Lost Melnibonean

The Three Heads of Rhaegar's Dragon

83 posts in this topic

One question: Does the three heads have to be Targs? If not I think Dany, Jon and Bran are the three heads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You've got your Rhaenas and dragons mixed up. Lady Rhaena, daughter of Prince Daemon and Laena Velaryon hatched Morning. And Morning was not the last dragon. The last dragon was green, sickly, and has no name that we know of.

Mea Culpa. I am easily confused by Targaryen family history. It hasn't interested me much until this week, and I'm just starting to try to sort it out.

That earlier Rhaena actually strengthens my other suspicions: that the Velaryon line had stronger dragon-hatching power, for some reason, than the Targaryen line. She was more closely related to Corlys, who seems like the patriarch of the Velaryon line, so she may have had stronger power. Pretty much crackpot, I admit.

The Maidenvault Rhaena, daughter of Aegon III and Daenaera Valeryon approximately two generations later, is the one who was very devout. She might have put her religious inclinations to work for the "Three Heads" strategy. I'm wondering whether her part of the "Three Sisters" plot had to do with organizing the septas and/or silent sisters into a secret police and spy network. But I have no evidence for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, LordImp said:

One question: Does the three heads have to be Targs? If not I think Dany, Jon and Bran are the three heads.

As I suggested in the OP, I think the reader should be looking for "dragons," but not necessarily "Targaryens." 

Quote

I just got back from a book signing with GRRM. Wow! It was relatively small, no reading, so my brother, two friends and I had the opportunity to stand around and pick the Great One's brain for nearly forty minutes. He was wonderfully accomodating and I was very pleased that he -exceeded- my expectations.

...

This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/

I suspect one is a Blackfyre who thinks he is a Targaryen, and the other is a Targaryen who thinks he is a Snow. 

What's in a name? that which we call a rose/By any other name would smell as sweet;

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Seams said:

Mea Culpa. I am easily confused by Targaryen family history. It hasn't interested me much until this week, and I'm just starting to try to sort it out.

That earlier Rhaena actually strengthens my other suspicions: that the Velaryon line had stronger dragon-hatching power, for some reason, than the Targaryen line. She was more closely related to Corlys, who seems like the patriarch of the Velaryon line, so she may have had stronger power. Pretty much crackpot, I admit.

The Maidenvault Rhaena, daughter of Aegon III and Daenaera Valeryon approximately two generations later, is the one who was very devout. She might have put her religious inclinations to work for the "Three Heads" strategy. I'm wondering whether her part of the "Three Sisters" plot had to do with organizing the septas and/or silent sisters into a secret police and spy network. But I have no evidence for that.

It would help if the Targs didn't keep using the same names. But that's part of the historical accuracy and realism.

I can't think of a reason why the Velyarons, a non-dragonlord family, would have any particular power that the Targs lacked. Though I could see them not being targeted as much by any Citadel conspiracy to commit dracicide. The main efforts would no doubt be focused on the dragons and eggs at King's Landing and Dragonstone. Rhaena may even have been in the Vale when her dragon hatched, we don't really know. But we do know she never rode it, so it probably didn't live long enough for that, and we know she had other dragon eggs that may never have hatched.

I like the idea of a Silent Sisters spy network. They'd make great little birds. For the septas, maybe there will be something in TWOW about Tyene's infiltration of the Faith that will give you some evidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But the sigil was only created when Aegon and his two sister-wives invaded with their three dragons, so it could have just been meant to represent them. 

Sigils were not something that came from Valyrian culture. It wasn't until the Targaryens conquered Westeros that they needed a sigil. Therefore, the fact that the Targaryens didn't develop a sigil until that time is meaningless as far as being a clue.

Now, is it impossible to determine whether Aegon chose the three-headed dragon sigil because of a prophecy or because it represented him and his sisters or BOTH, but we can look at some clues to get an idea.

I will return to a claim I have made in the past that we are dealing with three different prophecies. The first is the one Melisandre found in the ancient texts of Asshai regarding Azor Ahai, which appears to be from about 1,000 years ago per Aemon. The last is the woods witch prophecy which was from about 70-90 years ago. The second prophecy, from about 400 years ago, is this one referenced by Rodrik Harlaw (AFFC-Chapter 11):

Quote

"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria. Does Lanny know you are here?"

