a heartbeat she had almost thought Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the ashes.  It is his hair, she told herself.  He is not half as comely as Rhaegar was.  His face is too narrow, and he has that cleft in his chin.  The Velaryons came from old Valyrian stock, however, and some had the same silvery hair as the dragon kings of old.

Danaerys even tries to give Viserys clothing that would be more fitting with House Velaryon:

Quote

She was arranging the last of his gifts- a sandsilk cloak, green as grass, with a pale grey border that would bring out the silver in his hair

And of course Viserys rails against this cloak:

Quote

Viserys picked up the cloak and sniffed at it.  "This stinks of manure.  Perhaps I shall use it as a horse blanket."

Perhaps he meant as a Sea-horse blanket.  Now compare to the colors of House Velaryon, which are sea-green and silver.  Now we have this description of Lord Velaryon's cloak:

Quote

Handsome Lord Velaryon chose sea-green silk, the white gold seahorse at his throat matching his long fair hair.

So Lord Velaryon has a sea-green cloak with white-gold seahorse to match his hair.  Viserys is given a grass-green cloak (green as the Dothraki sea) with a pale grey border to bring out the silver in his hair.

And if Viserys is half Velaryon, this ironic passage:

Quote

Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor.  But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried.  "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her.  "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

He was a fool about that, and so much else, Dany thought.

We know that Ser Darry was supposed to have been accompanied by four loyal men when they smuggled Viserys (and allegedly Dany) to Braavos under the cover of night.  Now Darry wasn't a sailor, but Lord Velaryon was.  It's very possible that he was one of the four men who accompanied Darry to rescue his bastard son from Dragonstone.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Is the Night King a Targ?  Or did the show skip the "dragon has three heads" part?

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28 minutes ago, BloodRider said:

Is the Night King a Targ?  Or did the show skip the "dragon has three heads" part?

We're really not supposed to discuss the show here. It's not relevant anyway. 

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