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HighAndMightyBrightness

For those who thought that the Others built the Wall

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Posted (edited)

How do you explained its relationship with the 5 Forts of Yi Ti? Some of you claimed that Men could not have been the builders of the Wall even with the help of the Children and Giants. Yet, it was likely Men (and Dragons?) who built the 5 super/mega Forts stretching across a gigantic distance.

Keep in mind that there is no indication of the 'Fire Others' building the 5 Forts. In fact, even if they do exist, the 5 Forts were built to separate Men from the cold /freezing Grey Waste. If there are 'Fire Others', they would most likely be living in Asshai right now, and the 5 Forts are useless there. What this means is that the 'Ice Others' - like the ones in Westeros - are likely the main threats in the Grey Waste. Are you going to claim that these 'Ice Others' built the 5 Forts out of fire magic?

Edited by HighAndMightyBrightness

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Interesting.

I always say of course men and giants and CotF can build a wall out of ice. It's the North, and it's winter. The one thing they have in abundance is ice. Even the seawater will freeze if it gets cold enough (note the Wall "weeps" salt tears). Harvesting ice is a real-world thing, and when you add giants, mammoths, and magical forest beings, the whole thing becomes very doable.

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Humans and others built the Wall together with help from children and giants , that's my guess.

Five forts was probably built by someone who had dragons. The five forts are similar to valyrian stone so i think the forts was built by the ancient proto valyrian lords. 

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We know for a fact how it was built. It was built by the humans, children of the forrest and the giants by cutting large blocks of ice and stacking them.

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8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

(note the Wall "weeps" salt tears)

I don't remember reading salt anywhere. Are you sure?

1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

We know for a fact how it was built. It was built by the humans, children of the forrest and the giants by cutting large blocks of ice and stacking them.

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

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37 minutes ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I don't remember reading salt anywhere. Are you sure?

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

The world of ice and fire book says they took ice from the lakes.

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1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The world of ice and fire book says they took ice from the lakes.

TWOAIF is through a maesters pov. So we shouldn't trust it 100%. 

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3 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I don't remember reading salt anywhere. Are you sure?

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

No high lifting required the first wall was only 20ft tall when first constructed, subsequent LC went ott in building it higher

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3 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

 

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

Okay first of all: Out of universe GRRM has made statements along the lines of "I've made it too big". He has admitted himself that he's not that great with sizes and proportions.

Second: the Children of the Forest have magic and are very apt at using it, particularly in relation to water it seems. In ages past their power both shattered the land-bridge between Westeros and Essos (creating the Steppign Stones) and created the Neck in a failed attempt to sever the North from southern Westeros. So, since ice is just solid water, it stand to reason the Children could enchant it and form it to such huge proportions with the help of men, giants and mammoths.

As Coolbeard has said, the water came from lakes, possibly the sea. Maybe the Children even transported it there through magic and/or condensed moisture from the air.

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all the examples of the COTF water magic are all according to myth

the maesters have scientific explanations for the breaking of the landbridge and creation of the neck

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I don't remember reading salt anywhere. Are you sure?

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

Yes, I'm sure. I'll find the quote for you. Okay, I'm not sure anymore. I can't find the quote. Sometimes A Search of Ice and Fire is finicky with me though, so I'll try again later.

The magic came from the CotF. 

Keep in mind that the humans have had 8,000 years to work on this thing, each LC for a long time building it higher than it was when he took office. I imagine as you get closer to the top, the blocks get smaller, and there was more in the way of pulleys and ropes than mammoths and giants involved.

1 hour ago, Fishb20 said:

all the examples of the COTF water magic are all according to myth

the maesters have scientific explanations for the breaking of the landbridge and creation of the neck

Of course the maesters have scientific explanations. They're anti-magic. At best they've figured out the science behind what the CotF do. At worst they're just being jerks because they don't want anyone to believe in the magic that clearly exists in some form.

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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7 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I don't remember reading salt anywhere. Are you sure?

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

 "But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels. "
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Wall/

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I don't remember reading salt anywhere. Are you sure?

Yeah but... how? It stretches for 300 miles, and isn't straight all the way. It's probably about 60 feet wide at the top, wider at the base, and 700 feet high. That's a lot of lifting. Just think of the cranes you'd need to lift a block to the top, and how many blocks you'd need. Where did all that ice come from? And then you've still just got a wall of ice, whereas the Wall also seems to be a magical barrier of some sort.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, I'm sure. I'll find the quote for you. Okay, I'm not sure anymore. I can't find the quote. Sometimes A Search of Ice and Fire is finicky with me though, so I'll try again later.

The magic came from the CotF. 

Keep in mind that the humans have had 8,000 years to work on this thing, each LC for a long time building it higher than it was when he took office. I imagine as you get closer to the top, the blocks get smaller, and there was more in the way of pulleys and ropes than mammoths and giants involved.

Of course the maesters have scientific explanations. They're anti-magic. At best they've figured out the science behind what the CotF do. At worst they're just being jerks because they don't want anyone to believe in the magic that clearly exists in some form.

Are you perchance looking for this salty quote, my Blizzy friend, as Bran passes under the wall and is "baptized" in a way? 

I'm on my phone, so pardon the nonexistent editing:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV 

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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6 hours ago, LordImp said:

TWOAIF is through a maesters pov. So we shouldn't trust it 100%. 

and there is official art of it in the book.

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5 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

and there is official art of it in the book.

Yes , but it is still through a skeptic maesters pov . TWOIAF is supposed to be " in world" book written by a maester so of course this maesters will belive that FM built the wall rather than mythical creatures no one belive exists.

