Matthew.wu1997

Theories about Jaime Lannister

52 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hi guys, after watching episode 4, I believe that Jaime is half blood Targaryen, Azor Ahai and the third head of the dragon. Here are the reasons, some of them have discussed before, I hope you have patience to read them all.

1. Not like Tywin, both Jaime and Cersei have incredible beauty, and Cersei show hints that she loves flames and used them to kill enemies. Also,they have an uncontrollable affection between each other and they incest,which is not a strange thing in Targaryen tradition. It's said that "When a Targaryen is born, the gods flip the coin" Jaime and Cersei represent the two opposite personality of Targaryen, great or mad. They are children of the mad king and Joanna Lannister, the wife of Tywin. However , Tyrion has wits and a sharp tongue just like Tywin. He is a true Lannister although his father refused to admit it and despised him cause his ugly looks and disgrace he brought to his family name . Tywin could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most. It would be ironic yet dramatic that both Jaime and Tyrion killed their own father. Jaime once dreamed about his mother Joanna (it's in the book), her eyes were green, her hair spun gold just like the twins, and she told him "We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.” This indicated that Tywin was wrong, although Jaime and Cersei became mighty knight and queen, the biggest irony is that they are not his children at all. And his only son,Tyrion, brought him not glory but shame(in his point of view)

2.According to prophecy, "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers,He shall be born again amidst smoke and salt" matches when he fall into water in a burning battle field . The bleeding red star is the injured drogon(it's dark red, flying and heating like a star), and darkness is the doomed atmosphere and the heavy smoke. Salt probably means water or the tears shedded from the dying soldiers

3."He shall draw from the fire a burning sword, Lightbringer" remember that his sword and Brienne's sword are a pair of valyrian swords melted and reforged from Ned Stark's "ICE". Although Joffrey defiled  and named one of them "widow's wail", it's not the sword's true name . Brienne's sword is called Oathkeeper , anyone notice that it's parallelism with Lightbringer? The bonds between the two is strong, so does the knights who hold them. Actually, Jaime's another dream (not in the show as well), did show that he and Brienne were holding flaming swords, and they were going to fight the "doom" in the darkness. I believe one day Oathkeeper and Lightbringer will fight together against the common enemy, and fulfill it's glorious mission. 

4. According to the prophecy again, in order to made his sword , Azor Ahai captured a lion and tried to drove the sword into its heart, but the sword shattered. The lion is tyrion, and he was in dungeon, about to die. But Jaime hesitated and changed his mind. He let him go. Finally , Azor Ahai drove the sword into his wife Nissa Nissa's heart and the Lightbringer was made. Cersei is  Nissa Nissa, by killing her , Jaime will finally become the hero he should be

5.In the Valyrian dictionary, Valyrian words for lord and light are "aeksio" and "onos". But Valyrian words for gold and hand are "aeksion" and "ondos" . Maybe the words become slightly different due to ages of mistranslation, if so, it's a big hint telling that Jaime may save the day

6.Here's another proof I just discovered: Melisandre also predicted that Azor Ahai will "wake dragon(s) out of stone" (Melisandre talked of the stone dragon in both the singular and the plural). Do you recall any character had said similar things before? Viserys. He warned Dany not to wake the dragon. Although he was not a dragon at all, it indicated that it is a figure of speech, "dragon" can be a person. Then who is the stone dragon ? A dragon waken from "STONE", Jaime Lannister from Casterly "ROCK" !!!  What's more, Lannister's leaders called themselves "King of the Rock" before Aegon's conquest.  A vision Dany had in the House of Undying also tells that "from a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire". Jaime is half Targaryen half Lannister, "the stone beast took wing" perfectly explains that he will transform from a lion into a dragon. Shadow and fire are two main symbols of the Red God as well.He will finally know who he really is, Targaryen blood flows through his body, realizing that he should take responsibility for saving the world, he will abandon his duty as a Lannister, and become Azor Ahai the hero, a true dragon. (The reason why Melisandre's prediction sometimes say "stone dragons" is that Cersei is actually a Targaryen living in Casterly Rock as well, but she probably won't wake up from the dark side and become a hero)

