Jojen Dayne-Reed

(f)Aegon consensus ?

86 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Did you also have blue eyes at age 5 that turned brown? Because that I would not believe at all. :P 

[snip]

And maybe you could convince me with evidence, but so far you have only presented speculation. Could Quentyn be Aegon. It's possible. Could Pretty Meris be Ashara Dayne. Just as possible. But I don't see much evidence for either one.

Did Aegon have blue eyes at 18 months?  Where do you get that from?  

No, my eyes did not turn from blue to brown, but they have turned a darker blue.  There are not many babies with purple eyes, but it seems to me that purple-to-brown is less of a shift than blue to brown.  Not that Aegon's eyes are ever said to have been purple either, so who cares anyway.

Sorry, but I'm not particularly interested in "convincing you with evidence".  I'm sure it's beyond my power.  I'm just putting forth my guess as to the identify of (f)Aegon.  I can't "prove" it, any more than you can prove he is the son of Illyrio Mopatis, or whatever your guess/theory happens to be.

How did a "give your guess" thread, turn into this hostile "prove it" nonsense?   Seems to me that if I were to give a fuller elucidation of the theory, this would not be quite the right place for it.

Edited by Lew Theobald

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

"Quite blond" meaning?

Blonde hair can indeed turn brown with age but I haven't heard about silvery blonde going that way. 

Plus, as others have mentioned, we don't have a single GRRMth example of such a change.

He was not "less dark". She looked Dornish, he looked Targaryen. That's a completely different look, not just "less dark.

How blond was I?  More or less like these 2:

https://www.livescience.com/34827-towhead-blond-kids-blondes-go-dark-brunette.html

Aegon is never said to be "silvery blond".  In any event, the real reason "silvery blond" (or "golden blond") children are not described as going dark, is because these phrases are poetic descriptions rarely used outside of fictional or poetic contexts.   Is silver blond lighter or darker than platinum blond?  Beats me.

You're putting alot of weight on a vague years old comment in an SSM.  You choose to read GRRM's comments as indicating they looked "completely different"; rather than merely different.

"Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen."

This phrasing is relative, not absolute.

Edited by Lew Theobald

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

"Quite blond" meaning?

Blonde hair can indeed turn brown with age but I haven't heard about silvery blonde going that way. 

Plus, as others have mentioned, we don't have a single GRRMth example of such a change.

Exactly, and this is, in itself, a clue. Since, you know, Martin is writing a story with several mysteries. He puts the clues/hints/foreshadowing in there, and we may get it or not. But to set it all up in a certain manner, only to have the one exception that is also the big reveal of the mystery? I think not. 

@Lew Theobald, here's the thread by @The Fattest Leech that was mentioned by @Lady Blizzardborn a few posts up. If you're interested, it's a great read w/ lots of great posts. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

He was not "less dark". She looked Dornish, he looked Targaryen. That's a completely different look, not just "less dark.

 

This. There's a ginormous difference between a blonde human baby that may turn brown later on and a silver-haired purple-eyed fantasy character. 

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29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly, and this is, in itself, a clue. Since, you know, Martin is writing a story with several mysteries. He puts the clues/hints/foreshadowing in there, and we may get it or not. But to set it all up in a certain manner, only to have the one exception that is also the big reveal of the mystery? I think not. 

@Lew Theobald, here's the thread by @The Fattest Leech that was mentioned by @Lady Blizzardborn a few posts up. If you're interested, it's a great read w/ lots of great posts. 

This. There's a ginormous difference between a blonde human baby that may turn brown later on and a silver-haired purple-eyed fantasy character. 

Oh, come off it.  GRRM gave a politely-noncommittal answer where he praised the questioner for hard work.  So this becomes the basis for a long string of posts possibly based on a house of cards.   Yes, you COULD be on to something.  But you just can't disprove another person's theories and guesses by pointing out that they are based on different assumptions than your own.

If there is, as you suppose, a hard rule that later-born children always have Targ looks, it has yet to be proven.  I for one don't believe it; because it is unrealistic and makes no sense.  I suspect I could find an exception if I looked hard enough, but it's really not worth the effort.

GRRM never said that Baby Aegon was "silver haired" or "purple eyed".  It's not an unreasonable assumption for your own theories, but it is not evidence against a theory that is willing to consider different assumptions.

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5 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Oh, come off it.  GRRM gave a politely-noncommittal answer where he praised the questioner for hard work.  So this becomes the basis for a long string of posts possibly based on a house of cards.   Yes, you COULD be on to something.  But you just can't disprove another person's theories and guesses by pointing out that they are based on different assumptions than your own.

