Kalbear

US Politics: Locked, Loaded, Fired Up and Capitalized

416 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

They are showing their faces. Go to Matt McDermott's twitter. He has some pictures up of them and retweeted another one that had a huge group of their faces.

Ok.  I'm not going to go to some guy's twitter that I've never heard of, but good to know.  Your avi fascinates me though.  It looks like Matt Drudge with a tiny scull behind it.

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25 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

yes, the state protecting actual nazis is a bad thing. next question

I did not read your post immediately preceding this (I still need capitalization and spacing for me eyes!), but this is wrong.  So, the state is supposed to allow whatever happens to nazis to just happen?  That's not what this country is about.  That's not what any country that's convinced by their better angels is about.

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24 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

He ignored me, entirely.  As if nothing happened.  Which, good for him.  The SS guys said he got that type of shit a lot.  And yeah, should stop referring to them as SS.  That's poorly done drunk shorthand.

Honest question, haven't been following this.  Are these assholes showing their faces?  Because if they are...there should be an effort to show their faces.

yes, there are several videos and photos of the nazis clearly shown by their faces. unfortunately, despite their chants to the contrary, every single one looks exactly the same

 

12 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's a conflation of what they actually are. Yes, they hold to a horrid, failed ideology. They want to be Nazis, but they are mostly a pale shadow of something that they can only aspire to be. Neo-nazi is the more appropriate term methinks. 

 I agree with you that these folks should be countered. That is important. That this instance is centered around the removal of a statue is the bit that I find to be unimportant.

 If the outcome results in violence of a significant sort (centered around what I consider to be an insignificant issue) then I'll continue to promote a mealy mouthed defense of civility. You did equate those two things. Go back and reread what you wrote, "just to be sure".

neo nazis are nazis! that's, like, their whole thing! what the ever loving fuck, how have we got to this point?

again, for the cheap seats: it's not about the goddamned statue. what is so hard to understand about this?

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Just now, dmc515 said:

I did not read your post immediately preceding this (I still need capitalization and spacing for me eyes!), but this is wrong.  So, the state is supposed to allow whatever happens to nazis to just happen?  That's not what this country is about.  That's not what any country that's convinced by their better angels is about.

It's Hank Williams with a tiny skull lol.

He's a pollster. I'm sure all you have to do is find the hashtag on facebook or twitter and you will see some pictures. I just saw one of a few of them doing the nazi salute.

8 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Ok.  I'm not going to go to some guy's twitter that I've never heard of, but good to know.  Your avi fascinates me though.  It looks like Matt Drudge with a tiny scull behind it.

This country sucks its own dick over what it did to Nazis back in World War II. You would think they wouldn't tolerate home grown neo nazis, but hey, this country has statues still up of treasonous slave owners who fought to keep slavery alive and legal.

This country needs to stop tolerating political ideologies that revolve around the oppression of people based around their ethnicity, skin color, sexual orientation, gender etc. Especially ones that revolve around wiping out half of the worlds population. That means letting them do what they are doing tonight and getting into large groups. 

We treat death threats, rape threats, threats of assault and terroristic threats as serious issues. Maybe we should start treating an ideology that wiped out 6 million jews and millions of other people and helped spark one of the worst wars this the world has ever seen seriously as well?
 

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7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I did not read your post immediately preceding this (I still need capitalization and spacing for me eyes!), but this is wrong.  [1]So, the state is supposed to allow whatever happens to nazis to just happen?  [2]That's not what this country is about.  That's not what any country that's convinced by their better angels is about.

1: yes.

2: true, and that's one of the great problems with this country 

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4 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

It's Hank Williams with a tiny skull lol.

Ah.  The fedora got me.

5 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

We treat death threats, rape threats, threats of assault and terroristic threats as serious issues. Maybe we should start treating an ideology that wiped out 6 million jews and millions of other people and helped spark one of the worst wars this the world has ever seen seriously as well?