Jaime has the most complex yet interesting character in GOT, he has gone through things much more than Jon and Dany, he killed his own king, despised by the Starks, only to save Kingslanding from wildfire, and I think he will fight white walkers till the end of his life to save the whole kingdom. He is the "Severus Snape" in this story. Saving Westeros from fire and ice, he could be another meaning of "The Song of Ice and Fire"

Please comment below if you have any doubts

Sources: the internet ,my imagination

Edited by Matthew.wu1997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to go into detail trying to disprove each and every point, so I am just going to mention one thing I think was glaringly obvious from the last episode that he isn't a Targaryen.

Jaime saw Daenerys attending Drogon's injury, she was wide open. Jaime took a spear, charged head on to take her out. Drogon noticed and shot fire straight at Jaime, with the intention to kill.

Yes, Drogon would obviously protect Daenerys, but if Jaime was the blood of the dragon and if there is a connection between all Targaryens and all dragons, then there surely would have been a reluctance for Drogon to try and kill Jaime, who would be Daenerys' kin?

Drogon didn't as much as hesitate; as soon as he saw Jaime, he went to kill him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 In the Dance of the Dragons, a civil war of the Targaryen, Rhaenyra Targaryen was roasted and eaten alive by her brother's dragon, Sunfyre. I don't believe that dragons can recognize Targaryen blood without any physical interaction. Even Daenerys took a great deal of time and effort to make Drogon listen to her commands, let alone Jaime was a clearly a threat to them at that time. And Dragons had lived in the wild for a long time before Valyrians (including Targaryens) learned to tame them. They were not born together into this world, there could be bonds between them, but not strong enough to recognize a hostile man it never met before.

About the "Tyrion patting dragons" scene in the show, I don't think it ever happened in the books. I think the plot only wants to show that dragons are intelligent creatures which are able to be grateful for the help, not to imply that Tyrion is half blood Targaryen. In the books, it was actually quentyn martell (didn't appear in the show) went into dungeon, trying to tame Viserion, at the beginning it went smoothly and successfully until he turned his back to Rhaegal, (it's dangerous to turn your back to any dangerous animals, because you show your weakest part of your body) and Rhaegal burnt him , causing his death.

Edited by Matthew.wu1997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't want to go into detail trying to disprove each and every point, so I am just going to mention one thing I think was glaringly obvious from the last episode that he isn't a Targaryen.

Jaime saw Daenerys attending Drogon's injury, she was wide open. Jaime took a spear, charged head on to take her out. Drogon noticed and shot fire straight at Jaime, with the intention to kill.

Yes, Drogon would obviously protect Daenerys, but if Jaime was the blood of the dragon and if there is a connection between all Targaryens and all dragons, then there surely would have been a reluctance for Drogon to try and kill Jaime, who would be Daenerys' kin?

Drogon didn't as much as hesitate; as soon as he saw Jaime, he went to kill him.

I am not convinced about the theory, at all (although , kudos for the OP research...!!!!), but I think a Dragon can defend his "owner" from another Targaryan. Targaryans fought each other before (Dance of Dragons)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think that if they were to go down that road, as directors and writers trying to leave subtle hints and clues, they may have had a shot where Drogon had a moment's hesitation over going to kill Jaime. Something for the viewers to see and latch onto, as if Jaime was blood of the dragon, this would be a rare moment a dragon and another Targaryen shared the scene.

D&D tend to produce very unsubtle hints and clues, such as moments like the conversation between Davos, Jon and Missandei over the meaning of a bastard, so for them to not show any sign that Jaime is a Targaryen in a scene he comes face to face with one as good as rules it out, for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Maybe it did hesitate for a moment, otherwise that horse wouldn't run that close before it get roasted. XD

Or maybe it's still a secret they want to keep throughout season 7, they want to unveil in season 8 to make a huge surprise for the great ending. If drogon hesitates, it would be too obvious don't you think?

Edited by Matthew.wu1997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Maybe not hesitation on dragon's part but intentionally "miss" not to burn him and only to make him fall into water.