If there is, as you suppose, a hard rule that later-born children always have Targ looks, it has yet to be proven.  I for one don't believe it; because it is unrealistic and makes no sense.  I suspect I could find an exception if I looked hard enough, but it's really not worth the effort.

GRRM never said that Baby Aegon was "silver haired" or "purple eyed".  It's not an unreasonable assumption for your own theories, but it is not evidence against a theory that is willing to consider different assumptions.

Oh crap. So you are telling me more than half the posts this site are pointless? 

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9 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Oh, come off it.  GRRM gave a politely-noncommittal answer where he praised the questioner for hard work.  So this becomes the basis for a long string of posts possibly based on a house of cards.   Yes, you COULD be on to something.  But you just can't disprove another person's theories and guesses by pointing out that they are based on different assumptions than your own.

If there is, as you suppose, a hard rule that later-born children always have Targ looks, it has yet to be proven.  I for one don't believe it; because it is unrealistic and makes no sense.  I suspect I could find an exception if I looked hard enough, but it's really not worth the effort.

GRRM never said that Baby Aegon was "silver haired" or "purple eyed".  It's not an unreasonable assumption for your own theories, but it is not evidence against a theory that is willing to consider different assumptions.

Know what? The main problem w/ trying to exchange ideas w/ you is not so much the far-fetched and unlikely stuff you come up with, but rather your attitude. You lack a sense of humour, but worse, you're uncivil when there's really no need to be. 

The thread I linked is not mine, and I, naively, thought you might be interested in reading interesting posts about (in part) the subject of this thread, both defending the OP's idea and arguing against it. I should have known better... 

And for once you are correct, Martin never said baby Aegon had silver hair and purple eyes. However, he did say he looked Targaryen, which translates as silver-haired and had purple/indigo/lilac eyes (read "fancy fantasy eye colour"). We know there are loads of Targs who don't have the "Targaryen look", and when the author uses Targ look descriptively for a character, we know some of us know exactly what he means. 

 

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Oh, come off it.  GRRM gave a politely-noncommittal answer where he praised the questioner for hard work.

I assure you, he was not giving me a "pat in the head". We had actual discussion about this, not in passing, but at an hour long table discussion. He took my note card because he kept throwing names at me and I always had an answer. What I reported were exactly his words, but there were a lot more to them that I have, but did not write in that Balticon report. The same when I asked about me and Bloodraven, and Jon and Val. 

 

Quote

If there is, as you suppose, a hard rule that later-born children always have Targ looks, it has yet to be proven.  I for one don't believe it; because it is unrealistic and makes no sense.  I suspect I could find an exception if I looked hard enough, but it's really not worth the effort.

First, I don't think you understand the hypothesis very well because of the first statement here. 

Feel free to look for exceptions. I found a few and the reason for them. It is spelled out in the hypothesis and George did say "yes" to the fact that the two exceptions have an identity crisis thing going on. 

If you find an exception that is not already discussed, please let me know :cheers:

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

And for once you are correct, Martin never said baby Aegon had silver hair and purple eyes. However, he did say he looked Targaryen, which translates as silver-haired and had purple/indigo/lilac eyes (read "fancy fantasy eye colour"). We know there are loads of Targs who don't have the "Targaryen look", and when the author uses Targ look descriptively for a character, we know some of us know exactly what he means. 

 

@kissdbyfire (sorry, quoter hates me)

Correct. The simplified genetic code that also fits fantasy. 

Brienne knows Gendry is a Baratheon because of his looks. 

Jon is identified by random strangers as being a Stark because he has the "Stark look".  

Targaryens all over Planetos have the Targaryens/Valyrian look, which is fair skin, silver to silver-gold hair, and shades of purple eyes. 

Not rocket science <--- George only uses that for his 1,000 Worlds series :lmao:

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Know what? The main problem w/ trying to exchange ideas w/ you is not so much the far-fetched and unlikely stuff you come up with, but rather your attitude. You lack a sense of humour, but worse, you're uncivil when there's really no need to be. 

The thread I linked is not mine, and I, naively, thought you might be interested in reading interesting posts about (in part) the subject of this thread, both defending the OP's idea and arguing against it. I should have known better... 

