a1andrew

Aegon as Faegon problem, Jon Snow, and House of Undying vision

62 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, divica said:

the jon name was certainly by ned, but while lyanna was pregnant she and rhaegar certainly discussed names and decided in a name for a boy and another for a girl...

OK, so why would they choose Aegon, especially given that his brother was still alive at that point?

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58 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There was an Aegon the Elder and an Aegon the Younger. 

I stand corrected, my good ser.

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19 minutes ago, Makk said:

OK, so why would they choose Aegon, especially given that his brother was still alive at that point?

Maybe rhaegar wanted tptwp to be named Aegon and at that point he thought it was jon? Depending on the legal side of things maybe rhaegar wanted to make his sons with lyanna his heirs so he decided to name him Aegon?

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14 minutes ago, divica said:

Maybe rhaegar wanted tptwp to be named Aegon and at that point he thought it was jon? Depending on the legal side of things maybe rhaegar wanted to make his sons with lyanna his heirs so he decided to name him Aegon?


He named his first child Rhaenys and his second Aegon, I think the odds favor him planning on naming his third Viserys/Visenya.

 

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2 hours ago, divica said:

And what if jon's true name is also Aegon? Do you have the exact quote from grrm?

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hey, do you recall where that SSM is? I can never find it.

From the old EEsite forum:

Quote

[Ants:] Ran, are you sure it's Elia in Dany's vision? I haven't got my book around, but I always thought it was Lyanna, and the reason the child was prophesized was that it had Stark (Ice) and Taergayen (Fire) blood in it, it being Jon.

[Ran:] It's Elia with Aegon. GRRM's confirmed that. It's not part of the SSM collection as I could never get a hold of the folk who found that out to get a copy, but the people who said it are trustworthy. Someone else learned from GRRM that the child in the scene is definently dead.

http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/song/thread43/thread431.html

Quote

[Ran:] This is from an e-mail that Revanshe forwarded to the board from an ASoIaF mailing list, originally posted by Rania after recieving a reply from GRRM: 

<< Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palacein Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >> 

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne. 

Someone else, or maybe still Revanshe, forwarded from the same list: 

I asked GRRM today about that, he said that the child from the scene is dead. I also asked whether The Song of Ice and Fire are the song of someone particular, he said that the phrase could be used in many contexts....obviously, he is hiding something 

I don't share labor's dubiousness, because the second comment -- of A Song of Ice and Fire having multiple meanings happens to be a statement from March 17, 1999 ... exactly one day _before_ Martin confirmed that same thing, for the first time I've ever seen, at the Event Horizon Chat. So, the person definently did seem to have contacted him, and they seemed unequivocal about what GRRM said, even though they show a healthy amount of speculation concerning the second statement. 

Seems clear cut to me. I don't think Revanshe would have forwarded it unless she believed what the fellow said.

http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/clashkin/thread2s/thread2s1.html

@Ran's response when I posted this to the R+L=J thread a while back:

Quote

Decided to drop by. Nice research, Schmedricko, digging up the old EEsite archive. Just as an added note, the Revanshe mentioned by me in the above quoted post was the founder of the EEsite and EzBoard forums that were both direct predecessors to this one. She also co-ran one of the first ASoIaF fan sites. She in turn was, I believe, forwarding a statement from Rania, another long-ago member of the forum who actually occasionally chatted with GRRM via AIM chat. So their report of GRRM replying to her that it was Rhaegar and Elia I take as absolutely true.

However, the "child is dead"... I dug around a bit and I was reminded that the person who reported this, who went by the handle Monte Cristo, never provided an email for that statement. I ended up tracking them down and talking to them about it, asking them to recall it to the best of their ability, and in the end they admitted that they couldn't 100% vouch that they remembered the exact wording and so couldn't 100% vouch that George's statement about the death of the child was unequivocal.

So, grain of salt on that one.

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3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

We are told that PTWP was born of their line, not that all three heads of the dragon are.  We don't really have any knowledge as to what that means.

We have also been told that the PTWP is a mistranslation. The original prophecy was the dragon that was promised. Did the dragon that was promised have three heads? It is just as likely as it does as if it doesn't.

2 hours ago, divica said:

And what if jon's true name is also Aegon? Do you have the exact quote from grrm?

There is absolutely no reason to think that Jon has any name but Jon. No, I don't have the exact quote.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hey, do you recall where that SSM is? I can never find it. 

Nope, I have never found what I was looking for in the SSM. I have found all sorts of interesting stuff, but never what I was looking for when I wanted it.

1 hour ago, Makk said:

How do you come up with this being a 50/50?

Why would it be Aegon? I guess it is not possible to prove it's impossible, but I don't think it likely nor have I seen a single argument with any evidence to point towards it. I'm not saying this is definite proof in the negative, but GRRM did answer this around 15 years ago...

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

from http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202/

If the promise was to raise Jon as his bastard child (to protect him from Roberts possible wrath) it would make perfect sense to name the child after his good friend and former father figure Jon Aryn. I don't see why he would need a targ name at all.

See my answer to aryagonnakill#2 above.

I completely agree with your take on Jon having a Targ name. It doesn't make any sense.

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4 hours ago, bent branch said:

Just remember, the PTWP must be a descendent of Aerys and Rhaella. In this story there is only Dany, Jon and possibly Aegon. If all three heads must be descendants of Aerys and Rhaella (and there is a 50/50 shot they do need to be), then Aegon is definitely the son of Rhaegar and Elia. It is the only possible answer.