Edited by Deminelle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Dance of Dragons is proof enough that dragons can fight and kill members of their riders family.  Drogon attempting to kill Jamie doesn't disprove this theory.

The only issue I have is the logistics putting Aerys and Joanna together nine months before the birth of Jamie and Cersei.  I don't have TWoIaF with me right now, but I have extensively researched the lead-up to Robert's Rebellion and the events that lead to the death of the Mad King.  If I remember correctly, Joanna was dismissed by Rhaella and returned to Casterly Rock and there was no mention of the King going there until several years later, after their birth.  I know he took court there, but I think that was after Jamie and Cersei and before Tyrion was born.

I might be wrong, can someone take a look at that?  I think it was around pages 105-115 (ish).

It's a very interesting and well thought out theory regardless.  Kudos!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Thank for your comment "DarkBastard" lol

About your concern, Joanna married Tywin in Sept of Baelor in 263AC, and "shortly after"(maybe a year or two) the ceremony she was dismissed by queen Rhaella Targaryen from her service as a Queen's maiden. When Joanna gave birth to Jaime and Cersei in 266AC, Aerys ordered Tywin to bring the twins to Kingslanding as soon as they are old enough to travel. It's a little bit strange don't you think? It's more than meets the eye. Aerys was curious about the kids and he wanted to see them, and he also cared about their health, didn't want them to get sick due to long travel. Why would a bad tempered person care about children that was not his? Years later, Aerys insulted Joanna by asking her if nursing her children had ruined her breasts when Joanna arrived at Kingslanding again. It's a very indelicate joke, but it could also implied that he had seen hers before. Seeing the happy marriage between Joanna and Tywin, Aerys was jealous and not reconciled, that's why he would say that , doing more harm to Joanna by a blue joke mentioning the twins of theirs.

Let's presume the wedding is in December in 263AC, after a year and a few months(it is a short time  in my opinion), maybe in March,265AC they had sexual affair, it's possible to gave birth to the twins in 266AC

Edited by Matthew.wu1997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Tyrion is the only possible connection to Aerys, as she was at court "within a year" before his birth and her subsequent death (272-273 AC)

I know Jamie and Cersei were born in 266, and Joanna was dismissed shortly after her marriage to Tywin in 263...so there's a two to three year gap in which there is no mention of her coming to court...at least not that I can remember.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He saw her during the bedding ceremony after their wedding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

I think Tyrion is the only possible connection to Aerys, as she was at court "within a year" before his birth and her subsequent death (272-273 AC)

I know Jamie and Cersei were born in 266, and Joanna was dismissed shortly after her marriage to Tywin in 263...so there's a two to three year gap in which there is no mention of her coming to court...at least not that I can remember.

I don't think Joanna would let Aerys touch her anymore after he insulted her like that , if he raped her, I'm sure she would try to abort the baby or even commit suicide by fair means or foul. It's a very serious issue, a noble, good and kind women like Joanna could never stand a humiliation like that. I think the only motivation to keep her from killing herself after Aerys' affront is that she knew she needed to bear a child for Tywin cause she loved him so much and it's her duty as well. So after the birth of Tyrion, she passed away.

Edited by Matthew.wu1997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

He saw her during the bedding ceremony after their wedding.

 

46 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

I think Tyrion is the only possible connection to Aerys, as she was at court "within a year" before his birth and her subsequent death (272-273 AC)

I know Jamie and Cersei were born in 266, and Joanna was dismissed shortly after her marriage to Tywin in 263...so there's a two to three year gap in which there is no mention of her coming to court...at least not that I can remember.

We don't know how "shortly" it was, GRRM didn't write the exact year she left, making the whole incident unclear and subtle

As I previously mentioned, let's presume the wedding was in December in 263AC, after a year and a few months(it is a short time  in my opinion), maybe in March,265AC they had sexual affair, it's possible to give birth to the twins in January 266AC

Edited by Matthew.wu1997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

i was thinking the exact same thing just now, and ya put it out there for me.

although waking dragons out of stone, could just as easily be jaime causing dany to stop sitting around dragon stone and attack his lannister army which we just saw.

born amidst salt and smoke, again we just saw him in a battle with alot of smoke, and drowning in salt water.

