purple-eyes

So what is going on with Dorne now?

21 posts in this topic

Doran and his son were killed. Ellaria and sand snakes ruled for a while. 

Now Ellaria and daughters were caught and died. 

Dorne still has army and people intact. 

So what would they react towards all these things?

Forget about Ellaria and sandsnakes and stay away from war?

Who will rule Dorne now? Oberyn's other bastard daughters? Are not they quite young?

IMHO, GRRM should not write Dorne from the very beginning. He said he probably should have had only five kingdoms, in stead of seven. 

I agree and I think Dorne is one of the two kingdoms which can be deleted. 

 

 

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Dorne was a giant waste of time on the show. It's done and we should all be happy.

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2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

IMHO, GRRM should not write Dorne from the very beginning. He said he probably should have had only five kingdoms, in stead of seven. 

I agree and I think Dorne is one of the two kingdoms which can be deleted. 

Agreed. I think Dorne was too poorly written in the books and it probably only makes sense in the grand scheme of things if you keep Aegon too. 

I still don't get why they decided to include it in the show. 

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Dorne is just a bunch of people holding spears, waiting for someone to tell them what to do. No ever will, so they'll just hang out until they're all dead. 

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1 hour ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

I still don't get why they decided to include it in the show. 

Boobies. 

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6 hours ago, darmody said:

Boobies. 

It's HBO, they could get boobies anywhere. I mean, they literally managed to have boobies in the High Septon/Faith Militant storyline, the most unerotic part of the story. 

Plus, it was only a pair of boobs in one episode. By HBO standards that's practically Puritan. And they cut out the most sexual character in Dorne who actually had canonical sex scenes and huge boobs/nipples. 

Even by HBO logic, their adaptation of Dorne makes no sense. 

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Bad writing is going on in Dorne. The show made Ellaria into a kinslayer usurper and then wrote her off without tying loose ends and it's up in the air as to what would happen to Sunspear and the kingdom, since their vassal houses are hardly even mentioned- Daynes are only presented as now dead Ser Arthur and Yronwoods don't seem to enter the equation. Since Cersei mentions Ellaria having more than one daughter, Tyene being her favourite, there may be another sand snake, who as the last surviving person with Martell blood may stood to inherit if she has the backing of other houses in Dorne, or there may be a civil war with various minor houses fighting for the seat. It looks like Dorne might be sitting out a war, having recently lost their leader and their fleet, since Lannister would struggle to conquer them even if they defeat Daenerys. We might never hear about Dorne again, or Riverlands for that matter. 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Agreed. I think Dorne was too poorly written in the books and it probably only makes sense in the grand scheme of things if you keep Aegon too. 

I still don't get why they decided to include it in the show. 

Dorne was not poorly written at all.  AFFC has four chapters allotted to Dorne and they are very rich.  And there was a whole story with Prince Doran scheming to avenge Elia and her children, then the San Snakes wanted vengeance for the Red Viper, then ultimately, Doran split all the San Snakes up according to their talents to go out and do just this.... but on the sly. 

We only heard yet briefly of what Seralla is doing in Old Town (posing as a male to learn there).

Then there is an entire side-plot in WOW chapters where Arianne is going up to treat with Jon Connington and it seems pretty perilous.

No, it is not the books at all that have a problem with Dorne.  The show planned on fleshing out Dorne when they introduced the Red Viper then after that season, they had decided to end the show and Dorne could not be fleshed out any longer.  The Iron Islands got the same treatment but not as bad since Theon has been in the show since the beginning. 

Right at the time Arianne would have been introduced, Dorne had been chopped.

I was mad how badly tho the Sand Snakes were portrayed.  None of those 3 ladies were the daughters of Ellaria.  And Ellaria in the books is the one telling them to STOP with the revenge, not pushing it forward.  bastardization

Edited by Iron Mother

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3 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Dorne was not poorly written at all.  AFFC has four chapters allotted to Dorne and they are very rich.  And there was a whole story with Prince Doran scheming to avenge Elia and her children, then the San Snakes wanted vengeance for the Red Viper, then ultimately, Doran split all the San Snakes up according to their talents to go out and do just this.... but on the sly. 

