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Clegane'sPup

Vanity Fair article- orginal outline

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Thanks for sharing, while I have never read the outline I have seen it alluded to way too many times.  I agree that GRRM is bored and doesn't want to write ASOIAF anymore (which is in part why AFFC and ADWD were so... different than what had been set up in the first three books) and I just wish he would announce to everyone that it is done rather than torture his fans by spending sooooo much time writing other things while also giving hope for more books.

Yeah Jon and Dany are going to bone and fall in love and no one will care, and some people will call them hypocrites but no one will care.  I don't know why Dany is so popular.  I think this is part of the reason Val wasn't included on the show - so Dany would be the only person people 'Ship with Jon.

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Yes, many people will be bothered by the incestuous relationship

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The Aunt Uncle thing will creep out a lot of people who actually think about it other than seeing Kit and Emelia fake F on screen. Incest is nasty, bad and is considered extreme taboo for a reason. Even for today's rather loose standards on sexuality.

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On 8/9/2017 at 8:56 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Thanks for sharing, while I have never read the outline I have seen it alluded to way too many times.

Did you click the writer's source and view the outline? Just curious. 

The three-page letter from Martin to his publisher was corroborated by HarperCollins before the tweet was taken down, so we know it’s legitimate. But at the time, this artifact from 1993 was more of an oddity, providing glimpses of a story that would never be rather than a major revelation of what would happen. But now, over two years and 14 episodes of television later, it turns out there are some intriguingly explosive possibilities lurking in the outline that are worth re-examining.

 

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I thought that Vanity Fair article rather interesting.

I don't watch the show as it airs. That's why I don't participate on the GoT board. I buy the DVD's when they become available. I read recaps and watch clips during the season.

Book readers who also watch the show can't discuss the two entity's on the book forum and have to come here. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Dany's life experience is very different than Jon's.

Jon & Ygritte in the books had what I would call a rather innocent sexual relation. Dany on the other hand has had a different orientation to sexual activity.

On 8/9/2017 at 9:22 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, many people will be bothered by the incestuous relationship

In the books Dany & Jon are approximately 16 years of age and they don't actually look like the actors who are aged up. I would think that Martin's Dany would find Martin's Jon rather boring,

If the HBO GoT's links Dany & Jon romantically & sexually do you think Martin plans the same or will their relationship be more along the lines of an alliance?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I thought that Vanity Fair article rather interesting.

I don't watch the show as it airs. That's why I don't participate on the GoT board. I buy the DVD's when they become available. I read recaps and watch clips during the season.

Book readers who also watch the show can't discuss the two entity's on the book forum and have to come here. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Dany's life experience is very different than Jon's.

Jon & Ygritte in the books had what I would call a rather innocent sexual relation. Dany on the other hand has had a different orientation to sexual activity.

In the books Dany & Jon are approximately 16 years of age and they don't actually look like the actors who are aged up. I would think that Martin's Dany would find Martin's Jon rather boring,

If the HBO GoT's links Dany & Jon romantically & sexually do you think Martin plans the same or will their relationship be more along the lines of an alliance?

 

 

Yes, I think they are very different to each other, not only in the books, but also in theshow.

I'd have never thought on the possibility of a Jonerys relationship in romantic terms until I read the leaks (maybe a political marriage at most) but now I'm not that sure. It could happen in the books as well.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I thought that Vanity Fair article rather interesting.

I don't watch the show as it airs. That's why I don't participate on the GoT board. I buy the DVD's when they become available. I read recaps and watch clips during the season.

Book readers who also watch the show can't discuss the two entity's on the book forum and have to come here. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Dany's life experience is very different than Jon's.

Jon & Ygritte in the books had what I would call a rather innocent sexual relation. Dany on the other hand has had a different orientation to sexual activity.

In the books Dany & Jon are approximately 16 years of age and they don't actually look like the actors who are aged up. I would think that Martin's Dany would find Martin's Jon rather boring,

If the HBO GoT's links Dany & Jon romantically & sexually do you think Martin plans the same or will their relationship be more along the lines of an alliance?

 

 

Yes.  And I think the betrayal for love will actually be Tyrion.  He'll either betray Dany due to his love for Jamie or it will be as a Targ love triangle between him, Jon and Dany.

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On August 9, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, many people will be bothered by the incestuous relationship

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin Joanna Lannister, the mother of his three children?

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Rickard's incestuous relationship with his cousin Lyarra Stark, the mother of his four children?

It isn't incest if it isn't illegal. Just because you're related to someone doesn't make it incest. Everybody's related to everybody else after all.

Incest is a crime. If it isn't illegal, it isn't incest -- by definition.

 

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On August 12, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Yes.  And I think the betrayal for love will actually be Tyrion.  He'll either betray Dany due to his love for Jamie or it will be as a Targ love triangle between him, Jon and Dany.

Unlikely: I don't see Jon being that interested in Tyrion. :)

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin Joanna Lannister, the mother of his three children?

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Rickard's incestuous relationship with his cousin Lyarra Stark, the mother of his four children?

It isn't incest if it isn't illegal. Just because you're related to someone doesn't make it incest. Everybody's related to everybody else after all.

Incest is a crime. If it isn't illegal, it isn't incest -- by definition.

 

number 1 is not the same case of incest, cousin incest is not as worse as avunculate

number two is not even mentioned in the show

and yes, people will be bothered. Of course, not everybody, but let's not pretend that it's something that the general audience will enjoy knowing.

We have seen plenty of it in the show, anyway. And with negative connotations.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin Joanna Lannister, the mother of his three children?