And for once you are correct, Martin never said baby Aegon had silver hair and purple eyes. However, he did say he looked Targaryen, which translates as silver-haired and had purple/indigo/lilac eyes (read "fancy fantasy eye colour"). We know there are loads of Targs who don't have the "Targaryen look", and when the author uses Targ look descriptively for a character, we know some of us know exactly what he means. 

Okay.  Now you are attacking my "attitude".  You call me "uncivil".  You accuse me of lacking a "sense of humor."  All because I declined to pay due homage to a theory that (in your opinion) deserves to be taken seriously.

And yet I never insulted the theory.  I tried to pay it its due.  I said that the theory may be on to something.  Apparently that wasn't enough.

Thank you for the link.  I know you thought I might be interested.  I'm sorry, but I did not find it interesting.  I'm not trying to be offensive.  Just honest.  And I think that, if you want to be civil yourself (not only to me, but to others as well), then you just have to accept that others don't HAVE to be interested in the theories that interest you.

I'm sorry, but you're still wrong about GRRM's SSM.  He did not say that Aegon looked "Targaryen".  He said he looked "more Targaryen".  More than what?  Unclear.  But the context suggests that Rhaenys looked more Martell than Aegon; and Aegon looked more Targaryen than Rhaenys.   That's relative, not absolute.  It may just refer to blond hair, which is always more noticeable than eyes anyhow.  

But I don't know what this means.  It COULD mean, as you suppose, that Aegon had silver blonde hair and purple eyes, and moreover, retained this coloring after puberty.  But that's not airtight.  I'm willing to consider a theory that questions these assumptions.  And you don't have to take that theory seriously, any more than I have to take your theories seriously. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Did Aegon have blue eyes at 18 months?  Where do you get that from?  

No, my eyes did not turn from blue to brown, but they have turned a darker blue.  There are not many babies with purple eyes, but it seems to me that purple-to-brown is less of a shift than blue to brown.  Not that Aegon's eyes are ever said to have been purple either, so who cares anyway.

Sorry, but I'm not particularly interested in "convincing you with evidence".  I'm sure it's beyond my power.  I'm just putting forth my guess as to the identify of (f)Aegon.  I can't "prove" it, any more than you can prove he is the son of Illyrio Mopatis, or whatever your guess/theory happens to be.

How did a "give your guess" thread, turn into this hostile "prove it" nonsense?   Seems to me that if I were to give a fuller elucidation of the theory, this would not be quite the right place for it.

LOL I don't think I was being hostile. In fact, I was specifically making an extra effort to be diplomatic, and then you said "Come on, don't be shy.  Say what you really think.  It will only make it all the more fun for me when you find out I was right." So I proceeded to tell you what I really think... as you requested. :P I know you are relatively new to the forum, but generally speaking if you are going to state a new theory out of left field, so to speak, it is helpful to summarize at least a couple key pieces of evidence that led you to the conclusion in the first place. That would be perfectly appropriate in this thread. I am not asking for proof, or 100% of the evidence, just a few bullet points would be nice. A couple pieces of evidence other than "it's possible" would be helpful for the sake of discussion. OK, Doran wants his son to be on the Iron Throne. That's a good point to make. But it is thoroughly unconvincing without other points to back it up.

Did Aegon have blue eyes at 18 months? I certainly hope so for the sake of fAegon. He was a prince, and a number of people would have seen him as a baby and made note of his Targaryen features. If baby Aegon had brown eyes, then trying to pass off fAegon as real could be super risky. But I suppose it is technically possible for Aegon to have been born with Targaryen features that very quickly went to Dornish, but everyone who saw baby Aegon is dead and GRRM was being super deceptive with that SSM saying that Aegon looked Targaryen.

I am sure that convincing me with evidence is not beyond your power, if the evidence is actually there. Perhaps I wouldn't subscribe to your theory, but I might give it a much higher probability of being correct. Because right now I give it like a 0.3% chance. I have changed my mind on almost every theory I originally subscribed to because the evidence convinced me otherwise. Like... I used to think Aegon was totally legit (Rhaegar's son), and now I don't.

