Kalbear

US Politics: Locked, Loaded, Fired Up and Capitalized

416 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 But how do you kill it without adopting a fascistic strategy? That's my beef with antifas. At the end of the day, they are essentially anti-nazi nazis. 

   Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.-Friedrich Nietzsche

Rule of law. Arrest them, show that they are actively threatening other people in the USA in the courts and lock them up. Clean up the people in power who have protected them for so long, you have elections for that or the courts.

 

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1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

What does that entail?  I was responding last night to the notion nazis should not be afforded basic physical protection from the police (I believe the exact phrase was "get the shit kicked out of them).  Basic universal rights are basic and universal, and it's hard to conceive of a more basic one than protection from bodily harm.

Now, if we're talking, say, the Westboro case, I'd agree.  Speech can cause emotional pain.  It has been demonstrated that emotional pain is actually more harmful than physical pain.  Individuals should have the right to be protected from speech that inflicts emotional harm -- when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy (and I think a funeral is a reasonable expectation of privacy).  But taking away basic rights like protected speech, assembly, and protest based on the ideological content?  Nope.  That's not how rights work, and is akin to the old canard, "why should he get a trial?  He didn't give his victims a trial."

You've talked yourself in this strange little circle here.  You agree that groups like the Westboro Baptist Church causes emotional pain and we should try to protect people from emotional pain.  Yet somehow that doesn't extend to fucking nazis and the KKK.  I mean, what the fuck do you people think these groups are advocating?  Are you truly dense enough to think that their rhetoric doesn't cause intense emotional pain for a significant portion of the population?  

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56 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

How is the threat so urgent that you (and others here) feel that it needs to be met with violence? Are the neo-nazis attacking people in the streets? If that's the case, then by all means Leslie Scott-Jones should defend herself and her family by any means necessary. In absence of that, a violent physical reaction to an ideology that you find to be abhorrent is not reasonable, legal or warranted.

The neonazis and white supremacists are heavily involved in police forces around the country as well as being guards in prisons at an alarming rate. 

When you suggest the police should handle it, you're suggesting a police system run by white supremacists that has routinely been racist and biased is the right course of action to handle white supremacy, and you do this with actual belief this is correct. 

The charlottesville riots have left two people in serious condition and the Virginia governor has declared a state of emergency. Where were the riot police? Where were the swat vans? 

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

You've talked yourself in this strange little circle here.  You agree that groups like the Westboro Baptist Church causes emotional pain and we should try to protect people from emotional pain.  Yet somehow that doesn't extend to fucking nazis and the KKK. 

 

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

Now, if we're talking, say, the Westboro case, I'd agree.  Speech can cause emotional pain.  It has been demonstrated that emotional pain is actually more harmful than physical pain.  Individuals should have the right to be protected from speech that inflicts emotional harm -- when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy (and I think a funeral is a reasonable expectation of privacy).  

No circle.  It would extend to nazis and the KKK.

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@Kalbear are those the injuries reported prior to car driving into the crowd of counter protesters? I've seen tweets with images of the injured but no media coverage to this point.

 

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

How is the threat so urgent that you (and others here) feel that it needs to be met with violence? Are the neo-nazis attacking people in the streets? If that's the case, then by all means Leslie Scott-Jones should defend herself and her family by any means necessary. In absence of that, a violent physical reaction to an ideology that you find to be abhorrent is not reasonable, legal or warranted.

Yes, the neo-nazis and KKKers etc. came wearing full combat gear, wearing guns openly, carrying shields and clubs, parading about the streets with torche -- and are physically attacking people in the streets of Charlottesville.  Man, have you not looked at the photos and videos of what's happening there, and what is being said?

Yes, they come at me with their guns, their mace, their torches, their clubs and not only wish to burn down my house, but also kill me and my family.  I am not going to just stand there and not fight with weapons to defend my family and my home.  Don't tell me I should not. They brought it, and brought it deliberately with long malicious forethought, and the longer no one fights back, the more of it they do.

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That was from last night. The car plowing thing just happened. 

Terrorist organizations do not have a specific right for peaceable assembly. 

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6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The neonazis and white supremacists are heavily involved in police forces around the country as well as being guards in prisons at an alarming rate. 

When you suggest the police should handle it, you're suggesting a police system run by white supremacists that has routinely been racist and biased is the right course of action to handle white supremacy, and you do this with actual belief this is correct. 

The charlottesville riots have left two people in serious condition and the Virginia governor has declared a state of emergency. Where were the riot police? Where were the swat vans? 

I agree that this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. That said, I'm seeing photos and video of riot police all over those news reports. It seems fair to say that they were ill-prepared for the level of violence that occurred, but they are present.

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Seli said:

Rule of law. Arrest them, show that they are actively threatening other people in the USA in the courts and lock them up. Clean up the people in power who have protected them for so long, you have elections for that or the courts.

