What's the deal with Ice? Functional or ceremonial?

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

First off, I want to say that I wish I could check this myself but my books are in storage along with the bulk of my library that I'm not reading (moving house) and the Wiki isn't super detailed. 

So Yeah, I was watching this video by Shad (a Medievalist on YouTube) where he discusses why the show's Ice is a longsword not a greatsword. In the comments, a debate ensued over the details of Ice.

My memory of the sword in the books is that it is 4 centuries old, WAS a functional weapon, but wasn't always used by the Lord Stark, and that it was a greatsword with an obscenely wide blade.

Am I right? Some in the comments made various claims from "Ned never used it because it was for ceremony only", "Ned as the second son never received the right martial arts training to use it" (he would have needed specific training in greatsword forms), and "Ned did use it but not always due to its impractical size/weight". Are any or all of these true to the books? Also, if anyone finds anything on what sort of armour Ned typically wore in combat (from the books not the silly coat of plates that all northerners wear in the show) I'd appreciate a quote and chapter reference so I can go back and read once I've finished moving house.

[Jordan La Cabra]

I always believed it to be a greatsword, as that was always how it was referred to in the books. I remember - I think it was in Bran's opening chapter in aGoT - him thinking of Ice as being as wide as a man's hand and as tall as Robb, who was fourteen years old, at that point.

Taking that into account, I can't imagine it being too practical to use in battle. When Ned is thinking of Robert battling with his warhammer, he mentions that he could hardly even lift Robert's warhammer. I know it would be a lot heavier than Ice, but it suggests Ned may prefer something more light and mobile in battle. Perhaps Ice was saved for execution.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

42 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I always believed it to be a greatsword, as that was always how it was referred to in the books. I remember - I think it was in Bran's opening chapter in aGoT - him thinking of Ice as being as wide as a man's hand and as tall as Robb, who was fourteen years old, at that point.

Taking that into account, I can't imagine it being too practical to use in battle. When Ned is thinking of Robert battling with his warhammer, he mentions that he could hardly even lift Robert's warhammer. I know it would be a lot heavier than Ice, but it suggests Ned may prefer something more light and mobile in battle. Perhaps Ice was saved for execution.

I disagree regarding practicality based on dimensions. A child's hand width and circa 5'6 (a young man) would be pretty small for a greatsword. I mean, I have seen reproductions in museums and artwork that indicate greatswords were frequently taller than a man in full plate from tip to pommel (so at least 5'6" up to just under six feet). I am a tall guy and would find it pretty easy to carry or hold a piece of steel that size (I mean 16 pound sledge hammers and axes aren't that cumbersome). Also, having watched reenactments, the speed of a greatsword is not to be sniffed at.

Thanks for the comment but was more looking for quotes or details rather than speculation of Ned's fighting style (understandably there will always be a level of speculation as we only have one book with Ned in and he doesn't do much fighting). What I am really itching to find out is whether Ice was specifically ceremonial or was used sparingly due to the need for different fighting styles.

 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Jordan is correct taller than Robb

"Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night" Cat 1 GoT

[Jordan La Cabra]

It's also as wide as a man's hand, not a child's. Ned himself was never described as being a tall man; he was described as being shorter and leaner than his elder brother Brandon, who I gathered was a stall and strong man. I'd guess Ned was around 5'10/11 - average height for a man.

Robb was fourteen at the time of Bran's description of Ice, but I don't imagine him being tall for his age, considering Joffrey was a few years younger and also taller. Perhaps he was 5'4 and Ice 5'5, thereabouts. With Ned likely only being 5/6 inches taller than the sword and not carrying much muscle mass, it may well have been a struggle for him to use consistently in battle. A few swings of that and he may tire, which leads me to believe it was mainly used for executional purposes and rarely seen on the battlefield.

[TMIFairy]

Wasn't Valyrian steel lighter than regular steel?

Reanactors have told me that medieval steel was lighter than contemporary steel - not something I can verify so I take their word for it

 

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I also still have trouble with the "Ned was too weak" argument. I mean unless it was getting past 20 pounds I can't see it being too unwieldy for a seasoned warrior in his prime. That said, I am presupposing battles in westeros resemble the broken up affairs of out history instead of an hour's long brawl. 

Either way, as a greatsword it wouldn't be practical for daily defence but I'm intrigued where people came up with it's ceremonial only function. By it's description it sounds pretty typical if a bit on the broad side. Worth noting also is that weapons like a greatsword or warhammer aren't great if you are wearing casual clothes in an urban setting, they are battlefield weapons designed for plate wearers.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Right

"Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

So ilyns new sword is the same dimensions as Ice

"Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone. "Come," he said, and the silent knight rose, smiling thinly. He enjoys this, he realized. It pleases him to humiliate me nightly. It might please him even more to kill me"

Not 100% confirmed that Ser Ilyn uses his greatsword to practise with Jaime but he is sharpening it right before their encounter.

