Kalbear

US Politics: Locked, Loaded, Fired Up and Capitalized

416 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

They can have a platform when they hang and a nice safe space six feet in the ground for all I care. 

Yes, let's fight genocidal thought with actual genocide! Fight fascism with fascism! Awesome.

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If the neo nazis are marching and protesting and speaking within the legal realm of the permit granted then they should have the same right as anyone to freedom of speech and assembly.  I'm not a fan of nazis, in fact I hate them, but if they cross thier t's and dot thier i's and wanna get up there and spew thier bullshit then let them.  I want to live in a county where ideas are defeated by ideas, not one where we suppress ideas we find abhorrent.  I cannot abide the idea that something, anything, is so horrible that I need to be protected from rejecting it on my own.  That feels like the slipperiest of slippery slopes.

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1 minute ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

are you being deliberately obtuse? take a deep breath, read that again, and try and think on the point i was making

Why don't you break it down for this dipshit. 

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1 minute ago, S John said:

If the neo nazis are marching and protesting and speaking within the legal realm of the permit granted then they should have the same right as anyone to freedom of speech and assembly.  I'm not a fan of nazis, in fact I hate them, but if they cross thier t's and dot thier i's and wanna get up there and spew thier bullshit then let them.  I want to live in a county where ideas are defeated by ideas, not one where we suppress ideas we find abhorrent.  I cannot abide the idea that something, anything, is so horrible that I need to be protected from rejecting it on my own.  That feels like the slipperiest of slippery slopes.

SO MUCH THIS. The most effective way of fighting this is to interview these assholes. Go out there with a videocamera and let them hang themselves with their own words. 

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Police in america will throw disabled people out of their wheel chairs and arrest them, but they wont arrest neo nazis harassing a town and assaulting people. They'll beat on peaceful black protesters protesting police brutalty, but they won't beat on nazis terrorizing a community with torches and using those torches as weapons when they assault people. They'll shoot unarmed people of color, but they won't shoot neo nazis assaulting people with weapons. 

The police sure go out of their way to make sure that white supremacists are protected, even when they are being a problem and getting violent.  

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, S John said:

If the neo nazis are marching and protesting and speaking within the legal realm of the permit granted then they should have the same right as anyone to freedom of speech and assembly.  I'm not a fan of nazis, in fact I hate them, but if they cross thier t's and dot thier i's and wanna get up there and spew thier bullshit then let them.  I want to live in a county where ideas are defeated by ideas, not one where we suppress ideas we find abhorrent.  I cannot abide the idea that something, anything, is so horrible that I need to be protected from rejecting it on my own.  That feels like the slipperiest of slippery slopes.

I want to live in a country that stops with the intellectual circle jerks and stops thinking that all ideas are worth giving a platform to and that a corrupt ideology wont find ways to corrupt society and get it's foot back in the door to set policy and start doing what it wants to do. The Alt Right are neo nazis and white supremacists. Spencer dressed up nazism and presents it as a kinder gentler just another opinion type of ideology to avoid the connection to that term because of the weight it holds. 

We shouldn't let them spew their bullshit. How the hell do you think Hitler got into power? Spewing his bullshit and the other side not being able to counter it. He indoctrinated people. What you want to do is dangerous, especially since we what happens when people are allowed to spew such an ideology. Allowing it to have platforms helps normalize it and legitimatize it.

Edited by Sword of Doom

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10 minutes ago, S John said:

I'm not a fan of nazis, in fact I hate them,

That's bold Cotton!  (Sorry, being a smartass.)

6 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Police in america will throw disabled people out of their wheel chairs and arrest them

I think you're confusing police in america with the nazis in Schindler's List.