Which of these three prophecies the three-heads of dragon comes from is very important. I am of the opinion that it comes from either the second or third prophecy, since Melisandre (and indeed, all of Essos, except Illyrio) seems unaware of it. Melisandre is also unaware of the prophecy saying the PTWP must come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Therefore, the 3-heads probably comes from one of these two. If it comes from the last prophecy it is almost certain that all three heads need to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. If it comes from the middle prophecy it is more open. Although I think it unlikely, if it comes from the first prophecy it is probably irrelevant to Aerys and Rhaella's line.

If I were to guess, based on what information we have, I would go with both "the dragon has three heads" and "his is the song of ice and fire" coming from the second prophecy. The reason for this is Aegon I. He was one very weird dude, who did all sorts of odd things while giving no explanation. Without going into a long examination of Aegon I, I think he was a major prophecy junkie like many members of his family. I suspect that he conquered Westeros because of prophecy. I think he may have thought he and his sisters were the prophesized three-headed dragon and that is why he did what he did and chose the sigil he did.

However, until we know more, none of us can say what is right. That is why I say it is 50/50 whether Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's son or not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Sigils were not something that came from Valyrian culture. It wasn't until the Targaryens conquered Westeros that they needed a sigil. Therefore, the fact that the Targaryens didn't develop a sigil until that time is meaningless as far as being a clue.

Now, is it impossible to determine whether Aegon chose the three-headed dragon sigil because of a prophecy or because it represented him and his sisters or BOTH, but we can look at some clues to get an idea.

I will return to a claim I have made in the past that we are dealing with three different prophecies. The first is the one Melisandre found in the ancient texts of Asshai regarding Azor Ahai, which appears to be from about 1,000 years ago per Aemon. The last is the woods witch prophecy which was from about 70-90 years ago. The second prophecy, from about 400 years ago, is this one referenced by Rodrik Harlaw (AFFC-Chapter 11):

Which of these three prophecies the three-heads of dragon comes from is very important. I am of the opinion that it comes from either the second or third prophecy, since Melisandre (and indeed, all of Essos, except Illyrio) seems unaware of it. Melisandre is also unaware of the prophecy saying the PTWP must come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Therefore, the 3-heads probably comes from one of these two. If it comes from the last prophecy it is almost certain that all three heads need to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. If it comes from the middle prophecy it is more open. Although I think it unlikely, if it comes from the first prophecy it is probably irrelevant to Aerys and Rhaella's line.

If I were to guess, based on what information we have, I would go with both "the dragon has three heads" and "his is the song of ice and fire" coming from the second prophecy. The reason for this is Aegon I. He was one very weird dude, who did all sorts of odd things while giving no explanation. Without going into a long examination of Aegon I, I think he was a major prophecy junkie like many members of his family. I suspect that he conquered Westeros because of prophecy. I think he may have thought he and his sisters were the prophesized three-headed dragon and that is why he did what he did and chose the sigil he did.

However, until we know more, none of us can say what is right. That is why I say it is 50/50 whether Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's son or not. 

I'm with on you this.

I agree it's the second prophecy that most likely supplies the three-headed dragon and may (or may not) involve something about a song and ice and fire.

Not sure I'd call the woods witch a third prophecy though. She only clarified a point of an existing prophecy.

I do agree about the 50/50 Aegon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Sigils were not something that came from Valyrian culture. It wasn't until the Targaryens conquered Westeros that they needed a sigil. Therefore, the fact that the Targaryens didn't develop a sigil until that time is meaningless as far as being a clue.

Now, is it impossible to determine whether Aegon chose the three-headed dragon sigil because of a prophecy or because it represented him and his sisters or BOTH, but we can look at some clues to get an idea.

I will return to a claim I have made in the past that we are dealing with three different prophecies. The first is the one Melisandre found in the ancient texts of Asshai regarding Azor Ahai, which appears to be from about 1,000 years ago per Aemon. The last is the woods witch prophecy which was from about 70-90 years ago. The second prophecy, from about 400 years ago, is this one referenced by Rodrik Harlaw (AFFC-Chapter 11):

Which of these three prophecies the three-heads of dragon comes from is very important. I am of the opinion that it comes from either the second or third prophecy, since Melisandre (and indeed, all of Essos, except Illyrio) seems unaware of it. Melisandre is also unaware of the prophecy saying the PTWP must come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Therefore, the 3-heads probably comes from one of these two. If it comes from the last prophecy it is almost certain that all three heads need to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. If it comes from the middle prophecy it is more open. Although I think it unlikely, if it comes from the first prophecy it is probably irrelevant to Aerys and Rhaella's line.