We only heard yet briefly of what Seralla is doing in Old Town (posing as a male to learn there).

Then there is an entire side-plot in WOW chapters where Arianne is going up to treat with Jon Connington and it seems pretty perilous.

No, it is not the books at all that have a problem with Dorne.  The show planned on fleshing out Dorne when they introduced the Red Viper then after that season, they had decided to end the show and Dorne could not be fleshed out any longer.  The Iron Islands got the same treatment but not as bad since Theon has been in the show since the beginning. 

Right at the time Arianne would have been introduced, Dorne had been chopped.

I was mad how badly tho the Sand Snakes were portrayed.  None of those 3 ladies were the daughters of Ellaria.  And Ellaria in the books is the one telling them to STOP with the revenge, not pushing it forward.  bastardization

Oh, I so disagree. I think the Sand Snakes in the books are a complete joke, the embodiment of the worst, most outdated fantasy tropes. Arianne has more complexity but I don't find her particularly captivating or interesting, and she's more or less a blend of other characters' traits. And the Arys Oakheart chapter is absolutely unnecessary and bland as a soggy paper, and I'm 90% sure the reason for giving him a POV was to get the most male gaze-y scene this side of Transformers when Arianne's nipples are described in painstaking detail. But that doesn't stop people from lauding this storyline as the peak of feminist achievement, even though it literally is about a bunch of ~ emotional~ women learning to obey the "rational" man, even though his so-called "master plan" is total garbage. 

And don't even get me started on Quentyn's horrendous chapters. 

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Posted (edited)

I actually really like Dorne in the books, they have rich culture and amazing history. Always enjoyed their chapters.

but the show really butchered them..I am glad they are no longer in the plot. I think if they would have kept true to their characters and brought Arriane in then it would have a better plotline. They probably would not even mention who rules after Ellaria.

Edited by Crona

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3 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Oh, I so disagree. I think the Sand Snakes in the books are a complete joke, the embodiment of the worst, most outdated fantasy tropes. Arianne has more complexity but I don't find her particularly captivating or interesting, and she's more or less a blend of other characters' traits. And the Arys Oakheart chapter is absolutely unnecessary and bland as a soggy paper, and I'm 90% sure the reason for giving him a POV was to get the most male gaze-y scene this side of Transformers when Arianne's nipples are described in painstaking detail. But that doesn't stop people from lauding this storyline as the peak of feminist achievement, even though it literally is about a bunch of ~ emotional~ women learning to obey the "rational" man, even though his so-called "master plan" is total garbage. 

And don't even get me started on Quentyn's horrendous chapters. 

Quentyn was total shit.  I forgot about that.

The Arys/Arianne chapter was introducing Arianne.  It shows her evolution to what we see in WOW.  I found the "Queenmaker" chapter to be very intriguing setting up what would come forth of it.  And "Princess in the Tower" revealing many things and also finally getting Arianne on the same page with Doran.

The Sand Snakes in the book were I felt awesome characters as a side piece, not really as fully developed.  It really brings Oberyn to the forefront in how he raised his children.  They are simply 3 or 4 expansions OF Oberyn and Oberyn is IMO what represents Dorne.  That's why they were all so pissed at Doran (the people) and called Oberyn "our Prince" instead of Doran who was the real Prince.

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Spoiler

 

I like Dorne in THE BOOKS. I liked Oberyn, Doran & the Sand Snakes....the show's done them a disservice and IMO they're done there.

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Viper v mountain enough of a reason for Dorne to be in the show, Myrcella needed to die but rest of it was poor.

Jaime and Bronn turning up wtf.

 

What I do like about the show is how they are getting on with things cutting characters and ending archs quickly.