I can't prove that Aegon is Illyrio's son, but I can give you pieces of evidence. Here's a few off the top of my head:

  • Illyrio claimed to Tyrion that he had helped out Viserys in the hopes of being named Master of Coin. This explanation seems a bit lacking. Illyrio is already super rich and has all the luxuries he could possibly want. Why does he want to be Master of Coin in Westeros?
  • Illyrio had a wife Serra who died in a plague. It is definitely possible that they had a child/children. In which case, where could Illyrio's children be?
  • Illyrio claims to have a contract with the GC "writ in blood". Since the very existence of the GC is directly linked to the Blackfyre rebellions, it would make sense if Illyrio is a Blackfyre. But obviously it is Aegon, not Illyrio, who they are trying to put on the IT, so it would make sense if Aegon is Illyrio's son.
  • There is a statue in Illyrio's manse surrounded by blackberry trees. Illyrio claims it is of himself (while young), which is a bit odd, because he obviously didn't have the statue made until he was rich, old, and fat. It may actually be a contemporary statue of Aegon, his son.
  • Jorah gave Dany a stack of old Westerosi children's books for a wedding gift. This seems intended to manipulate Dany's feelings (into supporting a Westeros invasion with Drogo) and was probably actually from Illyrio, just like the servants given to her by Viserys. But oddly, the books are old. Did Jorah, or Illyrio, take a trip to the used book store in Pentos and buy some children's stories as a gift? Probably not. It is more likely that these books belonged to young Aegon, who probably lived at Illyrio's manse when he was a child.
  • Illyrio seemed super sad when he was not provided the opportunity to speak to Aegon in ADWD, hinting at some deep emotional attachment. Aegon being his son would explain this.

See, like that! :P 

Just a few basic details from the story to support your claim. It takes 2 seconds... if you actually have evidence to back up your theory, which right now I honestly doubt because you keep refusing to provide any. ;) 

EDIT: Here, I will even get you started by inferring things you may already think. Doran lies all the time, and his story about his wife is kind of illogical. He may be hiding something important. Septa Lemore has given birth. Is her child someone important? It would make sense if she was actually raising her child. Yandry and Ysilla are Orphans of the Greenblood, and the Orphans are generally on super good terms with Doran.

So there, some evidence supporting your theory that I still am unconvinced by. If you have other evidence beyond those points I would sincerely be interested in reading it. :D 

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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4 hours ago, Kienn said:

This is a flaw with your imagination, not the "theory".

Without a stated motivation (or even with one, since they're often false) any plausible guess works until proven incorrect.

It might as well be. Actually, as I said, I would like it more if Aegon was real, so I am hoping for future clues regarding Varys in the next books. 

And just so I can get informed,can you point me to a thread with strong support for the Aegon is Real Theory. I would love to be seduced-

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Just a few basic details from the story to support your claim. It takes 2 seconds... if you actually have evidence to back up your theory, which right now I honestly doubt because you keep refusing to provide any. ;) 

I don't see any particular need to prove anything, because I don't see any particular need to convince anybody.  

But since you seem so nice, here's a point or two:

- Quentyn "the frog" Martell has dreams of fire and blood.

- Mellario is a noblewoman from Norvos.  Norvos started as a colony of the Valyrian freehold, suggesting that some noblewomen of Norvos may have the Targ coloring.  But this would not be common knowledge because (in a curious detail from the World Book) Norvosi noblewomen always shave their heads and wear wigs.  Thus, if Young Griff is Mellario and Doran's son, he may be merely taking after his Norvoshi mom, rather than his Dornish dad.  This would make Baby Quentyn and Baby Aegon ideal for a swap, being roughly the same age, and both being of a Valyrian-Martell mix.

- Mellario is allegedly estranged from Doran.  Why?  Apparently because she is mad at him for sending Quentyn to the Yronwoods.  As a result, she spends most of her time in Essos, apparently separated from ALL her children, including Quentyn.  Does this make sense?  

- "Mellario" and "Lemore" is close to being the same name with the sounds rearranged.   Lemore is a mysterious character, who invites speculation as to her identity.  She has given birth in the past, as Tyrion observed.  And what would her interest in Young Griff be?  Might Young Griff not be her son?

- I've long been convinced by the theory that Quentyn is Alive (that he survived Rhaegal's attack in ADWD).  Not because I wanted him to be alive, but because the evidence of his death is so suggestive of a fakeout.  A major objection to the Quentyn is Alive theory is the rhetorical question "what is the point of Quentyn being alive?".   Here's a possible answer:  He is the real baby Aegon.  But I did not really want to open that whole can of worms, since I know the very idea of Quentyn being alive invites major outrage.

- I am not the first person to suspect that Quentyn "the frog" Martell is not the "real" Quentyn - in the sense of not actually being Doran's son.  There's an old theory about that with various reasons given.  But I am (to my knowledge) the first to make the Baby Aegon connection.