If I were to guess, based on what information we have, I would go with both "the dragon has three heads" and "his is the song of ice and fire" coming from the second prophecy. The reason for this is Aegon I. He was one very weird dude, who did all sorts of odd things while giving no explanation. Without going into a long examination of Aegon I, I think he was a major prophecy junkie like many members of his family. I suspect that he conquered Westeros because of prophecy. I think he may have thought he and his sisters were the prophesized three-headed dragon and that is why he did what he did and chose the sigil he did.

However, until we know more, none of us can say what is right. That is why I say it is 50/50 whether Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's son or not. 

That's pretty good speculation relating Rodrik Harlaw's comment about Signs and Portents to the three-headed dragon. I'm not banking on it, but I like it. You've given it some thought--are there are possibilities? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I like the idea of a Silent Sisters spy network. They'd make great little birds. For the septas, maybe there will be something in TWOW about Tyene's infiltration of the Faith that will give you some evidence.

Silent Sisters spy network? So Bene Geserit :)

The Maesters have strong "mentat" vibes too :)

Prince That Was Promised - Kwisatz Haderath all over again :D

Sorry for misspelling the names - I'm going by memory here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm with on you this.

I agree it's the second prophecy that most likely supplies the three-headed dragon and may (or may not) involve something about a song and ice and fire.

Not sure I'd call the woods witch a third prophecy though. She only clarified a point of an existing prophecy.

I do agree about the 50/50 Aegon.

Yeah, it is sometimes hard to know exactly what to call the various fore-tellings in the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's pretty good speculation relating Rodrik Harlaw's comment about Signs and Portents to the three-headed dragon. I'm not banking on it, but I like it. You've given it some thought--are there are possibilities? 

We'll have to wait until Marwyn reaches Dany. I think I've squeezed every bit of the 3HotD out of the books that I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, bent branch said:

We'll have to wait until Marwyn reaches Dany. I think I've squeezed every bit of the 3HotD out of the books that I can.

It would make a lot of sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2017 at 2:36 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Well let's start with the obvious presumption, that Jon is from the line of Aerys and Rahella. 

But since I really don't feel like fighting this battle here, let us for sake of argument, assume that Jon's father is Rhaegar.   Under the prevailing theory, Jon was born after the death of Aerys, and Rhaegar, and Rhaegar’s children,  which means Jon was born a "king".  And while there is "king" imagery surrounding Jon, there is no imagery, or symbolism of Jon as a Prince.  So if Jon was never in fact a prince, why would he be the Prince that was Promised?

So let's turn to someone who was in fact, born a prince, Rhaegar's son, Aegon.  In fact Aegon was born a prince on both his paternal and maternal side.  He was a Targaryen prince, but on his mother's side he was also born a Dornish prince.  In fact, I think that you can make a decent argument that the Prince that was Promised prophecy is more likely a Dornish or Rhoynish prophecy then a Targaryen or Valyrian one. 

Aemon laments that they have been struggling over the translation of this prophecy for a thousand years.  A thousand years ago, the dragon riders were part of a Freehold, not a monarchy.  There would not have been dragon kings or dragon princes back then.  But the Rhoynes' principal sovereign was a Prince.  And as a beleaguered culture, they may have had more of a reason to believe in a future messiah.  We also don't have an evidence that the Targaryens associated themselves with the Prince that was Promised prophecy until the reign of Aegon V.  And Aegon's mother was a Dayne, and his grandmother was a Martell.  So this prophecy could have just as easily been introduced into House Targareyn through their Dornish ancestry.

So Rhaegar may have had a very good rationale for believing that his half Dornish son was the fulfillment of the prophecy. 

So the next issue is whether Rhaegar's theory was bashed, along with the head of the infant killed by Ser Gregor.  There is a possibility that Varys is at least partially correct, and that the infant who's head was bashed in was in fact an imposter, a pisswater prince.  So perhaps Young Griff does indeed fit the bill.  Or perhaps Young Griff is also an imposter, and the actual Aegon is still alive and perhaps hidden (perhaps in plain view to the reader).