So Ice can be used in combat it seems, also when Jon gets his bastard sword he mentions that Ned had let him handle Ice on neumorous occations, suggesting something more than just ceremonial use. (Why else would a bastard who will never weild it get several chances to play with it, certainly not just for future behedings)

[Ser Petyr Parker]

Quote

 

"Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.

...

He lifted the greatsword high above his head.

 

So it's not a child's hand it's compared to, but a man's. Remember it has enough steel in it to make two "normal" swords. And it is indeed described as a "greatsword".

However, that doesn't sound small for a great sword. 5'6 is 168 cm. From Wikipedia:

Quote

The Great sword proper were developed in the Renaissance, like the "outsized specimens" - between 90 cm and 120 cm - such as the Oakeshott type XIIa or Oakeshott type XIIIa. 

Perhaps that only refers to blade length, as 90 cm isn't very big. But even if you add a 30 cm hilt, we're still talking 150 cm.

Remember also that Valyrian steel is supposed to be lighter than normal steel, so its size isn't such a problem.

However, I don't think Ned uses Ice as a sidearm, instead using something a bit smaller. When he uses Ice, he seems to have to tell someone to bring it to him.

Quote

Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. 

Quote

"Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice."

 

When Jaime attacks him, his sword is described differently:

Quote

Ned galloped to him, bringing his longsword down on Tregar's helm.

The guy in the video also compares his swords to his height, and Ice to Sean Bean's height, in order to compare swords. But he says he's 5'9, which he thinks is "average". Sean Bean is more like 5'11, so it's not a great way to compare sizes.

I looked up the size of the Ice prop from GoT and replicas are about 144 cm, which sounds quite a bit shorter than the description in the book. So it is true that the sword is shorter in the show

But I think arguing about whether something is a "longsword" or a "great sword" is a waste of time. A great sword is just a way of describing a large longsword, as far as I can tell.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

9 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Right

"Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

So ilyns new sword is the same dimensions as Ice

"Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone. "Come," he said, and the silent knight rose, smiling thinly. He enjoys this, he realized. It pleases him to humiliate me nightly. It might please him even more to kill me"

Not 100% confirmed that Ser Ilyn uses his greatsword to practise with Jaime but he is sharpening it right before their encounter.

So Ice can be used in combat it seems, also when Jon gets his bastard sword he mentions that Ned had let him handle Ice on neumorous occations, suggesting something more than just ceremonial use. (Why else would a bastard who will never weild it get several chances to play with it, certainly not just for future behedings)

Aye. Jon as a bastards would likely have handled it only to familiarise himself with it in training not to gauge it's weight for executions. For a man who is very explicit about his swords etc he leaves huge gaps around who is trained to use what.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

3 minutes ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

So it's not a child's hand it's compared to, but a man's. Remember it has enough steel in it to make two "normal" swords. And it is indeed described as a "greatsword".

However, that doesn't sound small for a great sword. 5'6 is 168 cm. From Wikipedia:

Perhaps that only refers to blade length, as 90 cm isn't very big. But even if you add a 30 cm hilt, we're still talking 150 cm.

Remember also that Valyrian steel is supposed to be lighter than normal steel, so its size isn't such a problem.

However, I don't think Ned uses Ice as a sidearm, instead using something a bit smaller. When he uses Ice, he seems to have to tell someone to bring it to him.

 

When Jaime attacks him, his sword is described differently:

The guy in the video also compares his swords to his height, and Ice to Sean Bean's height, in order to compare swords. But he says he's 5'9, which he thinks is "average". Sean Bean is more like 5'11, so it's not a great way to compare sizes.

I looked up the size of the Ice prop from GoT and replicas are about 144 cm, which sounds quite a bit shorter than the description in the book. So it is true that the sword is shorter in the show

But I think arguing about whether something is a "longsword" or a "great sword" is a waste of time. A great sword is just a way of describing a large longsword, as far as I can tell.

Agreed. While I like shad he does nitpick. I'm really interested because it would be cool if Ice was used in combat more than just a couple times. Most warriors George describes use standard arming sword and shield combos while his PoV characters are disproportionately elites who would have access to elite weaponry such as greatswords, warhammers and armour that supports their use such as a full suit of plate. 

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

11 minutes ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

So it's not a child's hand it's compared to, but a man's. Remember it has enough steel in it to make two "normal" swords. And it is indeed described as a "greatsword".

However, that doesn't sound small for a great sword. 5'6 is 168 cm. From Wikipedia:

Perhaps that only refers to blade length, as 90 cm isn't very big. But even if you add a 30 cm hilt, we're still talking 150 cm.