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18 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

It seems your premise is the police treat any (or all) other groups of protesters/activists in a violent way.  Ok, let's say I accept that.  Still, what you explicitly agreed with earlier would be the police turning a blind eye while citizens dealt with nazis on their own.  Which is mob mentality.  Which leads to bad things.  That was what I was objecting to.

oh please. while i personally may be ok with any sort of violence visitors upon nazis (a strangly singular position here apparently), you are smart enough to know there can be a middle ground, namely shutting down openly ethnic-fascist rallies, locking up vocal and violent agitators, etc. and before you even start, don't give me that "well if they have to do it to this group they have to do it to all" bullshit. remember these are nazis we're talking about. thst whole argument is the very reason these shitbags are able to organize these rallies in the first place

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10 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

They'll shoot unarmed people of color, but they won't shoot neo nazis assaulting people with weapons. 

That's a salient line.  I agree.  You should lead with that.

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2 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

I want to live in a country that stops with the intellectual circle jerks and stops thinking that all ideas are worth giving a platform to and that a corrupt ideology wont find ways to corrupt society and get it's foot back in the door to set policy and start doing what it wants to do. The Alt Right are neo nazis and white supremacists. Spencer dressed up nazism and presents it as a kinder gentler just another opinion type of ideology to avoid the connection to that term because of the weight it holds. 

We shouldn't let them spew their bullshit. How the hell do you think Hitler got into power? Spewing his bullshit and the other side not being able to counter it. He indoctrinated people. What you want to do is dangerous, especially since we what happens when people are allowed to spew such an ideology. Allowing it to have platforms helps normalize it and legitimatize it.

So you basically want to live in a  state where your preferred ideology is enforced down the barrel of a gun. How is this not a form of fascism?

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7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

That's bold Cotton!  (Sorry, being a smartass.)

I think you're confusing police in america with the nazis in Schindler's List.


Nope. Remember those protesting the ACA repeal that were in wheel chairs that were pushed or carried out of their wheel chairs and arrested? 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

oh please. while i personally may be ok with any sort of violence visitors upon nazis (a strangly singular position here apparently), you are smart enough to know there can be a middle ground, namely shutting down openly ethnic-fascist rallies, locking up vocal and violent agitators, etc. and before you even start, don't give me that "well if they have to do it to this group they have to do it to all" bullshit. remember these are nazis we're talking about. thst whole argument is the very reason these shitbags are able to organize these rallies in the first place

Well...all of this is contingent on the question of whether you think nazis should be afforded free speech protection.  That's a good discussion question - one I've used in classes.  But here I'll give my opinion:  what happens when after we shut down the nazi?  Who's next?  Those radical Muslims certainly have some crazy beliefs -- and we can dig up some violent agitators as well!  Hey, let's shut them down as well!

That's my argument.

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1 minute ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

 

1 minute ago, Sword of Doom said:


Nope. Remember those protesting the ACA repeal that were in wheel chairs that were pushed or carried out of their wheel chairs and arrested? 
 

 

Drunk and forgot that.  My bad.

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

I want to live in a country that stops with the intellectual circle jerks and stops thinking that all ideas are worth giving a platform to and that a corrupt ideology wont find ways to corrupt society and get it's foot back in the door to set policy and start doing what it wants to do. The Alt Right are neo nazis and white supremacists. Spencer dressed up nazism and presents it as a kinder gentler just another opinion type of ideology to avoid the connection to that term because of the weight it holds. 

We shouldn't let them spew their bullshit. How the hell do you think Hitler got into power? Spewing his bullshit and the other side not being able to counter it. He indoctrinated people. What you want to do is dangerous, especially since we what happens when people are allowed to spew such an ideology. Allowing it to have platforms helps normalize it and legitimatize it.

I disagree.  I realize this is a time of great stress where, almost unbelievably, ideologies that we'd left for dead seem to be gaining traction.  But it is our responsibility  to counter those arguments and to remind people that we've been down this road before.  Read your first sentence again and think about Islam and Sharia Law and you could find an extraordinarily similar tirade on any alt right sounding board.  I do not believe that the answer to unsavory ideologies is to shut them down, because that sets a precident that could easily be used against you before you know it.  The answer is to step up your game and rhetorically expose the weaknesses of the ideology and we certainly still have the advantage.  You're never going to convince everyone, but that is the price of a truly free society.