 

But when the police and courts are not protecting me, my family and home, then what?  Jeff Sessions has no interest at all in protecting me and mine from these people -- they are HIS people.

Again, THEY brought it.  They came to this city to do as much violence and mayem as possible.  Yet, you think they should have been issued a permit to do this -- and they were -- in the interest of preserving free speech, when their stated objective is to shut down all speech except theirs.  Those who advocate that should not be allowed the privilege or right to exercise that speech directed at silencing every one else.

Edited by Zorral

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2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Yes, they come at me with their guns, their mace, their torches, their clubs and not only wish to burn down my house, but also kill me and my family.  I am not going to just stand there and not fight with weapons to defend my family and my home.  Don't tell me I should not. They brought it, and brought it deliberately with long malicious forethought, and the longer no one fights back, the more of it they do.

Absolutely. I'm in full agreement with that sentiment. At that point, it becomes self-defense which is entirely reasonable and acceptable. 

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1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I agree that this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. That said, I'm seeing photos and video of riot police all over those news reports. It seems fair to say that they were ill-prepared for the level of violence that occurred, but they are present.

They weren't present when a car was used to hit dozens of counterprotestors. 

They weren't present last night to stop the beating of two counterprotestors. 

You say you agree and then completely ignore the point. If the police are not able to stop these attacks and issues from becoming public safety concerns, why are you arguing that the police are the solution? That's a great ought to answer but it ignores the reality. 

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18 minutes ago, Seli said:

Rule of law. Arrest them, show that they are actively threatening other people in the USA in the courts and lock them up. Clean up the people in power who have protected them for so long, you have elections for that or the courts.

 

I have found that doing the above, and laughing at them really scrambles their credibility. I seem to remember the occupiers  of the national park complaining about the number of dildos being sent to them. Spreading word of actions like that reduced any credibility they then had to less than zero. Was it coincidence that the occupation fizzled soon after? Post photos, take names and send them dildos. Lots and lots of dildos. With any luck they won't breed.

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Holy Fuck, what a shitshow. I haven't been following this minute to minute up to now. This is the sort of escalation that goes hand in hand with what we have been talking about. 

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1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

They weren't present when a car was used to hit dozens of counterprotestors. 

They weren't present last night to stop the beating of two counterprotestors. 

You say you agree and then completely ignore the point. If the police are not able to stop these attacks and issues from becoming public safety concerns, why are you arguing that the police are the solution? That's a great ought to answer but it ignores the reality. 

They can't be everywhere at once though, can they? Obviously the local authorities underestimated the size scope and tenor of this protest. After last night, you'd think they'd have ratcheted up the security. I do agree that this is a failure on the part of the authorities. The second so called "peaceful protesters" show up armed to the teeth and wearing para-military gear then mass arrests should be made. I'm with you on that point.

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9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I agree that this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. That said, I'm seeing photos and video of riot police all over those news reports. It seems fair to say that they were ill-prepared for the level of violence that occurred, but they are present.

if this had been a previously scheduled blm protest we would have had no shortage of cops. 

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They weren't present when a car was used to hit dozens of counterprotestors. 

They weren't present last night to stop the beating of two counterprotestors. 

You say you agree and then completely ignore the point. If the police are not able to stop these attacks and issues from becoming public safety concerns, why are you arguing that the police are the solution? That's a great ought to answer but it ignores the reality. 

And when they were present they allowed Nazis to make physical contact with them in their SWAT line without repercussions.

----------

A car plows into crowds in Europe and it's a terrorist attack. Pro Tip : it's also a terrorist attack in Charlottesville VA.

NBC is covering it now. They showed the video and among other things it looks like a woman was pinned between the bumper of the ramming car and a stopped  car ahead. Along with all the people hit when it came in and then backed out. 

Edited by kairparavel

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3 minutes ago, kairparavel said:

And when they were present they allowed Nazis to make physical contact with them in their SWAT line without repercussions.

----------

A car plows into crowds in Europe and it's a terrorist attack. Pro Tip : it's also a terrorist attack in Charlottesville VA.

Agreed. Any news on whether or not they managed to arrest the driver?

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Posted (edited)

n/m

Edited by Nasty LongRider

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Agreed. Any news on whether or not they managed to arrest the driver?

According to CNN the driver has been apprehended. Details beyond that have yet to be revealed. 

Edited by Ghjhero

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30 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

 

No circle.  It would extend to nazis and the KKK.

All of your posts have explicitly not included nazis and the kkk.  You've stated over and over that nazis and the kkk should be protected despite the fact that they cause intense emotional harm to significant portions of the population, though you seem to think that emotional harm shouldn't occur....I guess only if it's the WBC.  

 

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