Wait a second. Where does this come from, that the PTWP has to be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella?

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6 minutes ago, Pecan said:

Wait a second. Where does this come from, that the PTWP has to be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella?

The ghost of Highheart. She was a companion of Jenny of Oldstones and told Jaehaerys this particular bit of prophecy. It's the reason Aerys and Rhaella married in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

The ghost of Highheart. She was a companion of Jenny of Oldstones and told Jaehaerys this particular bit of prophecy. It's the reason Aerys and Rhaella married in the first place.

Okay. I think I remember that now. It's been a while since my last re-read. :)

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It would be funny if Rhaegar planned to name Jon after Jon Connington for whatever reason, then Ned ironically named him after Jon Arryn not knowing this.

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5 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

Thanks! So, the George says the mum and babe in the vision are Elia and Aegon--not Jon. 

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16 hours ago, a1andrew said:

Moreover, it seems to be generally accepted that she saw a representation of the son who died in her womb as an adult and a ruler.

Not by everyone, it should be noted. I'm of the opinion THAT was fAegon with the Golden Company (who are flying Bittersteel's "dragon horse" banner)

But I'm aware I'm in the minority.

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Just now, Damon_Tor said:

Not by everyone, it should be noted. I'm of the opinion THAT was fAegon with the Golden Company (who are flying Bittersteel's "dragon horse" banner)

But I'm aware I'm in the minority.

Who was this? ...

Quote

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her bre**ast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

Daenerys IX, Game 68

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9 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Not by everyone, it should be noted. I'm of the opinion THAT was fAegon with the Golden Company (who are flying Bittersteel's "dragon horse" banner)

But I'm aware I'm in the minority.

Why would Aegon be described as having copper skin?

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I love how this question pops up every so often... and always devolved into sighting a 20 year old AIM conversation.

while I usually hate SSMs since I believe GRRM is often intentionally vague and/or misleading... this one is apperantly pretty definitive.

Many of us have wanted it to be Rheagar talking about Jon for years... And the timeline does in fact leave time for this, provided Jon was conceived at Harrenhall and wasn't born at the time of Ned arriving at the ToJ. Because there would be time for one more pregnancy which would end with Lyanna's death at the ToJ after Ned's arrival.

Alas, it seems originally at least this was meant as a vision of Elia. Rheagar of course clearly being wrong about TPTWP and there being one more, since Jon and Dany make at least two more... 

It may help explain Rheagar running off with Lyanna however, given that this would have been when the Maesters informed Rheagar that Elia could not bear more children.

Anyway, it's a shame that one 20 year old answer ruins the speculation, especially if it somehow ends up to not be true, and/or GRRM changed his mind.

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14 hours ago, bent branch said:

Don't let yourself be led astray. The child in that scene is indeed Aegon. GRRM has confirmed this. Therefore, any conclusion you come to must be in agreement with that baby being Aegon. That is only logical.

Yes it is Aegon and Elia in the room with Rhaegar.  Although we don't know the third person.  Dany doesn't see the person so assumes Rhaegar is speaking to her. 

Songs are written about the events that unfold.  Aegon and everyone else is caught up in the song of ice and fire; it isn't specifically Aegon's song except that he may play a part in it.   It is a song that doesn't have an ending at this point. 

Why do the crannogmen swear by ice and fire?

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

 

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

 

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught. "May your winters be short and your summers bountiful," he said. That was usually a good thing to say. "Rise. I'm Brandon Stark."

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Who was this? ...

Daenerys IX, Game 68

Sometimes a dream is just a dream. There's no evidence that Dany, on her own, has any prophetic ability. Every time she's had what seems to be a legitimate vision or premonition it comes from someone else, either Quaithe or the Undying. So either this is a dream, and therefore reflects only Dany's anxieties or it's externally sourced, and it's what someone else wants her to see. Either way, it's less compelling evidence than, for example, the explicit prophecy of the Dosh Khaleen.

52 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Why would Aegon be described as having copper skin?

Probably to get us to have this exact conversation. I've noted before that Egg is described as having a dark bronze tan from a summer in Dorne in the second Dunk and Egg novella; dragons, it seems, don't sunburn. I've looked for any description of Young Griff's skin tone and haven't found it. It's possible I missed it (if someone could correct me on this point that would be swell).

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Why would Aegon be described as having copper skin?

I don't subscribe to this theory, but the idea would be because he was supposed to be backed by the Golden Company and Dothraki led by Viserys. 

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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't subscribe to this theory, but the idea would be because he was supposed to be backed by the Golden Company and Dothraki led by Viserys. 

Right, but if it's Aegon, why does he have copper skin?  Your answer doesn't actually address that question.  He's being shown as ethnically Dothraki.  If it's supposed to be some euphemism for the Golden Company, his skin would be described as "golden", no?

I think the point is that in order to move forward with her own political agency, she must sacrifice all the men in her life to whom she had subliminated those political desires (conveniently, three of them - Viserys, Drogo, and Rhaego).

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1 minute ago, cpg2016 said:

Right, but if it's Aegon, why does he have copper skin?  Your answer doesn't actually address that question.  He's being shown as ethnically Dothraki.  If it's supposed to be some euphemism for the Golden Company, his skin would be described as "golden", no?

I think the point is that in order to move forward with her own political agency, she must sacrifice all the men in her life to whom she had subliminated those political desires (conveniently, three of them - Viserys, Drogo, and Rhaego).

The Golden Company is represented by the sigil, the burning stallion, a homage to Bittersteel. 

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