 

Edited by ImNoSer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a new theory.

 

Everyone in Westeros is a secret Targaryan.  The Battle of the Three Million Kings is forthcoming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I think targ Jamie/Cersei or Tyrion are two good theories and both make sense in their own ways - if the dates match up, which makes more sense for Tyrion.

 

If Jamie/Cersei are targs, it explains their incest and Cersei's madness, while also being tragic for Tywin as Tyrion is his only son, a bohemian imp, instead of the beautiful and powerful knight and queen. For Tywin, it would be the ultimate humiliation and explains his feelings for Tyrion.

 

On the other hand a targ Tyrion explains his fascination with dragons, his purple eye and very whitish hair. This also explains why Tywin also despises Tyrion, he is not his son but it would be too much of an humiliation (and the destruction of all the respect he gathered) to admit someone like him couldn't protect his wife.

 

For now I think the later theory has more possibilities of being true, but with more info it may turn out to be a red herring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ya i dont think theres any more secret targs. thats just non sense fan worship of targs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ImNoSer said:

i was thinking the exact same thing just now, and ya put it out there for me.

although waking dragons out of stone, could just as easily be jaime causing dany to stop sitting around dragon stone and attack his lannister army which we just saw.

born amidst salt and smoke, again we just saw him in a battle with alot of smoke, and drowning in salt water.

 

I think Melisandre's stone dragon prophecy means more because Dany saw the same vision in the House of Undying as well, the "stone beast" vision came up with other visions like "blue rose on the wall" (Jon Snow), "blue eyed king without a shadow"(Stannis Baratheon)… etc. Since Dany was the one who was watching those visions, "stone beast/dragon" probably won't have anything to do with her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Matthew.wu1997 said:

I don't think Joanna would let Aerys touch her anymore after he insulted her like that , if he raped her, I'm sure she would try to abort the baby or even commit suicide by fair means or foul. It's a very serious issue, a noble, good and kind women like Joanna could never stand a humiliation like that. I think the only motivation to keep her from killing herself after Aerys' affront is that she knew she needed to bear a child for Tywin cause she loved him so much and it's her duty as well. So after the birth of Tyrion, she passed away.

Totally agree, I don't buy into the theory that Tyrion is a Targaryen...just using it as a reference with regard to logistics.  

I'm not saying your theory is wrong, anything is possible.  I concede it is plausible that the "short time" is subjective in the way you indicate, but my thought is that the "liberties" Aerys took with Joanna during the bedding led to the dismissal...and that would have accelerated the timeline.  All just speculation though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Camara said:

Yeah I think targ Jamie/Cersei or Tyrion are two good theories and both make sense in their own ways - if the dates match up, which makes more sense for Tyrion.

 

If Jamie/Cersei are targs, it explains their incest and Cersei's madness, while also being tragic for Tywin as Tyrion is his only son, a bohemian imp, instead of the beautiful and powerful knight and queen. For Tywin, it would be the ultimate humiliation and explains his feelings for Tyrion.

 

On the other hand a targ Tyrion explains his fascination with dragons, his purple eye and very whitish hair. This also explains why Tywin also despises Tyrion, he is not his son but it would be too much of an humiliation (and the destruction of all the respect he gathered) to admit someone like him couldn't protect his wife.

 

For now I think the later theory has more possibilities of being true, but with more info it may turn out to be a red herring.

As far as I can remember, Tyrion eyes color are actually green and black in the books, not violet or purple like you mentioned. His green eye is one of Lannister common features, as for the other black eye, I think he inherited from his ancestors, cause black eyes are not rare at all, and chances are high that Lannisters have marriage with any black eye women from other houses. Actually, Tywin's eye color "green mixed with gold" is not common as well.

Tyrion's dreams about dragons in childhood match his current situation. He is advising a true dragon right now, he is the hand of the dragon queen. Being with dragons, I think this prophetic dream has already come true, leaving nothing more to explain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now