Eddard Scissorhands

Jaime the military commander and the ambush

18 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Jaime and Bronn and everyone else in the Lannister caravan really, were thoroughly surprised and overwhelmed by the Dothraki horde attack. They only heard them coming when they were at a close enough distance. 

 

This is in direct contrast with S06E07, when Jaime tells the Freys that because they didn't set a proper perimeter, they just allowed 8,000 men to approach unchallenged. Obviously the Dothraki were all on horseback and move differently and quicker than a group of marching Westerosi soldiers. But if the Lannisters had at least a bunch of scouts scanning the perimeter, they could have spotted and reported the enemy approaching ahead of time. Probably they still wouldn't have had enough time to either retreat or call for reinforcements. The Lannisters would have still lost the battle, but they would have at least seen it coming and thus perhaps assemble in a slightly better way and less rushed.  Of course there's the chance that all scouts were intercepted, captured or killed. Which in turn, depending on the timeline, would have at least raised suspicion. 

I know that there are probably different possibilities that I am not aware of where it's plausible how Dany's soldiers snuck their way through the Reach, unnoticed until the very last moment. Also maybe worth noting is that not all of this was perhaps in Jaime's hands (!) to begin with, but all above also applies to Randyll Tarly, who is reputed to be an exceptionally capable battle commander. 

Still, I think it's almost tragically ironic how Jaime's army got ambushed by such a large and detectable force, seemingly without him having any clue beforehand whatsoever. 

Any thoughts?

 

 

ps. I noticed afterwards that some of this was loosely discussed in another thread about the geography. This topic is a bit more specifically geared towards Jaime's previous remark and how that mindset may or may not have affected this specific situation.

Edited by Eddard Scissorhands

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I agree. It seems unlikely that two experienced military commanders would be thoroughly caught off guard.

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The only explanation I can think of, is that the scouts were ran down and burned by a dragon.

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yeah at the very least they should have had an hours warning or something from a nearby scout. Instead they just show up out of thin air it seemed like. Even if the ships weren't seen (it would have to be alot) the scouts or a someone else should have seen a few thousand horseman galloping across the land.

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Scouts, outriders, van- or sternguards or even camp guards do not exist on the show for inexplicable reasons. Same reason Olenna Tyrell only knows she's under attack by looking out her window :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Scouts, outriders, van- or sternguards or even camp guards do not exist on the show for inexplicable reasons. Same reason Olenna Tyrell only knows she's under attack by looking out her window :rolleyes:

I agree. It is like the knights of the Vale arriving to turn the tide in the battle of the Basterds which was a joyfull moment and very cool. But in episode "The Door" Littlefinger tells Sansa that knights made camp at Moat Cailin. I was thinking "WHAT THE ...".

Ramsay and Roose talked about the Ironborn that held Moat Cailin, and prevented Roose's army to return to the North and Ramsay' forces in the North lacked the strenght to retake Moat Cailin. So they used Theon. 

This should mean that Moat Cailin was held by Bolton forces and any sane military commander would leave a garrison in an important fortification and crossroad.

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It makes no sense. I think we just need to accept that the show will make nonsense plot twists like this for the purpose of dramatics.

What they achieved with it, in my opinion, is the very good build up to the battle with Lannisters and especially Jaime and Bronn listening to nearing thunder wondering what will appear from the horizon. Then even more importantly the couple of seconds after "We can hold them off".

The show has been toying with dragons in many ways. One of the most important of them, in my opinion, is the "are they real? And if they are real, are they the cat sized version or the Black Dread version?" The moment Drogon drops from the clouds for a main character that Jaime is, to see, is the moment one of the big theme of the series ends.

I think it is stupid to write in a way that Jaime and Randyll Tarly are caught with their pants down. It is not realistic at all, and it diminishes their characters in a real way. However, for the reason above, I personally think it was worth it for the show since so much of what is available in the books can't be done and there is no time.

If it happens in the books even remotely in the same way, I will be pissed off.

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26 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

It makes no sense. I think we just need to accept that the show will make nonsense plot twists like this for the purpose of dramatics.

What they achieved with it, in my opinion, is the very good build up to the battle with Lannisters and especially Jaime and Bronn listening to nearing thunder wondering what will appear from the horizon. Then even more importantly the couple of seconds after "We can hold them off".

The show has been toying with dragons in many ways. One of the most important of them, in my opinion, is the "are they real? And if they are real, are they the cat sized version or the Black Dread version?" The moment Drogon drops from the clouds for a main character that Jaime is, to see, is the moment one of the big theme of the series ends.

I think it is stupid to write in a way that Jaime and Randyll Tarly are caught with their pants down. It is not realistic at all, and it diminishes their characters in a real way. However, for the reason above, I personally think it was worth it for the show since so much of what is available in the books can't be done and there is no time.

If it happens in the books even remotely in the same way, I will be pissed off.

