norwaywolf123

Beyond the Wall Discussion

32 posts in this topic

Disclaimer

English is not my first language, correct me to help improve my english skill. 

Text me if you want me to add a question or think that i have missed something.

Questions

1. Does anyone know if this website "http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page" is accurate and covers all the information?

2. Will we learn more about the peeoples beyond the wall? What are their tribal customes, traditions, religous beliefs, mythology, way of life? 

3. Could you imagine a ASOIAF spinoff of Beyond the Wall? How do you imagine a spinoff would look like and what would it be about?

4. Does the "Freefolk" have much andal blood? What are physical traits that are Andal in orgin?

"If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man."

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

5. How will the Freefolk integrate into the North and Westeros? Will they integrate? Will they assimilate the people around them?

6. What form does Law and Order take beyond the wall? Does any societies there have enough law and order to prosper and progress?

Other:

Sources:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Beyond_the_Wall

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Free_folk

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wall

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night's_Watch

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others

Edited by norwaywolf123

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1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Disclaimer

English is not my first language, correct me to help improve my english skill. 

Text me if you want me to add a question or think that i have missed something.

Questions

1. Does anyone know if this website "http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page" is accurate and covers all the information?

The Wiki of Ice and Fire used to be a very incomplete source w/ many mistakes and "assumptions" some years back. 

And thanks to many people who have worked (and continue to work) very hard it is the great tool/source it is today. I wish I could name everyone, but sadly I can't. I know some of those people we owe our thanks to are @Rhaenys_Targaryen, @Nittanian, and many others. 

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2. Will we learn more about the peeoples beyond the wall? What are their tribal costumes, religous beliefs, mythology? 

We have learned a little already. I think we will learn more, but not everything there is to learn. 

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3. Could you imagine a ASOIAF spinoff of Beyond the Wall? How do you imagine a spinoff would look like and what would it be about?

Not really.

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4. Does the "Freefolk" have much andal blood? What are physical traits that are Andal in orgin?

Nope. It is possible there's a drop here and there, but it will be minimal. The Andal "look" is mostly blonde w/ blue/green eyes. 

Quote

"If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man."

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

 

 

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5. How will the Freefolk integrate into the North and Westeros? Will they integrate? Will they assimilate the people around them?

 

It will be a bumpy ride, but it will happen imo.

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6. What form does Law and Order take beyond the wall? Does any societies there have enough law and order to prosper and progress?

 

That depends on what you think is "enough law and order to prosper and progress". It's all in where you're standing. 

We know the Thenns are closer to northerners south of the Wall. We know the free folk have customs and beliefs and such, but we haven't been given an awful lot of details on any of that yet. 

<sni

 

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1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

4. Does the "Freefolk" have much andal blood? What are physical traits that are Andal in orgin?

They should have none to very little Andal blood. Only from rape by Andal NW members and from the rare enslaved Northmen with Andal blood.

As to physical traits - blonde/red-hair and round face. And handsome/pretty.

"Horseface", dark hair and unattractive are said to be the "Stark look", so I guess that these might be extended to other Northmen/First Men.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That depends on what you think is "enough law and order to prosper and progress". It's all in where you're standing. 

We know the Thenns are closer to northerners south of the Wall. We know the free folk have customs and beliefs and such, but we haven't been given an awful lot of details on any of that yet. 

They need to develop a way of economics to empower the country. A trend of technological progress.

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8 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

They need to develop a way of economics to empower the country. A trend of technological progress.

At very least, the Thenns have made better advancements in metallurgy than the rest of the Wildlings. Their political structure is more advanced, living in a feudal state rather than family-based tribes and clans. We don't know enough about them to say much more.

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The religion seems to be mostly Old Gods, perhaps with some Moonsinging thrown in for good measure.

I don't think they have specific tribal costumes.

There may be more info on their culture, but it's hard to say. The last two books have a lot to cover. If anything from their folklore or religion is important to defeating the Others we will get that info.

Law and order are basically as long as you don't mess with anyone else's life or stuff you're fine. The Thenns have a bit more structure, having a clan leader who is obeyed. Mostly the free folk go where they like, with who they like, and follow someone only of their own free will. If they don't like what the man they've chosen to follow is doing, they can leave with no consequences. If they want to try and become King-Beyond-the-Wall they're welcome to do that. If they want to go live in a hut on the seacoast away from everyone else, that's okay too.

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15 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't think they have specific tribal costumes.

In some other thread (no idea which it had been, but this was within the last week or so) a poster quoted Ygritte on strong egzogamy among the Free Folk.