Edited by S John

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Just now, S John said:

I disagree.  I realize this is a time of great stress where, almost unbelievably, ideologies that we'd left for dead seem to be gaining traction.  But it is our responsibility  to counter those arguments and to remind people that we've been down this road before.  Read your first sentence again and think about Islam and Sharia Law and you could find an extraordinarily similar tirade on any alt right sounding board.  I do not believe that the answer to unsavory ideologies is to shut them down, because that sets a price debt that could easily be used against you before you know it.  The answer is to step up your game and rhetorically expose the weaknesses of the ideology and we certainly still have the advantage.  You're never going to convince everyone, but that is the price of a truly free society.


Discourse does not work when fascism is the opposing ideology. If it did, wars would not have been needed to bring them down. Especially in the case of nazism. 
 

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

 

Drunk and forgot that.  My bad.

All good. There has been a shit ton of ridiculous things that have happened since then so it's not hard to forget lol. They just blur into one another sometimes.

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15 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

That's bold Cotton!  (Sorry, being a smartass.)

I think you're confusing police in america with the nazis in Schindler's List.

Haha, well I added the interrupting clause just to be clear.  I've been around the Internet long enough to know that you better be upfront about your opposition to nazisim, 'specially if you're about to argue in favor of thier right to be dickbags.

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:


Discourse does not work when fascism is the opposing ideology. If it did, wars would not have been needed to bring them down. Especially in the case of nazism. 
 

You are kind of proving my point though, consider a single word alteration of your first sentence  -

"Discourse does not work when Islam is the opposing ideology. If it did, wars would not have been needed to bring them down."

I changed one word and that's straight off a Richard Spencer nazi  sploogestravaganza, we have to be better than that.

Edited by S John

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4 minutes ago, S John said:

You are kind of proving my point though, consider a single word alteration of your first sentence  -

"Discourse does not work when Islam is the opposing ideology. If it did, wars would not have been needed to bring them down."

I changed one word and that's straight off a Richard Spencer nazi  sploogestravaganza, we have to be better than that.

I'm not proving your point. Your "point" revolves around spine centrist false equivalences.

You ignorantly think you can have discourse when fascism is the opposition. How naive you are and how ignorant of history you are showing yourself to be.


Nice to see that the cops aren't letting them carry on being violent and it's wonderful to see wall to wall news coverage about it and panels discussing white on white violence and the issue with white culture and the violence they perpetuate.  Oh wait, there is no news coverage like that, the cops aren't meeting them with resistance and arresting them. 

They were cheering black lives splatter and white lives matter. Bunch of entitled ignorant whiny mediocre fools.

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41 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Why don't you break it down for this dipshit. 

because you have repeatedly proven you are either incapable addressing my salient points or are more interested in offering up half assed neo nazi apologia, but fuck it, i'll give or a shot: people have violence visited upon them based on ideological differences almost daily in this country, without recourse. the difference is, this violence is usually perpetrated by conservative, reactionary, and/or right wing elements of our society. by defending or enhancing this status quo, and not actively working to overturn it, the centrist/moderate elements of our society lend credence to these reactionaries, and further entrench their world view as 'normal'. the right wing reactionaries now get to push their vile views as closer to 'center' and thus more mainstream. so they can now use this "you wouldn't want this to happen to you" message while providing a convenient cover to ignore the very real instance of this violence and suppression happening to marginalized, less "mainstream" groups. so when you say (sorry paraphrasing, can't seem to multi quote on my phone) "you can't commit violence against those you disagree with violence without legal repercussion" while very real physical, emotional, and economic violence is actually committed against people every day without repercussion, then yes, i am going to laugh in your fucking face. 

tl;dr-- i am not saying the idea of "rule of law" is laughable on its face; but the argument that it exists today, in any sort of fair and equitable sense (even ignoring the people out there actively working for genocide) is fucking hilarious. ell oh fucking ell

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