Not one of, THE worst war.  But still, no.  You get arrested for actions, not for thoughts.  Otherwise, I should've been arrested thousands of times over (as opposed to only hundreds with that actions).

4 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

1: yes.

2: true, and that's one of the great problems with this country 

What you're advocating would eventually devolve to the equivalent of lynchings for nazis.  If you're cool with that, it's unfortunate that you've reacted to extremism with extremism.  I'm, however, not.

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11 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

again, for the cheap seats: it's not about the goddamned statue. what is so hard to understand about this?

So why is it happening (or at least why did it start) around the statue? That may not be all that this is about, but it's part of the fucking equation. In fact, as near as I can tell, it's the fucking focal point of the whole incident.

 

10 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

2: true, and that's one of the great problems with this country 

 That is one of the great problems with this country. You don't just get to commit violence against someone who you have issue with politically or socially or whatever. They don't get to do it to you, and you don't get to do it to them. Not without legal repercussion in any case.

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So Trump is pivoting to war with Venezuela, because it has no nukes, so there's less downside. But the upside is that he still gets to have a war, which is generally good for presidential popularity. Will congress go for it?

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1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

Ah.  The fedora got me.

Not one of, THE worst war.  But still, no.  You get arrested for actions, not for thoughts.  Otherwise, I should've been arrested thousands of times over (as opposed to only hundreds with that actions).

What you're advocating would eventually devolve to the equivalent of lynchings for nazis.  If you're cool with that, it's unfortunate that you've reacted to extremism with extremism.  I'm, however, not.

unfortunate choice of wording, considering how the police treat certain marginalized persons that aren't nazis, but whatever. but if you're cool with the state brutally enforcing its will upon person of color, disabled, or otherwise radical activists while treating those who yell out racially slurs, advocate for genocide and terrorize black churches etc, like they are a cub scout parade... well that's unfortunate, but i am not. 

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Ah.  The fedora got me.

Not one of, THE worst war.  But still, no.  You get arrested for actions, not for thoughts.  Otherwise, I should've been arrested thousands of times over (as opposed to only hundreds with that actions).

What you're advocating would eventually devolve to the equivalent of lynchings for nazis.  If you're cool with that, it's unfortunate that you've reacted to extremism with extremism.  I'm, however, not.

Sorry, their thoughts are based around oppression and genocide, and when turned into actions are clearly a danger and have a huge body count behind it. 

Maybe when some of the country grows a spine and stops the centrist free speech fetishism we'll get past this type of thing.

And when you don't respond to nazis with more than peaceful protests, especially in a country that caters to them and allows them to spew their bigotry and has some of them being invited to universities, you will allow them to gain more followers and gain more positions of power and eventually have them setting policy.

Oh, and go look up how those neo nazis in Charlottesville were beating on people. I knew one of them getting beat on. And companies like Twitter do nothing to help stop this shit when they let Richard Spencer run wild on their preaching nazism and taunting someone who just got assaulted. 

 

Edited by Sword of Doom

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16 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

So why is it happening (or at least why did it start) around the statue? That may not be all that this is about, but it's part of the fucking equation. In fact, as near as I can tell, it's the fucking focal point of the whole incident.

lol, well as luck would have it, you are providing a perfectly illustrative example. "we're not really nazis (blood and soil!)" and "it's about ethics in game journalism i mean preserving our history (one people one nation!)" they are fighting a war of memes (not the stupid internet sense, but as in self-perpetuating ideas) and as I said the statue is their dog lead to get dipshits who should otherwise be vocally antagonistic to frame their actions as a "well.... let's not call everyone we disagree with as nazis...."

16 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 That is one of the great problems with this country. You don't just get to commit violence against someone who you have issue with politically or socially or whatever. They don't get to do it to you, and you don't get to do it to them. Not without legal repercussion in any case.

fucking LOL

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8 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

unfortunate choice of wording, considering how the police treat certain marginalized persons that aren't nazis, but whatever. but if you're cool with the state brutally enforcing its will upon person of color, disabled, or otherwise radical activists while treating those who yell out racially slurs, advocate for genocide and terrorize black churches etc, like they are a cub scout parade... well that's unfortunate, but i am not. 