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1 minute ago, TMIFairy said:

In some other thread (no idea which it had been, but this was within the last week or so) a poster quoted Ygritte on strong egzogamy among the Free Folk.

That's a custom, not a costume. 

@norwaywolf123 did you mean customs in question 2?

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12 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a custom, not a costume. 
@norwaywolf123

LOL!

I goofed, didn't I?

Or I need better glasses :)

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2 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

LOL!

I goofed, didn't I?

Or I need better glasses :)

It's possible that norwaywolf123 did mean customs. There was a request that we help with the English and those two words are easy to mix up.

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I hadn't even noticed it says 'costumes' in the OP... 

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a custom, not a costume. 

@norwaywolf123 did you mean customs in question 2?

Will we get more information about the freefolk or are they gonna become a backwater? How do the cave dwellers find food and water? Have cave dwellers changed physically compared to other humans? Generally about who the free folk are and why they are that way?

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1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

egzogamy

You mean exogamy? :) 

 

Edited by norwaywolf123

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23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I hadn't even noticed it says 'costumes' in the OP... 

Sorry my fault

4 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

At very least, the Thenns have made better advancements in metallurgy than the rest of the Wildlings. Their political structure is more advanced, living in a feudal state rather than family-based tribes and clans. We don't know enough about them to say much more.

The Thenns occupy the best soil beyond the wall their valley named thenn is heated by hot springs and is the most temperate area. I think they would have needed a better, more stable system of organising inorder to hold the land.

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2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

LOL!

I goofed, didn't I?

Or I need better glasses :)

 

50 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

You mean exogamy? :) 

 

7 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Disclaimer

English is not my first language, correct me to help improve my english skill. 

Seems you were able to help another correct their spelling errors. You learn fast.

51 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

The Thenns occupy the best soil beyond the wall their valley named thenn is heated by hot springs and is the most temperate area.

Perhaps you can help me. There is so much information in these five books that I forget half of what was written. Would you talk about how you came to the that conclusion?

 

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8 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Disclaimer

English is not my first language, correct me to help improve my english skill. 

No worries. There are English speakers here that sound like they have mouths full of 'gator meat at any given time. You are just fine :thumbsup:

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2. Will we learn more about the peeoples beyond the wall? What are their tribal customes, traditions, religous beliefs, mythology, way of life? 

If we do, then only by tales we are told by one or two somewhere in the last two books. Those north of the wall are merging and marrying in to those south of the wall, so whoever is left after whatever the long night ends up being will share tales... but we readers may not get to hear too many.

The only other thing I can think of is if we get the Dunk & Egg tale She-Wolves of Winterfell and there is somehow tales added in to that story.

As far as customs, well, the links you provided below are good sources, as are the books themselves. We also know that George takes a lot in his inspiration for the north from Norse mythology. That is always handy to know, but certainly not required to understand ASOIAF. It just makes it more fun to figure out. We do know that both those in the north and north of the wall both follow the old gods, which is an animistic religion based on Norse mythology.

I think one of the biggest difference in custom from north of the wall and south is the custom of marriage/stealing. It is the term "stealing" that acts a translation issue. But we readers know better because ultimately it is up to the woman who decides:

  • "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." (This is a custom that George uses over and over, practically word for word, in all of his books that include relationships)
  • In marriage, the men are expected to be quite forceful with women, going so far as stealing them from their home or clan. The women, in turn, are expected to put up a fight every step of the way.[1] It is believed that a true man will steal a woman from afar to strengthen the clan. Men must steal daughters, but not wives of other men. When the red wanderer is within the Moonmaid, it is considered a propitious time for a man to steal a woman.[8]

    While "stealing" may be very different from the idealized courtly love of Westeros, at its core it establishes a male's strength and determination, as well as a female's independence and ability to defend herself.

As far as costumes, I don't think there is anything more than what you have pointed out; furs, basic leathers, some basic scaled bronze armour, items they have looted off of people, etc.

The only other thing I would add to this is Dalla's "queen's" outfit of all white snow bear fur. Dalla is the figurative queen above the north and she wears her white furs and amber jewelry. Later Val inherits these and wears them for a special occasion. That is significant. Here is a good bit of info from Mance:

  • "I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."
  • "The crow commands, the captive must obey." Her tone was playful. "This queen of yours must be fierce if the legs of grown men give out beneath them when they meet her. Should I have dressed in mail instead of wool and fur? These clothes were given to me by Dalla, I would sooner not get bloodstains all over them."
    "If words drew blood, you might have cause to fear. I think your clothes are safe enough, my lady."
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3. Could you imagine a ASOIAF spinoff of Beyond the Wall? How do you imagine a spinoff would look like and what would it be about?