It might not always flow or follow its own narrative but at least the main story is advancing, something GRRM should start doing

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I LOVED Dorne in the books. Such a different, diverse place with a unique culture. A very arabian sort of feel too which as someone sort of obsessed with arab history I really liked. And they seemed by far the most progressive.

 

In the show, yeah, they just took way too many things away from it for it to be any interesting. It just felt like stereotypical "desert people" place.

 

But back on the topic of the thread, I'm head-canoning it as kingdom wide civil war or just national unrest as no one can decide who gets to rule or what should be done after losing so many rulers in such a short period of time. Doesn't make much sense that it wouldn't at least be mentioned but oh well. Not sure many people really miss it. Even my show-only friends don't seem to like it at all.

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I LOVED the IDEA of Dorne; its concept, its POTENTIAL 

But GOD DAMN I absolutely HATED the execution !!!

In the Book AND in the show !!!!

In the book: Too boring, most plot lines didnt go anywhere 

 

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On 8/10/2017 at 4:47 PM, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Oh, I so disagree. I think the Sand Snakes in the books are a complete joke, the embodiment of the worst, most outdated fantasy tropes. Arianne has more complexity but I don't find her particularly captivating or interesting, and she's more or less a blend of other characters' traits. And the Arys Oakheart chapter is absolutely unnecessary and bland as a soggy paper, and I'm 90% sure the reason for giving him a POV was to get the most male gaze-y scene this side of Transformers when Arianne's nipples are described in painstaking detail. But that doesn't stop people from lauding this storyline as the peak of feminist achievement, even though it literally is about a bunch of ~ emotional~ women learning to obey the "rational" man, even though his so-called "master plan" is total garbage. 

And don't even get me started on Quentyn's horrendous chapters. 

Preach! Could not agree more. It was painful to get through.

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On 8/10/2017 at 9:51 AM, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Bad writing is going on in Dorne. The show made Ellaria into a kinslayer usurper and then wrote her off without tying loose ends and it's up in the air as to what would happen to Sunspear and the kingdom, since their vassal houses are hardly even mentioned- Daynes are only presented as now dead Ser Arthur and Yronwoods don't seem to enter the equation. Since Cersei mentions Ellaria having more than one daughter, Tyene being her favourite, there may be another sand snake, who as the last surviving person with Martell blood may stood to inherit if she has the backing of other houses in Dorne, or there may be a civil war with various minor houses fighting for the seat. It looks like Dorne might be sitting out a war, having recently lost their leader and their fleet, since Lannister would struggle to conquer them even if they defeat Daenerys. We might never hear about Dorne again, or Riverlands for that matter. 

 

This is a problem with the show; they've minimized the ruling families of the Kingdoms as well as the Great Houses' bannermen.  Cersei and Jaime should not be the last Lannisters; but in the show, Lancel and the boys murdered by Karstark were evidently their only cousins.  They cut out two of Mace Tyrell's sons entirely, then killed him and Loras and Margaery; and apparently there no relatives (I believe there were in the books); and Tarly is the Tyrells' only bannerman.  They seem to have forgotten Edmure Tully's existence; which seems odd, since he should have been freed from confinement at either the Twins or Casterly Rock by now; and do the show's writers even care about his Frey wife and supposed infant son?  At least they remembered that the Starks and Arryns had bannermen...

Didn't Oberyn tell Cersei that he had eight daughters?  If so, where are the other five?  I would think that an ambitious lord or lady of Dorne (maybe Lord Uller, Ellaria's dad in the books) would have seized the oldest and declared her Princess of Dorne under a regency.   I guess Dorne is just going to disappear on the show; which is very sloppy - Cersei could have mentioned what's happening there in a line or two.