Good points. But you could've had much the same effect (the reveal of the dragons and their military potential) by having the Lannister / Tarly army forewarned by scouts and prepared for the charging Dothraki, in which case it would've been far from a foregone conclusion that the Dothraki would win. Then have Dany arrive at the scene, and the rest continues as-is. You get the same oh-shit-dragons moment, and if anything it makes the extreme advantage that magical flying artillery even more obvious.

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4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Good points. But you could've had much the same effect (the reveal of the dragons and their military potential) by having the Lannister / Tarly army forewarned by scouts and prepared for the charging Dothraki, in which case it would've been far from a foregone conclusion that the Dothraki would win. Then have Dany arrive at the scene, and the rest continues as-is. You get the same oh-shit-dragons moment, and if anything it makes the extreme advantage that magical flying artillery even more obvious.

I agree. It would have made a more complex scene though. Some things that were really oomph-good in this version such as humanisation of Rickon Dickon were very clever. It, too, could have been done but this way they got it very compressed and underlined it with his look at the sight of where Drogon had first struck.

I guess, I have for the most part "given up" and I am just enjoying the show as a spectacle. I do hope George actually concentrates on what he should do, instead of running around the globe meeting young girls fans in Finland f.ex., so we will actually get the proper story in the end.

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Posted (edited)

The Rickon/Dickon scene was probably to show how bad they were at scouting. Lady Olenna was upset because Tyrells weren't really good at fighting, they were all about roses. Dickon didn't learn much from them.

Edited by Deminelle

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In defence of Jaime, he was dealing with stragglers with his main objective (and presumably bulk of the forces) on the other side of the river already. His outriders would be probably focusing on covering the other avenues of approach to King's Landing ferries. Tough not having patrols(even foot) on nearest hills was definitely a blunder. Then again so is defense of Highgarden (I mean even with most of Reach throwing their lot with Tarly a major  castle can hold of for a long time with a small garrison) and so is sudden appearance of Euron's fleet off the Rock.

Tactically though... It makes more sense. You have a wagon train stretched along a road, you have limited forces to maintain patrols and you keep them around the high value targets. Heck, the Lannister forces were able to make a line three deep - that is pitiful compared to proper pike blocks. Even so, only one line out of three had spears and held them... Not effectively. So... Stragglers overextended the force and the screen outpaced them (which is a mistake, but one you might have to make), leaving the stragglers open to a sudden cavalry rush. 

Re. more advanced warning, if there was raven to King's Landing, the force would have been alerted. Gold already was inside the walls - so someone would be able to send a dispatch rider forth.

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The biggest error and poor reflection on both Jaime and Randyl Tarley's supposed military acumen is "form a line".  

It is the most basic standard of battle field tactics that foot do not form a line against horse on an open field. 

if the line is broken the horse penetrate the line and can attack from behind and along the back of the line.

Infantry or foot should form squares against cavalry or horse

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I think having them know the dothraki charge was coming and had less then an hour to prepare  for it but they hadn't seen the dragons coming would have been great. It would have made the dragon even more epic because it would show just how devastating it is even with a well prepared army. And it would have been more realistic

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14 minutes ago, pogo said:

The biggest error and poor reflection on both Jaime and Randyl Tarley's supposed military acumen is "form a line".  

It is the most basic standard of battle field tactics that foot do not form a line against horse on an open field. 

if the line is broken the horse penetrate the line and can attack from behind and along the back of the line.

Infantry or foot should form squares against cavalry or horse

That was a proper maneauver and while it isn't easy to see if you look carefully the line when on for a long ways and it wasn't all an open field. A shield wall is a legitamate and very real tactic against cavalry charges and was devastating

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13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Scouts, outriders, van- or sternguards or even camp guards do not exist on the show for inexplicable reasons. Same reason Olenna Tyrell only knows she's under attack by looking out her window :rolleyes:

True. :D

 

I think I saw in the Inside the Episode that the director and or producers cited among others the Western movie genre as inspiration. Perhaps this is why we get Bronn detecting the charge with his hearing and by sensing ground vibrations I guess. 

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As far as scouts go...

There may have been scouts out but the Dothraki are light cavalry and the only thing that is faster are race horses.  Add to this the mounted archers in the Dothraki probably shot any scouts or anyone on or near a horse on their approach.  Also, Danny could have burnt any that were getting away.  We don't know.  The end result is the same as having no scouts because they were not sufficient.

 

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On 8/14/2017 at 2:16 AM, Eddard Scissorhands said:

True. :D

 

I think I saw in the Inside the Episode that the director and or producers cited among others the Western movie genre as inspiration. Perhaps this is why we get Bronn detecting the charge with his hearing and by sensing ground vibrations I guess. 

Heh, maybe this is why they try to paint the Dothraki as "the noble savage" too, even though they're anything but noble

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7 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Heh, maybe this is why they try to paint the Dothraki as "the noble savage" too, even though they're anything but noble

Bingo

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