Of course not.  I was specifically responding to you stating this - "So, the state is supposed to allow whatever happens to nazis to just happen" - in the affirmative.  Which, when you think about the implications, is incredibly dangerous.  I'm hardly a fan of the police, but there are lines.

8 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

And when you don't respond to nazis with more than peaceful protests, especially in a coutnry that caters to them and allows them to spew their bigotry and has some of them being invited to universities, you will allow them to gain more followers and gain more positions of power and eventually have them setting policy.

Exactly what is your proposed solution to this?

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18 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So Trump is pivoting to war with Venezuela, because it has no nukes, so there's less downside. But the upside is that he still gets to have a war, which is generally good for presidential popularity. Will congress go for it?

of course they will. a leftist regime rich in petro resources that has been openly ans vocally critical of the u.s.? shit, the nyt has  already done half the legwork for them. bet my last dollar mccain drags his mushbrained corpse out of treatment to vote for military action

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20 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So Trump is pivoting to war with Venezuela, because it has no nukes, so there's less downside. But the upside is that he still gets to have a war, which is generally good for presidential popularity. Will congress go for it?

Nope.  The military is already stretched thin.  They're not going to be reinvigorated by pig vomit.

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2 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

fucking LOL

Yeah, Rule of Law is fucking HILARIOUS. WTF? 

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5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Of course not.  I was specifically responding to you stating this - "So, the state is supposed to allow whatever happens to nazis to just happen" - in the affirmative.  Which, when you think about the implications, is incredibly dangerous.  I'm hardly a fan of the police, but there are lines.

why? please, explain to me why the police should treat the nazis better than anynother group of protesters/activists?

 

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1 minute ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

why? please, explain to me why the police should treat the nazis better than anynother group of protesters/activists?

 

It seems your premise is the police treat any (or all) other groups of protesters/activists in a violent way.  Ok, let's say I accept that.  Still, what you explicitly agreed with earlier would be the police turning a blind eye while citizens dealt with nazis on their own.  Which is mob mentality.  Which leads to bad things.  That was what I was objecting to.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Of course not.  I was specifically responding to you stating this - "So, the state is supposed to allow whatever happens to nazis to just happen" - in the affirmative.  Which, when you think about the implications, is incredibly dangerous.  I'm hardly a fan of the police, but there are lines.

Exactly what is your proposed solution to this?

They can have a platform when they hang and a nice safe space six feet in the ground for all I care. 

How about they are treated the same way the police treat peaceful black protesters? 

I mean hell, tonight the cops let some neo nazis beat on counter protesters and those neo nazis weren't met with canisters of tear gas, cops in riot gear and met with a baton from one of the cops. They were met with a knock it off. 

This country needs to accept that fact that not all ideas need to be treated equally and not every idea deserves freedom of speech, specifically something like nazism. Why should be people be protected to spew an ideology of genocide and racial superiority? Especially since it can allow them to gain power and start to strip rights away from people? 

There is no definitive answer on how to address it, but I know we should not allow it to be normalized and them to hide behind freedom of speech while doing so.  

 

Edited by Sword of Doom

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3 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

This country needs to accept that fact that not all ideas need to be treated equally and not every idea deserves freedom of speech, specifically something like nazism. Why should be people be protected to spew an ideology of genocide and racial superiority? Especially since it can allow them to gain power and start to strip rights away from people? 

At last!  We've arrived at the real question.  Is SCOTUS right for protecting (non-violent) Nazi speech?  I think yes, and it is a slippery slope argument.  Once we start codifying which ideology is palatable and which is not, that's not an avenue I want to go down - especially considering the level of polarization in this country.  But that's just me.  I'm not going to deny the other side is entirely valid.

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4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, Rule of Law is fucking HILARIOUS. WTF? 

are you being deliberately obtuse? take a deep breath, read that again, and try and think on the point i was making

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