Now that took me a lot more than 2 seconds, and it's not a complete writeup either. Now I've probably opened a huge can of worms, against my better judgment.

Edited by Lew Theobald

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10 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I am anticipating the time when Dany is ready to set sail for Westeros only to hear the son of her brother has already taken the Iron Throne. She has then to decide what to do, and I am pretty sure some people around her will start talking about mummer´s dragons, the Undying prophecies and those Blackfyre connections. I am also quite confident she will eventually say something along the lines of: "F him off, I am the True Dragon". This would be really ironic i we, as the readers, were definitely told Aegon is the real deal.

Also, if you subscribe, as I do, to the "Prophecy is bogus" theory, it would fit nicely with the "sending false visions... all for the end of turning brother against sister" (Dying of the Light). 

 

But the "Aegon is real Theory", in my opinion, has a serious flaw. Varys, and even more so Illyrio, lack motivation involving themselves in the plan, at least with the information we currently have. I have to admit that the "Brigtfyre Theory" addresses this issue really well.

 

First, Dany is unlikely to just blow off Aegon since she saw him in a vision at the HotU. The belief that Dany took away from that vision was that somewhere there were two men she could trust unconditionally, if she could only find them. Therefore, she won't really question Aegon still being alive. Most people's feeling that Aegon will be treated with suspicion by Dany is really only their own suspicions.

Second, Varys and Illyrio are probably working off the idea that Aegon is the prophesied Azor Ahai. Most readers forget that Varys and Illyrio are Essosi and have a different belief system than those from Westeros.

Brightfyre is the probably the worst of the theories.

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There is a debt of affection and a contract writ in blood. The theory depends on Varys and/or Illyrio being strongly connected, most likely descended from, the Blackfyre. This is supported by suggestions in the text that Varys has a drop of dragonblood and that Illyrio is Aegon's father, or at least that he raised the wee dragonlet before sending him off to foster with Jon Connington. 

And why does no one think that Varys making a poverty stricken bravo into one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the known world a reason for helping Varys out on this project? I don't understand why so many people just blow this off.

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29 minutes ago, bent branch said:

First, Dany is unlikely to just blow off Aegon since she saw him in a vision at the HotU. The belief that Dany took away from that vision was that somewhere there were two men she could trust unconditionally, if she could only find them. Therefore, she won't really question Aegon still being alive. Most people's feeling that Aegon will be treated with suspicion by Dany is really only their own suspicions.

Second, Varys and Illyrio are probably working off the idea that Aegon is the prophesied Azor Ahai. Most readers forget that Varys and Illyrio are Essosi and have a different belief system than those from Westeros.

Brightfyre is the probably the worst of the theories.

I agree with your first paragraph. I think Daenerys will come to Aegon's aid as he is hard pressed just as Tyrion predicted she would. 

Why do you think Illyrio and Varys think that Aegon is Azor Ahai? 

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24 minutes ago, bent branch said:

And why does no one think that Varys making a poverty stricken bravo into one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the known world a reason for helping Varys out on this project? I don't understand why so many people just blow this off.

Good point. Illyrio owes him. I could see that being a contract written in blood too. As kids/youths they may well have sworn a blood oath.

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23 minutes ago, bent branch said:

And why does no one think that Varys making a poverty stricken bravo into one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the known world a reason for helping Varys out on this project? I don't understand why so many people just blow this off.

I think that's the way a lot of the original Blackfyre theorists see it, actually. The Blackfyre theory that dominated this forum about four years ago assumed that Varys and Serra were descendants of Daemon Blackfyre, and Varys arranged for Illyrio to wed Serra. Those two had the noble lad Aegon, and Illyrio is paying the debt of affection he owes to the Blackfyres. Of course the basic concept works just as well if you believe that Varys truly is working toward a Targaryen restoration. (I prefer the idea that Illyrio is the descendant of Aegon.) I don't see any need to argue with you about it. I know you are really committed to the Targaryen restoration plot, and that's cool. 

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23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The real flaw in the plan is that it requires that the real Aegon looks like a Martell despite the fact that the author is on record as saying he took after Rhaegar in appearance. Rhaenys looked like Elia, Aegon looked like Rhaegar. It's in an SSM. 

That's not true. The Martells may not be phenotypes, but they can be carriers of a recessive gene. The first Daenerys Targaryen married the Prince of Dorne. And before that, Larra Rogare's Lyseni uncle married the Princess of Dorne.

I've checked whether a recessive partial albinism gene works out here:

 

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