Not really because after the wall is down, as Jojen says, "the land is one". There probably will not be any boundaries left, and/or, no people that far north anymore.

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4. Does the "Freefolk" have much andal blood? What are physical traits that are Andal in orgin?

It is virtually all first men blood, but as pointed out above by another poster in the George SSM, those along the "borders" probably have some Andal blips in their genetic make-up.

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5. How will the Freefolk integrate into the North and Westeros? Will they integrate? Will they assimilate the people around them?

 

Yes, the free folk will assimilate. It will not be easy, there will be disagreements, but as George says in a blog post of his, integration like this takes a generation or two to work out. The book characters seem to know this as well:

  • Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you."
    She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.
  • "Different," she said, "but more like us."
"Aye, my lady. The Thenns have lords and laws." They know how to kneel. "They mine tin and copper for bronze, forge their own arms and armor instead of stealing it. A proud folk, and brave. Mance Rayder had to best the old Magnar thrice before Styr would accept him as King-Beyond-the-Wall."
  • I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey."
Also, we know that the free folk follow their chosen clan leader and the clan leader sets the "example". There is a saying in the books, "by night all cloaks are black," and that means a lot more than it seems to mean on a first reading. Everyone is about to go through hell, and the fastest way to unit a broken up kingdom is to introduce a terrifying threat to all of them.
 
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These are pretty much it besides the books themselves.

The only thing I would add is that George has said the Wall in ASOIAF is based on Hadrian's wall, and this includes the political element as well as the irrational fear those on the south side of Hadrian's wall had of those on the other side. They thought the Scots were monsters and evil stealing thieves. Sound familiar? ;)

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Disclaimer

English is not my first language, correct me to help improve my english skill. 

Text me if you want me to add a question or think that i have missed something.

Questions

1. Does anyone know if this website "http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page" is accurate and covers all the information?

It is as accurate as a rabid fanbase can be 

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

2. Will we learn more about the peeoples beyond the wall? What are their tribal customes, traditions, religous beliefs, mythology, way of life? 

We have learned a lot about a number of tribes of free folk. Some are good, some are bad. Most if not all follow the old gods. Some are cannibals and some like the Thenn are organized in a way very similarly to folks below the wall.

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

3. Could you imagine a ASOIAF spinoff of Beyond the Wall? How do you imagine a spinoff would look like and what would it be about?

 Since the land beyond the wall is now almost fully depopulated by humans, I don't think so 

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

4. Does the "Freefolk" have much andal blood? What are physical traits that are Andal in orgin?

"If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man."

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Everyone in westeros has a lot of andal blood. The free folk often raid and kidnap people from south of the wall and have children with them. Also, members of the watch will often father children with wildlings so yes, they do.  GRRM does not go into detail about physical andal traits so we really can't tell 

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

5. How will the Freefolk integrate into the North and Westeros? Will they integrate? Will they assimilate the people around them?

Many will die in conflict before they bend the knee and assimilate into the culture of the north. Luckily, they keep the same gods of the north so they have that in common 

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

6. What form does Law and Order take beyond the wall? Does any societies there have enough law and order to prosper and progress?

 Tribal and area specific. The Thenn have established laws and leaders. The rest tend to follow strength 

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13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No worries. There are English speakers here that sound like they have mouths full of 'gator meat at any given time. You are just fine :thumbsup:

What's a girl no bout gator meat? A girl knows about crab meant especially da blue ones.

Besides @norwaywolf123 speaks good or is that well enough in other threads.

A Storm of Swords - Jon V      After. The word was a spear thrust. After the war. After the conquest. After the wildlings break the Wall . . .His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on."

 

Might be LC Snow planed/plans on revisiting the ^ dream ---  except that after all the wars are finished it will be wildlings settling the Gift?

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19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Seems you were able to help another correct their spelling errors. You learn fast.

Tx

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Perhaps you can help me. There is so much information in these five books that I forget half of what was written. Would you talk about how you came to the that conclusion?

"Hidden valleys sustaining small numbers of people exist in the Frostfangs.[6] The Thenns live in one such valley in the northern Frostfangs."

I just remeber that the valley the Thenns inhabit is supposed to be one of the larger heated springs valleys. The rest is just me making conclusion based on knowledge i had in the back of my head.

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