George says Tywin did that for power and control and blood purity type thinking. Tywin is/was an elistist. This wasn't love. And remember how Joanna was horrified when Cersei and Jaime got caught experimenting? And you can't back talk Tywin or he will Castamere you and your house. 

Quote

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Rickard's incestuous relationship with his cousin Lyarra Stark, the mother of his four children?

Second cousin once removed. That is another step away from first cousin. Two other bloodlines were introduced in that distance and that seems to be acceptable on Planetos world. 

Quote

It isn't incest if it isn't illegal. Just because you're related to someone doesn't make it incest. Everybody's related to everybody else after all.

It is an abomination against the old gods and the new. No other society on the planet is known to practice it besides the Targaryens. The Targs thought themselves above gods and men, and that includes the rules and laws. The books say so and so does George in interviews. 

And to the "we are all related"... that is a load of crap. George even talks about this in an SSM when someone asked him about the Karstarks still being related because of their ancient past. George says that it is a load of baloney and after so many generations there is no "relation" anymore. People will try to make that relation claim when they want something. 

Quote

Incest is a crime. If it isn't illegal, it isn't incest -- by definition.

 

It is, and the books spell it out to what is incest. Aside from the many times we are told that it is an abomination against the old gods and new, the fact that there was a Targ king called "King Abomination", Cersei was to go to trial for it, and that incest brought the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty, and Jaime and Cersei have to hide because they, "are not Targaryens", we get this info which explains incest as basically clan kin: 

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.
This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.
 
- and King Abomination:
 
Aenys seemed content to let the matter lie with Maegor's exile, but the High Septon was still not satisfied. Not even the appointment of the reputed miracle-worker, Septon Murmison, as Aenys's new Hand could wholly repair the breach with the Faith. And in 41 AC, Aenys made matters worse when he chose to wed his eldest daughter, Rhaena, to his son and heir, Aegon, whom he named Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place. From the Starry Sept came a denunciation such as no king had ever received before, addressed to "KingAbomination"—and suddenly pious lords and even the smallfolk who had once loved Aenys turned against him.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Posted (edited)

On 10/08/2017 at 2:56 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 I just wish he would announce to everyone that it is done rather than torture his fans by spending sooooo much time writing other things while also giving hope for more books.

That would be very stupid on his part. By allowing people to keep up hope for an eventual release of WoW and ADoS Martin can still make a lot of money of the ASoIaF franchise by releasing side stories, supplementary material, making con-appearances reading the 12th sample-chapter etc etc etc

Edit: Not saying he necessarily does that on purpose, it just seems sensible form a business perspective.

If he came out and said that there would be no WoW anymore people would just lose interest and move on. In addition to that they might be less inclined to purchase any future book series he might still write because "He didn't finish ASoIaF, who knows if he'll finish this one?"

Personally, if the TV show should end up beng the only conclusion we'll ever get, I'm fine with it. Once the TV show's finale has aired I'm done with Westeors. There will  be more fantasy realms to explore.

Edited by Orphalesion

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9 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

That would be very stupid on his part. By allowing people to keep up hope for an eventual release of WoW and ADoS Martin can still make a lot of money of the ASoIaF franchise by releasing side stories, supplementary material, making con-appearances reading the 12th sample-chapter etc etc etc

If he came out and said that there would be no WoW anymore people would just lose interest and move on. In addition to that they might be less inclined to purchase any future book series he might still write because "He didn't finish ASoIaF, who knows if he'll finish this one?"

Personally, if the TV show should end up beng the only conclusion we'll ever get, I'm fine with it. Once the TV show's finale has aired I'm done with Westeors. There will  be more fantasy realms to explore.

I completely understand that from a financial perspective, and in no way do I think GRRM "owes" it to us to finish the series or spend his time in any other fashion than he pleases, but I hope he has some sympathy for his fans who dove into this series.  I knew it would never be finished before I started, but how many would go back and simply not read if he had been upfront with how he was going to focus on a billion other side projects and take 20+ years to not finish the saga?  For years he kept assuring people it would be done and takes great offense when people suggest he might die beforehand, but now he mostly keeps mum and writes other stuff and it is sooooo frustrating.

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18 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

That would be very stupid on his part. By allowing people to keep up hope for an eventual release of WoW and ADoS Martin can still make a lot of money of the ASoIaF franchise by releasing side stories, supplementary material, making con-appearances reading the 12th sample-chapter etc etc etc

Edit: Not saying he necessarily does that on purpose, it just seems sensible form a business perspective.

If he came out and said that there would be no WoW anymore people would just lose interest and move on. In addition to that they might be less inclined to purchase any future book series he might still write because "He didn't finish ASoIaF, who knows if he'll finish this one?"

Personally, if the TV show should end up beng the only conclusion we'll ever get, I'm fine with it. Once the TV show's finale has aired I'm done with Westeors. There will  be more fantasy realms to explore.

I agree.  GOT will give me the ending in broad strokes, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like the ending, but it will be an ending.

And you can count me among those that would have never started the series if I had any expectation that the author was not going to finish it, which I am sure now he will not ever finish it.

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I don't believe GRRM is bored and doesn't want to write ASOIAF. I just think the story, has grown larger and larger with each book. Not just larger but more complex. Character arches, plotlines and red herrings. So much material. I mean look at the last book. Tyrions, Arya, jons, Dany's, Sansa and Brans fates are all pivoting on major plot points. on top of that, the Stannis/Bolton/Theon situation. Jamie, is giving up on Cersei... So much is happening.  Even in the sample chapters, so many "other" characters are in motion. All these plotlines have to be coherent, and matter in some way to the story.  Its difficult to write a novel with 1 character and one plot. But Many many of them? He's just created such a large story that with each book the production/writing time expands. 

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