Paid Debt Lannister Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Cersei doesn't need no spies. She is the biggest military genius in Westeros' history. Should she fight the NK, she would easily win. It is known Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 12 hours ago, SansaJonRule said: My husband and I have been arguing about this very thing since E2 and I tried to start a discussion on it last week but it wasn't approved. Casterly Rock, heck, Tyrion said Cersei would know they would attack there. But Euron catching Yara's fleet by surprise? Dunno. I can argue that one either way. On the one hand, Euron's surprise attack just seemed way too convenient. Yara is way too experienced to sail so close to shore that they could be seen by land scouts until they actually reached Dorne. And looking at the map, it doesn't seem like that would have been hard for her to do. On the other hand, it is logical that Cersei (or Jaime) would guess that Tyrell and Dorne would side with Dany. They damn sure weren't fighting for Cersei. And Cersei could have spies in Dorne that could have sent a Raven and that's how Euron intercepted Yara. At any rate, if there is a traitor in Dany's camp, I would guess Varys. No way would Tyrion betray Dany to CERSEI of all people. I saw a video commentary that suggested Missandei is actually a facless man, which sounds like rubbish to me. I'd love to hear other suggestions. Anytime you are moving 100 ships from one place to another there is a possibility of leaking. Dragonstone had some habitants and anybody could have mention that the greyjoy fleet was leaving. Another likely possibility is: Euron was at KL, and Yara was going to Dorne (Yara had to pass through KL coast first, even if she did not get close to shore). It is reasonable that Euron left KL and wait at some point South of Dragonstone waiting the fleet to move. If the unsullied had left first he might have gotten than instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Noble Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Something about Missendei is bugging me, too! However, I don't think she's a traitor. I think the perfect attack was just a result of the way the script had to go. I think they're repeating the arc Cersei had with the HS. She was on top in a SECOND then fell just as quickly. I think the authors are just trying to give us more screen time with other characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Lady Noble said: Something about Missendei is bugging me, too! However, I don't think she's a traitor. I think the perfect attack was just a result of the way the script had to go. I think they're repeating the arc Cersei had with the HS. She was on top in a SECOND then fell just as quickly. I think the authors are just trying to give us more screen time with other characters. Yes, Missandei has seemed rather smug this season, getting kind of too big for her britches. Remember how stuck up she was toward Davos when he was just trying to make friendly small talk and diffuse the tension. How was he supposed to know that the butterflies on Naath are poisonous? For that matter, has that fact been mentioned in the show, or just the books? Maybe she'll end up being a poisonous butterfly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said: Yes, Missandei has seemed rather smug this season, getting kind of too big for her britches. Remember how stuck up she was toward Davos when he was just trying to make friendly small talk and diffuse the tension. How was he supposed to know that the butterflies on Naath are poisonous? For that matter, has that fact been mentioned in the show, or just the books? Maybe she'll end up being a poisonous butterfly... Interesting, that could be an enormous foreshadow that I missed. I don't even remember the convo where poisonous butterflies were mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 4 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said: Anytime you are moving 100 ships from one place to another there is a possibility of leaking. Dragonstone had some habitants and anybody could have mention that the greyjoy fleet was leaving. Another likely possibility is: Euron was at KL, and Yara was going to Dorne (Yara had to pass through KL coast first, even if she did not get close to shore). It is reasonable that Euron left KL and wait at some point South of Dragonstone waiting the fleet to move. If the unsullied had left first he might have gotten than instead. I lean more toward no traitor in Dany's camp (yet anyway). My husband is arguing for the traitor theory. So I argued both ways to see what kind of responses I would get. As far as there being people inhabiting Dragonstone when Dany arrived, I did not get that impression at all. The show seemed to portray it as totally deserted. I know Robert gave it to Stannis, but when he left with his army, it is conceivable that the women and children moved to Storm's End because after Stannis killed Renly, he would have controlled that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Illiterati said: Interesting, that could be an enormous foreshadow that I missed. I don't even remember the convo where poisonous butterflies were mentioned. Davos just said that he heard Naath was beautiful, full of butterflies. I don't think the show has ever made mention of the fact they are poisonous, but with the more obscure facts it is hard to remember if they were in the book only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 A thought.....the whole Naath/slaver symbiosis is The Night King/Westeros in microcosm. Thin the herd of humans, less pressure on CotF, less competition for resources among Westeros men. If this all ends up a post-apocalyptic society in Westeros as I think it will, then it makes sense, and GRRM told us what happens in the end with the Naath story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said: I lean more toward no traitor in Dany's camp (yet anyway). My husband is arguing for the traitor theory. So I argued both ways to see what kind of responses I would get. As far as there being people inhabiting Dragonstone when Dany arrived, I did not get that impression at all. The show seemed to portray it as totally deserted. I know Robert gave it to Stannis, but when he left with his army, it is conceivable that the women and children moved to Storm's End because after Stannis killed Renly, he would have controlled that as well. The castle was desert. But if my memory is not failing me, it was said that the island was inhabited. Which, actually make sense, people would not just leave their houses because Stannis left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 1 hour ago, King Louis II (KLII) said: The castle was desert. But if my memory is not failing me, it was said that the island was inhabited. Which, actually make sense, people would not just leave their houses because Stannis left. Anyone else remember a reference to there being inhabitants on Dragonstone. If there was, I totally missed it. I have watched every episode of the entire series at least 4 times (except S7 - only 3 so far), although admittedly if I didn't think it was important at the time it might not have stuck. Plus there are still bits of dialogue I just can't understand! Why can't Amazon have subtitles like Netflix??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 In the books, in the HOTU, she's told that she will know three treasons, once for blood, once for gold, and once for love. This isn't in the show, but it could be a clue nonetheless that there's a betrayal coming up. Of course, prophecies are tricky things. For instance, she could betray herself in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 20 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said: Maybe not to Cersei, but to Jaime? I could see it, kinda, given Tyrion's reactions to the battle. Except that betraying Dany is equivalent to betraying her to Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 The other bit of information Cersei had, the Dothraki and Unsullied seemed suspect at first. But there are logical explanations for that as well. Spies in Essos, or Dany could have mentioned them in her summons to all the Westerosi lords to try to convince them there was no point in resisting, as well as spies on Dragonstone as @King Louis II (KLII) suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 50 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said: The other bit of information Cersei had, the Dothraki and Unsullied seemed suspect at first. But there are logical explanations for that as well. Spies in Essos, or Dany could have mentioned them in her summons to all the Westerosi lords to try to convince them there was no point in resisting, as well as spies on Dragonstone as @King Louis II (KLII) suggested. Just to clarify.... I was not referring exactly to "spies", but common people that would notice that 100 ships are moving, and the word reaching KL. Regarding the inhabitants, I think it was referred to in a discussion about where Danny should land. I just don't remember if was in Danny camp, or Cersei's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said: Just to clarify.... I was not referring exactly to "spies", but common people that would notice that 100 ships are moving, and the word reaching KL. Sorry,I did get that, I just meant to use your point about people being on the island as a basis that there is then the potential for spies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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