Remember also that Valyrian steel is supposed to be lighter than normal steel, so its size isn't such a problem.

However, I don't think Ned uses Ice as a sidearm, instead using something a bit smaller. When he uses Ice, he seems to have to tell someone to bring it to him.

 

When Jaime attacks him, his sword is described differently:

The guy in the video also compares his swords to his height, and Ice to Sean Bean's height, in order to compare swords. But he says he's 5'9, which he thinks is "average". Sean Bean is more like 5'11, so it's not a great way to compare sizes.

I looked up the size of the Ice prop from GoT and replicas are about 144 cm, which sounds quite a bit shorter than the description in the book. So it is true that the sword is shorter in the show

But I think arguing about whether something is a "longsword" or a "great sword" is a waste of time. A great sword is just a way of describing a large longsword, as far as I can tell.

AFAIK they are often very large longswords but examples I have seen in museums and reenactments are very distinctive. They tend to have enormous guards, an unsharpened section near the haft and a very straight blade. I will need to browse some of the art of Ice I have seen, I am sure there must be some that George has okayed as representative of his Ice. 

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

Also, as to making two swords from one. Arming swords tend to be in the 1 to 2kg range (2-4.5lbs) range, so I can't see weight being anything too crazy. I mean, even if they forged two longswords from Ice, the original sword couldn't be more than 20lbs unless it was obscenely thick (which we established it wasn't due to Payne's sword),

[Ser Petyr Parker]

31 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Not 100% confirmed that Ser Ilyn uses his greatsword to practise with Jaime but he is sharpening it right before their encounter.

Jaime is:

Missing his sword hand.
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
Son of Tywin, who happens to be Hand of the King and Ser Ilyn's liege lord.

I'd take the fact he was sharpening the sword as a good sign that he wasn't about to swing it at Jaime.

[snow is the man]

3 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I always believed it to be a greatsword, as that was always how it was referred to in the books. I remember - I think it was in Bran's opening chapter in aGoT - him thinking of Ice as being as wide as a man's hand and as tall as Robb, who was fourteen years old, at that point.

Taking that into account, I can't imagine it being too practical to use in battle. When Ned is thinking of Robert battling with his warhammer, he mentions that he could hardly even lift Robert's warhammer. I know it would be a lot heavier than Ice, but it suggests Ned may prefer something more light and mobile in battle. Perhaps Ice was saved for execution.

Well Ice is valyrian steel which is far lighter then normal blades. Also swords are not as heavy as you think. Roberts war hammer was very large even for a war hammer and war hammers are a very different weapon. I have held an axe and a sword and I can tell you a sword is far lighter.

[Jordan La Cabra]

1 minute ago, snow is the man said:

Well Ice is valyrian steel which is far lighter then normal blades. Also swords are not as heavy as you think. Roberts war hammer was very large even for a war hammer and war hammers are a very different weapon. I have held an axe and a sword and I can tell you a sword is far lighter.

That is true. But I do still believe that Ned would have had another sword he used more regularly in battle than Ice. @Ser Petyr Parker made the point of Ned having a 'longsword' when Jaime attacked him. Thrashing around with Ice while on horseback would be rather difficult. I can imagine Ice being saved for a ground battle or maybe even a one on one dual.

I would imagine Ice was used when he and his men took on knights of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.

[Adam Yozza]

Ice is a greatsword and was used by Ned in battle at least once that we know off.

As posted previously, Ice is as wide as a man's hand and taller than Robb, who was fourteen at the time of this description. I'd say that puts it, pommel to tip, somewhere around 5"6 given that Robb is at best average sized for someone his age. Width of a man's hand isn't an exact messurement as the size's vary but overall no I don't think it would have been too unwieldy to use in a battle. Even if it had been made of regular steel, it would still have practical use beyond cutting heads off. Two longswords were forged from Ice, with absolutely no steel being wasted. Average weight of an arming sword is 1-2kg so the larger longsword would maybe weigh 3-4kg. Since two longswords were made from Ice, it'd probably wiegh about twice the weight of a longsword so 8kg seems a fair estimate. 8kg can easily be wielded for anextended piece of time.

Ned's situation was even easier; Ice is made of Valyrian Steel, which is far lighter than regular steel. So even if my estimate above is too low and a regular steel greatsword of that weight was too heavy for use in a fight, the Valyrian Steel factor negates that.

We have examples throught the books of characters using Greatswords in battle. GreatJon Umber uses a massive greatsword, Gregor Clegane uses a greatsword (though he wields it with one hand IIRC) and Arthur Dayne uses his greatsword Dawn at numerous times. One is against the Smiling Knight and the other; the most relevent to this discussion; is at the Tower of Joy where I believe Ned also uses Ice.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

9 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

That is true. But I do still believe that Ned would have had another sword he used more regularly in battle than Ice. @Ser Petyr Parker made the point of Ned having a 'longsword' when Jaime attacked him. Thrashing around with Ice while on horseback would be rather difficult. I can imagine Ice being saved for a ground battle or maybe even a one on one dual.