 

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11 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

This is a problem with the show; they've minimized the ruling families of the Kingdoms as well as the Great Houses' bannermen.  Cersei and Jaime should not be the last Lannisters; but in the show, Lancel and the boys murdered by Karstark were evidently their only cousins.  They cut out two of Mace Tyrell's sons entirely, then killed him and Loras and Margaery; and apparently there no relatives (I believe there were in the books); and Tarly is the Tyrells' only bannerman.  They seem to have forgotten Edmure Tully's existence; which seems odd, since he should have been freed from confinement at either the Twins or Casterly Rock by now; and do the show's writers even care about his Frey wife and supposed infant son?  At least they remembered that the Starks and Arryns had bannermen...

Didn't Oberyn tell Cersei that he had eight daughters?  If so, where are the other five?  I would think that an ambitious lord or lady of Dorne (maybe Lord Uller, Ellaria's dad in the books) would have seized the oldest and declared her Princess of Dorne under a regency.   I guess Dorne is just going to disappear on the show; which is very sloppy - Cersei could have mentioned what's happening there in a line or two.

 

Exactly- just a couple of throwaway lines like "Edmure Tully and his wife are no longer our hostages, Lord Jaime" and "The Dorne is under control of Lord Uller and the Red Vipers bastard daughter" and boom, the issue is resolved. I can understand why the numerous people had to be cut from the show, and characters were merged, but Dorne and The Reach became ridiculous in the writers attempt to wrap up the storylines - even the whole issue with Ellaria becoming a kinslaying usurper could be avoided by Doran dying of natural causes (a frail, gouty old man) and Trystane being poisoned by Cersei, which in books is suggested as possibility. It would give Ellaria a better claim to the Dorne control, as a regent of a surviving Martel heirs, and give extra fire to their drive to vengeance without becoming second most hated characters after Freys.

That makes me kind of apprehensive of the books in a way- we get more and more chapters that refer to places like Dorne, and yet the show has written them out, which suggests that in the end, Dorne wouldn't play a major role in the story, at least not in the end. I hope that I am wrong, and the writers are known to deviate from GRRM canon, like cutting out Stoneheart, but still, the possibility is there. Not to mention the fact that we're unlikely to see the release of the final book anyway, I've started reading the books in 2014 and three years on, there is no news, so I can only imagine how bad it must be for those who had to wait for the last two books. The show may be the only resolution we get and even then it's only a streamlined version with many bits cut out. 

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My biggest problem w the show story of Dorne, is the lack of anyone else in Dorne. If they aren't one of the 7 or so Dorne characters we meet, they don't exist. As far as the social rules and norms of Westeros, if a bastard lover of a dead second son murders his older brother, that DOES NOT put that bastard lover in charge of the kingdom! Haha! Silly! 

Where are the Yronwoods? Are there zero other noble houses that would rather rule Dorne themselves instead of being ruled by Ellaria? In the show, I guess not....

And yes, of course now we have to wonder where that entire army disappeared to.

Spoiler

I guess without a leader Danny could try to bring them in the same way that she seems to be bringing in those Lannister soldiers in the preview. 

 

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Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

Where are the Yronwoods? Are there zero other noble houses that would rather rule Dorne themselves instead of being ruled by Ellaria? In the show, I guess not....

And yes, of course now we have to wonder where that entire army disappeared to.

  Hide contents

I guess without a leader Danny could try to bring them in the same way that she seems to be bringing in those Lannister soldiers in the preview. 

 

You could ask the same of Daynes, Hightowers, Redwynes (kin to Tyrells, so unlikely to have supported Tarly against Olenna), Ullers, most of Riverlords-Mallisters were acknowledged at some point, but apart from Tully's and Freys, there seem to be no others left in Riverlands, and the last surviving Tully is MIA. 

 

Wasn't Dorne notoriously hard to conquer even at the height of Targaryen power- the only way they managed to bring them in is by wedding Daeron to Myriah Martell, and his sister Daenerys to Marron Martell? Not that this would stop the show from steamrolling Dorne into the fold if needs be, wouldn't be the first time they went against what GRRM wrote.

 

Edited by Princess_of_Sunspear

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