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Clegane'sPup

Vanity Fair article- orginal outline

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Thanks for sharing, while I have never read the outline I have seen it alluded to way too many times.  I agree that GRRM is bored and doesn't want to write ASOIAF anymore (which is in part why AFFC and ADWD were so... different than what had been set up in the first three books) and I just wish he would announce to everyone that it is done rather than torture his fans by spending sooooo much time writing other things while also giving hope for more books.

Yeah Jon and Dany are going to bone and fall in love and no one will care, and some people will call them hypocrites but no one will care.  I don't know why Dany is so popular.  I think this is part of the reason Val wasn't included on the show - so Dany would be the only person people 'Ship with Jon.

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Yes, many people will be bothered by the incestuous relationship

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The Aunt Uncle thing will creep out a lot of people who actually think about it other than seeing Kit and Emelia fake F on screen. Incest is nasty, bad and is considered extreme taboo for a reason. Even for today's rather loose standards on sexuality.

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On 8/9/2017 at 8:56 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Thanks for sharing, while I have never read the outline I have seen it alluded to way too many times.

Did you click the writer's source and view the outline? Just curious. 

The three-page letter from Martin to his publisher was corroborated by HarperCollins before the tweet was taken down, so we know it’s legitimate. But at the time, this artifact from 1993 was more of an oddity, providing glimpses of a story that would never be rather than a major revelation of what would happen. But now, over two years and 14 episodes of television later, it turns out there are some intriguingly explosive possibilities lurking in the outline that are worth re-examining.

 

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I thought that Vanity Fair article rather interesting.

I don't watch the show as it airs. That's why I don't participate on the GoT board. I buy the DVD's when they become available. I read recaps and watch clips during the season.

Book readers who also watch the show can't discuss the two entity's on the book forum and have to come here. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Dany's life experience is very different than Jon's.

Jon & Ygritte in the books had what I would call a rather innocent sexual relation. Dany on the other hand has had a different orientation to sexual activity.

On 8/9/2017 at 9:22 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, many people will be bothered by the incestuous relationship

In the books Dany & Jon are approximately 16 years of age and they don't actually look like the actors who are aged up. I would think that Martin's Dany would find Martin's Jon rather boring,

If the HBO GoT's links Dany & Jon romantically & sexually do you think Martin plans the same or will their relationship be more along the lines of an alliance?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I thought that Vanity Fair article rather interesting.

I don't watch the show as it airs. That's why I don't participate on the GoT board. I buy the DVD's when they become available. I read recaps and watch clips during the season.

Book readers who also watch the show can't discuss the two entity's on the book forum and have to come here. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Dany's life experience is very different than Jon's.

Jon & Ygritte in the books had what I would call a rather innocent sexual relation. Dany on the other hand has had a different orientation to sexual activity.

In the books Dany & Jon are approximately 16 years of age and they don't actually look like the actors who are aged up. I would think that Martin's Dany would find Martin's Jon rather boring,

If the HBO GoT's links Dany & Jon romantically & sexually do you think Martin plans the same or will their relationship be more along the lines of an alliance?

 

 

Yes, I think they are very different to each other, not only in the books, but also in theshow.

I'd have never thought on the possibility of a Jonerys relationship in romantic terms until I read the leaks (maybe a political marriage at most) but now I'm not that sure. It could happen in the books as well.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I thought that Vanity Fair article rather interesting.

I don't watch the show as it airs. That's why I don't participate on the GoT board. I buy the DVD's when they become available. I read recaps and watch clips during the season.

Book readers who also watch the show can't discuss the two entity's on the book forum and have to come here. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Dany's life experience is very different than Jon's.

Jon & Ygritte in the books had what I would call a rather innocent sexual relation. Dany on the other hand has had a different orientation to sexual activity.

In the books Dany & Jon are approximately 16 years of age and they don't actually look like the actors who are aged up. I would think that Martin's Dany would find Martin's Jon rather boring,

If the HBO GoT's links Dany & Jon romantically & sexually do you think Martin plans the same or will their relationship be more along the lines of an alliance?

 

 

Yes.  And I think the betrayal for love will actually be Tyrion.  He'll either betray Dany due to his love for Jamie or it will be as a Targ love triangle between him, Jon and Dany.

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On August 9, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, many people will be bothered by the incestuous relationship

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin Joanna Lannister, the mother of his three children?

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Rickard's incestuous relationship with his cousin Lyarra Stark, the mother of his four children?

It isn't incest if it isn't illegal. Just because you're related to someone doesn't make it incest. Everybody's related to everybody else after all.

Incest is a crime. If it isn't illegal, it isn't incest -- by definition.

 

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On August 12, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Yes.  And I think the betrayal for love will actually be Tyrion.  He'll either betray Dany due to his love for Jamie or it will be as a Targ love triangle between him, Jon and Dany.

Unlikely: I don't see Jon being that interested in Tyrion. :)

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1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin Joanna Lannister, the mother of his three children?

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Rickard's incestuous relationship with his cousin Lyarra Stark, the mother of his four children?

It isn't incest if it isn't illegal. Just because you're related to someone doesn't make it incest. Everybody's related to everybody else after all.

Incest is a crime. If it isn't illegal, it isn't incest -- by definition.

 

number 1 is not the same case of incest, cousin incest is not as worse as avunculate

number two is not even mentioned in the show

and yes, people will be bothered. Of course, not everybody, but let's not pretend that it's something that the general audience will enjoy knowing.

We have seen plenty of it in the show, anyway. And with negative connotations.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin Joanna Lannister, the mother of his three children?

George says Tywin did that for power and control and blood purity type thinking. Tywin is/was an elistist. This wasn't love. And remember how Joanna was horrified when Cersei and Jaime got caught experimenting? And you can't back talk Tywin or he will Castamere you and your house. 

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You mean the way people were bothered by Lord Rickard's incestuous relationship with his cousin Lyarra Stark, the mother of his four children?

Second cousin once removed. That is another step away from first cousin. Two other bloodlines were introduced in that distance and that seems to be acceptable on Planetos world. 

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It isn't incest if it isn't illegal. Just because you're related to someone doesn't make it incest. Everybody's related to everybody else after all.

It is an abomination against the old gods and the new. No other society on the planet is known to practice it besides the Targaryens. The Targs thought themselves above gods and men, and that includes the rules and laws. The books say so and so does George in interviews. 

And to the "we are all related"... that is a load of crap. George even talks about this in an SSM when someone asked him about the Karstarks still being related because of their ancient past. George says that it is a load of baloney and after so many generations there is no "relation" anymore. People will try to make that relation claim when they want something. 

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Incest is a crime. If it isn't illegal, it isn't incest -- by definition.

 

It is, and the books spell it out to what is incest. Aside from the many times we are told that it is an abomination against the old gods and new, the fact that there was a Targ king called "King Abomination", Cersei was to go to trial for it, and that incest brought the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty, and Jaime and Cersei have to hide because they, "are not Targaryens", we get this info which explains incest as basically clan kin: 

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.
This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.
 
- and King Abomination:
 
Aenys seemed content to let the matter lie with Maegor's exile, but the High Septon was still not satisfied. Not even the appointment of the reputed miracle-worker, Septon Murmison, as Aenys's new Hand could wholly repair the breach with the Faith. And in 41 AC, Aenys made matters worse when he chose to wed his eldest daughter, Rhaena, to his son and heir, Aegon, whom he named Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place. From the Starry Sept came a denunciation such as no king had ever received before, addressed to "KingAbomination"—and suddenly pious lords and even the smallfolk who had once loved Aenys turned against him.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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