I would imagine Ice was used when he and his men took on knights of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.

Agreed. The greatsword is a very specific use case weapon. I would imagine when not in battle or on horseback, Ned would probably carry an arming sword or longsword and his squire would likely carry a shield for him. 

Did Ned have Ice at the ToJ?

 

20 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Well Ice is valyrian steel which is far lighter then normal blades. Also swords are not as heavy as you think. Roberts war hammer was very large even for a war hammer and war hammers are a very different weapon. I have held an axe and a sword and I can tell you a sword is far lighter.

I stated above that I knew how heavy swords are (I have done research  ). They are typically in the 2-3lbs range for arming swords and the 6-8lbs range for oversized two handed swords like Claymores and zweihanders (post-medieval German greatsword). Also, the point I am making (which I think you missed) is that if Ned can handle it for executions and carry/hold it but cannot lift Robert's Warhammer, I can't imagine the Ice could be any more than 10lbs. I mean, if you can smash through 3 inch masonry with a 16lb sledge hammer (which is very tiring work), I don't think Robert's Warhammer can be much heavier than that. As such, I reckon Ice would be heavy, but not so heavy as to be unpractical if trained in the correct fighting style. 

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

7 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Ice is a greatsword and was used by Ned in battle at least once that we know off.

As posted previously, Ice is as wide as a man's hand and taller than Robb, who was fourteen at the time of this description. I'd say that puts it, pommel to tip, somewhere around 5"6 given that Robb is at best average sized for someone his age. Width of a man's hand isn't an exact messurement as the size's vary but overall no I don't think it would have been too unwieldy to use in a battle. Even if it had been made of regular steel, it would still have practical use beyond cutting heads off. Two longswords were forged from Ice, with absolutely no steel being wasted. Average weight of an arming sword is 1-2kg so the larger longsword would maybe weigh 3-4kg. Since two longswords were made from Ice, it'd probably wiegh about twice the weight of a longsword so 8kg seems a fair estimate. 8kg can easily be wielded for anextended piece of time.

Ned's situation was even easier; Ice is made of Valyrian Steel, which is far lighter than regular steel. So even if my estimate above is too low and a regular steel greatsword of that weight was too heavy for use in a fight, the Valyrian Steel factor negates that.

We have examples throught the books of characters using Greatswords in battle. GreatJon Umber uses a massive greatsword, Gregor Clegane uses a greatsword (though he wields it with one hand IIRC) and Arthur Dayne uses his greatsword Dawn at numerous times. One is against the Smiling Knight and the other; the most relevent to this discussion; is at the Tower of Joy where I believe Ned also uses Ice.

I did a bit of digging into greatswords. Even enormous semi-fantasy reproductions top out at under 10lbs (less than 5kg), so I think your assumptions are pretty bang on. Even if Ice was a monster of a sword, it could be handled in certain fighting styles (afaik you just need to keep it moving to negate the weight by conserving momentum). 

I wish I had my books so I could check the ToJ dream etc. I am not certain he had Ice with him but don't hold me to it.

Anyway, it would seem that no one here is positive he used it simply for ceremonial duties as suggested in the video's comments. I would err on the side of Ned being inexperienced with the fighting forms for such a niche weapon (as some claimed), as it was intended for Brandon. However, that said, it would be somewhat odd for Ned to receive arms training only with a couple types of sword.

Nonetheless, I take it noone has found any references to Ned's preferred armour? We know for example Robert favoured full plate and a warhammer. I just feel somewhat let down by the show's costumes. I mean, could the Warden of the North really only afford one coat of plates sans mail? I mean, Robb goes to battle with a coat of plates and a tiny gorget in the show. 

I have always read George's Westeros as late 14th/early 15th century in terms of armour and melee weapons (obviously firearms aren't a thing). 

[Jordan La Cabra]

19 minutes ago, Ser Alasdair the Bard said:

Agreed. The greatsword is a very specific use case weapon. I would imagine when not in battle or on horseback, Ned would probably carry an arming sword or longsword and his squire would likely carry a shield for him. 

Did Ned have Ice at the ToJ?

 

9 minutes ago, Ser Alasdair the Bard said:

I wish I had my books so I could check the ToJ dream etc. I am not certain he had Ice with him but don't hold me to it.

 

I am unsure if there is any evidence in the texts that Ice was with Ned at the ToJ, but I'd imagine if he was coming up against Ser Arthur Dayne and his famous greatsword 'Dawn', Ned would need to have Ice with him to go toe to toe with one of the greatest swordsmen in history.