We also can’t assume that the role of the Prince that was Promised is fulfilled through the life of the Prince.  It very well may be the case that the role of the Prince that was Promised is fulfilled through the death, or the sacrifice, of the character, and not through his life.  In fact Elia asking Rhaegar if he will make a song for their son, makes me raise my eyebrow a bit.  It appears that people are usually celebrated through song after their death, as a type of eulogy.

 

  Perhaps the Prince that was Promised is a sacrifice akin to the Prince of Pentos.

 

 

Now if we include characters who have met their untimely demise, our list of candidates grows.  This makes me think about Viserys and Rhaego.  Rhaego is the most interesting possibility.  His death, or miscarriage, occurs while his father, the Khal, is still alive.  So technically Rhaego “dies” a prince.  His death also occurs in the tent when and where Mirri is performing her blood magic ritual, whose purpose is to transfer the “spirit” of Drogo’s horse into Drogo.  Dany’s dragon eggs also sit within this same tent.  It is possible that during this ritual Rhaego’s “spirit” or life force is transferred into one of Dany’s eggs, and Rhaego is in fact is born not directly from Dany, but as one of her dragon’s in the funeral pyre. 

Rhaego was prophesized to be the the Stallion that mounts the world.  So either GRRM was “trolling” us through the Old Dotraki Crone’s prophecy, or else Rhaego fulfills this prophecy in an unexpected way.  Rhaego living on as an actual fire breathing dragon would certainly be a unique way of fulfilling the Dothraki prophecy.

So perhaps Rhaego fulfills the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised in the same unexpected way.  And in fact we have some evidence that both Aemon and Rhaegar may equate the Prince that was Promised prophecy with actual dragons:

 

 

So the question is what does it mean to be the head of a dragon?  Is it symbolic or something more?  When the Freys cut off Robb’s head and replaced it with the head of the wolf, many see it as symbolic of what Robb was in life, a warg.  The consciousness transferring from man to wolf, and vice versa. 

We have the inverse of this symbol with a Valyrian dragon.

 

With that image in mind, it may give an explanation to Aemon’s cryptic words to Sam:

 

Perhaps the riddle is how to transfer a human consciousness into a dragon.  The Prince that was Promised literally becomes the “head of a dragon”.

With that in mind, the next assumption that I’m not comfortable with is the idea that Rhaegar believes that the Prince that was Promised is some sort of union between ice and fire.  Since we don’t know what the Song of Ice and Fire is, it seems presumptuous to assume that the Prince that was Promised is the only character of the song.  In fact it’s equally plausible, that the Song of Ice and Fire foretells a war between Ice and Fire, and the Prince that was Promised, is the champion of fire.

In fact it seems that this is the more likely explanation.  Aemon seems to believe that the Prince that was Promised is a major figure in the War of the Dawn.

 

And Aemon identifies the cold based creatures north of the wall as the enemy.

 

So if Aemon equates the Prince (or Princess) that was Promised with dragons (fire made flesh) and if he equates the threat as a “creeping cold”, then it seems that Aemon may see the War for the Dawn as Fire vs Ice.  And if Aemon believes that, then it is likely that Rhaegar may believe that as well.  In which case, Rhaegar’s reference to A Song of Ice and Fire is unlikely a reference to the union of Ice and Fire, but a battle between the two forces, with Rhaegar’s son as the Prince that was Promised as being the champion of fire.

I appreciate all the contemplation that must have went into this.  While reading about the Dornish connection to the Prophecy it dawned on me that if your theorum was correct that it would make Young Griff's locale not as random as it seems rowing down the Rhoyne, wouldn't it?  If that's accurate, the clues are sorta right there staring at us.  Prince Garin would be the most fabled prince of that region and of course unleashed the great Rhoynish curse of Greyscale and all its forms.  

I kind of like the idea that multiple sources may be required to come together to face this threat and that in so doing there's all kinds of well meaning people herrings clues mixed up or confused or not puzzled out quite as well as intended because the way they look at clues is literal or something like that.  

I like these alternative ideas and I'll be looking at the clues with this viewpoint in mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Silent Sisters spy network? So Bene Geserit :)

The Maesters have strong "mentat" vibes too :)

Prince That Was Promised - Kwisatz Haderath all over again :D

Sorry for misspelling the names - I'm going by memory here.