I personally think men , children , giants and Others built it together . GRRM said that the Others can do unspeakble things with ice and we have a massive wall of ice , I dont think that's a coincidence. That's what I belive . 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Are you perchance looking for this salty quote, my Blizzy friend, as Bran passes under the wall and is "baptized" in a way? 

I'm on my phone, so pardon the nonexistent editing:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV 

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

That would be it. For some reason my mind changed the wording on me, which explains why I couldn't find it. Searched salt instead of salty. Silly me.

Thank you, TFL! 

@Ser Petyr Parker that was it!

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On 8/11/2017 at 9:38 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Interesting.

I always say of course men and giants and CotF can build a wall out of ice. It's the North, and it's winter. The one thing they have in abundance is ice. Even the seawater will freeze if it gets cold enough (note the Wall "weeps" salt tears). Harvesting ice is a real-world thing, and when you add giants, mammoths, and magical forest beings, the whole thing becomes very doable.

 

I think it is a bit of a stretch to state that the Wall "weeps" salt tears.  There are several references to the wall weeping but never with any references to the water being salty.  The Wall weeps when the weather is warm and the sun shines on it.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV 

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.
1

This is the only salty reference to the Wall that I know of and it isn't a reference to the whole wall being salty.  Rather, it is a reference to the Black Gate being warm and salty. 

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4 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I think it is a bit of a stretch to state that the Wall "weeps" salt tears.  There are several references to the wall weeping but never with any references to the water being salty.  The Wall weeps when the weather is warm and the sun shines on it.

 

This is the only salty reference to the Wall that I know of and it isn't a reference to the whole wall being salty.  Rather, it is a reference to the Black Gate being warm and salty. 

Why would the Black Gate be salty and not any other part of the Wall? Is there salt in the wood that the water is seeping through? Or salt in the magic? The logical conclusion is that the salt is coming from the melting ice. Under the ground the temperature will still be warm enough for the Wall to experience some melting. The fact that Bran thinks of it as "salty as a tear" rather fits with the analogy of the Wall weeping that GRRM has set up. The language is consistent without being repetitive. And Bran, being unfamiliar with NW jargon wouldn't think in terms of "weeping" specifically.

The entire Wall doesn't have to be salty. If part of it is, that's enough to indicate that some sea-ice was used. They couldn't possibly get all the water from just the lakes, even with the initial completed Wall being smaller than the one we have now. There wouldn't be any lakes left in the North, just large craters where water used to be.

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5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why would the Black Gate be salty and not any other part of the Wall? Is there salt in the wood that the water is seeping through? Or salt in the magic? The logical conclusion is that the salt is coming from the melting ice. Under the ground the temperature will still be warm enough for the Wall to experience some melting. The fact that Bran thinks of it as "salty as a tear" rather fits with the analogy of the Wall weeping that GRRM has set up. The language is consistent without being repetitive. And Bran, being unfamiliar with NW jargon wouldn't think in terms of "weeping" specifically.

The entire Wall doesn't have to be salty. If part of it is, that's enough to indicate that some sea-ice was used. They couldn't possibly get all the water from just the lakes, even with the initial completed Wall being smaller than the one we have now. There wouldn't be any lakes left in the North, just large craters where water used to be.

Why does the Black Gate dripping a drop of water that is salty like a human tear suggest that the whole Wall should be similarly salty?  The Black Gate is described as a huge face that had been carved or shaped from Weirwood that somehow stretches and distorts it's mouth wide enough to allow Bran and Co. to pass through it.  It is a sentient-seeming product of magic placed exactly where it is as a sort of airport security portal but it still feels like it is a living and breathing creature and dripping saline fluids doesn't feel out of place to me. 

 

I entered this discussion because I didn't think that the one drop of salty fluid encountered by Bran at the Black Gate equals the whole Wall being made from frozen sea water.  But now that I'm here I will also disagree with the notion that the sheer size of the Wall demands that they must have used frozen sea ice to build it.  Lakes are created by a combination of water run-off from precipitation and existing local water tables.  When ice is harvested the water table replaces it.  Here is a link to a page from the NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) stating that ice formed from sea water doesn't include the salt.   They even state that sea ice can be melted and used as drinking water. 

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/oceanfreeze.html

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45 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Why does the Black Gate dripping a drop of water that is salty like a human tear suggest that the whole Wall should be similarly salty?  The Black Gate is described as a huge face that had been carved or shaped from Weirwood that somehow stretches and distorts it's mouth wide enough to allow Bran and Co. to pass through it.  It is a sentient-seeming product of magic placed exactly where it is as a sort of airport security portal but it still feels like it is a living and breathing creature and dripping saline fluids doesn't feel out of place to me. 

 

I entered this discussion because I didn't think that the one drop of salty fluid encountered by Bran at the Black Gate equals the whole Wall being made from frozen sea water.  But now that I'm here I will also disagree with the notion that the sheer size of the Wall demands that they must have used frozen sea ice to build it.  Lakes are created by a combination of water run-off from precipitation and existing local water tables.  When ice is harvested the water table replaces it.  Here is a link to a page from the NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) stating that ice formed from sea water doesn't include the salt.   They even state that sea ice can be melted and used as drinking water. 

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/oceanfreeze.html

If you'll go back, you'll see that I said the whole Wall does not have to be salty. You know what? Here. I'll quote that part for you.

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

<snip

The entire Wall doesn't have to be salty. If part of it is, that's enough to indicate that some sea-ice was used. They couldn't possibly get all the water from just the lakes, even with the initial completed Wall being smaller than the one we have now. There wouldn't be any lakes left in the North, just large craters where water used to be.

Awesome link. Thank you. I'm not sure it applies to Worlderos, but still, thank you.

By the way, are you familiar with the concept of hyperbole? I was not being literal about no lakes being left in the North. 

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