Misspell away. I don't think I'm familiar with any of those, so I won't know the difference. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the three heads: Maester Aemon doesn't seem to think that the heads need to be siblings:

“The dragon must have three heads,” he wailed, “but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, LordImp said:

One question: Does the three heads have to be Targs? If not I think Dany, Jon and Bran are the three heads.

GRRM has said "The third head doesn't necessarily have to BE Targaryen."

Which implies first that no, they don't all have to be Targs, and second that the first two are Targs.

So Bran fits, Tyrion fits without being a Targ. And anyone else could technically fit, though those with Targ blood in some measure (Robert's bastards, Brown Ben, Shireen, any descendant of Aegon IV) probably stand a slightly better chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I would like Shireen to be the third head, she seems a nice person and would deserve some boon to offset her affliction. But I think that Tyrion is more likely - the third head should have its PoV, and there won't be any new PoVs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Personally, I would like Shireen to be the third head, she seems a nice person and would deserve some boon to offset her affliction. But I think that Tyrion is more likely - the third head should have its PoV, and there won't be any new PoVs.

I'd like that too. That way the dragons aren't coming to kill her, they want her to join them. I'd love to see her riding a dragon. Shame she can't walk out of a fire unharmed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.  A lot of things.  His interpretations of prophecies were wrong.  Daenerys is the three-headed dragon.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.  A lot of things.  His interpretations of prophecies were wrong.  Daenerys is the three-headed dragon.  

I see you subscribe to the theory that one person is all three heads. Why is that? I've never seen any solid textual support for it, and the last time I saw someone reference one-person-three-heads they were saying it was Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 8/10/2017 at 5:56 AM, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Perhaps I was being a bit sharp.  My apologies.  

I just don't see it.  This is what we know about Bonifer Hasty:

That is virtually all of the text regarding Bonifer Hasty.  Where are the hints?  I'm really curious.

I'll give you the short version; just listing the arguable "hints" without undue elucidation:

(1) Targ history is a realistic portrait of ill effects of inbreeding, mitigated by semi-regular outbreeding.

(2) E.g., the Great Bastards tend to be more vigorous & gifted than their more inbred royal kin.

(3) E.g., Aegon V ("Egg") studies Targ history, & concludes that incest is bad.

(4) Aerys & Rhaella are born of sibling parents & already show ill effects; further inbreeding should be disastrous.

(5) Rhaella's string of reproductive failures & Viserys are the fitting result of such a union.

(6) Rhaegar breaks the pattern; he's too healthy & gifted (the same goes for Dany).

(7) Bonifer & Rhaella had an early affair of the heart, broken by Rhaella’s forced marriage.

(8) GRRM is awful coy about #7, forcing the reader to combine 2 widely separated clues.

(9) Rhaegar is born very early in Rhaella’s marriage, possibly within 1 year.

(10) Rhaegar & Bonifer are both tall, and top-level tournament fighters.

(11) Bonifer’s turn to piety is hinted to result from some hidden shame.

(12) Aerys’ mad suspicion that Rhaella’s sickly children are not his, could be an ironic hint.

(13) The Aerys/Rhaella/Bonifer situation closely parallels the Aegon4/Naerys/Dragonknight situation; it is hinted Dragonknight may have sired Naerys’ firstborn.

(14) Jahaerys forces his kids Aerys & Rhaella to marry because of the prophesy.

(15) Prophesy is treacherous; it never means what you think; ask Gorghan of Old Ghis.

(16) Would GRRM justify forced marriage, thereby saving the world, by having Jahaerys be right?

(17) If Jahaerys is wrong, it might mean that TPTWP will not result from Aerys & Rhaella’s direct union, but from the union of their (separate) children.

(18) Rhaegar initially believed he was TPTWP, but changed his mind.  (Possibly, he realized he did not unite the lines of Aerys & Rhaella).

(19) Aerys had a randy period where he preyed on married Ladies of the Court.

(20) Elia’s mom served as a Lady of the Court under Aerys.

(21) Elia was allegedly born “a month early”, in Sunspear. 

(22) Rhaegar’s choice of Elia, as his bride, was evidently based neither on her beauty, her health, nor the approval of King Aerys.

(23) Rhaegar believed his children by Elia would be TPTWP and/or the 3 heads of the dragon.

Edited by Lew Theobald

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now