if 2 heads of houses are married - are the houses merge?

[Daena the Defiant]

On 8/13/2017 at 7:26 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There is no guarantee that the daughter then becomes the heir though. If Lord Alric has a nephew named Philbert, he could be Oakheart heir. Particularly if it was understood when Alenna married the heir to Lord Fossoway that her children would be considered Fossoways, not Oakhearts.

However, assuming there is no nephew or other distant male relative, the most likely outcome is not a merger of the two houses, but Alenna's second or third son being named Oakheart heir and taking the Oakheart name when he goes to live at Old Oaks.

 

Just to kick it around a little further. So we have Ser Arwen, the Oakheart heir, safely married to Rynne Rowan, daughter of Lady Rowena of House Rowan (just because I want it to be a lady regnant of Goldengrove for no real reason), Lady Alenna is married to Theos Fossaway, new Lord of New Barrel..... and - plot twist- there was a third Oakheart sibling, a younger sister, umm, Arwyse.

Ser Arven corks off on schedule within our imaginary scenario before siring any little acorns in his Rowan wife. Lady Alenna has given her Fossaway husband three children,  Jon, the heir to New Barrel, his little brother Joss, and a new baby girl, Jennet. 

Old Lord Oakheart has a spare heir(ess), the teen aged daughter Arwyse. Nothing much of a dowry was set aside for her (Alenna as the oldest daughter got the fat dowry to attract a high ranking husband... Lord Oakheart was thinking of pushing his extra daughter into the Faith) , so she has no husband or fiance from a middling house to push for her.

If Lady Alenna knew the deal when she married into House Fossaway (that she was quitting her claim to Old Oaks), but then her brother died, even though she is well situated as Lady of House Fossaway, could she attempt to exclude her little sister Arwyse in favor of one of her sons? And what would be preferable to Tyrell HQ?   This is where the reciprocal duty between the Tyrell overlord and his Oakheart vassal kicks in (they are supposed to safeguard and enforce valid inheritance claims).  Suppose that Lady Arwyse does have her own promised husband, a lesser Florent son, or even an heir to a third tier house so now we have the Fossaways vying against that other family - what's a wise Lord of Highgarden to do?

[Eurybia]

2 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Just to kick it around a little further. So we have Ser Arwen, the Oakheart heir, safely married to Rynne Rowan, daughter of Lady Rowena of House Rowan (just because I want it to be a lady regnant of Goldengrove for no real reason), Lady Alenna is married to Theos Fossaway, new Lord of New Barrel..... and - plot twist- there was a third Oakheart sibling, a younger sister, umm, Arwyse.

Ser Arven corks off on schedule within our imaginary scenario before siring any little acorns in his Rowan wife. Lady Alenna has given her Fossaway husband three children,  Jon, the heir to New Barrel, his little brother Joss, and a new baby girl, Jennet. 

Old Lord Oakheart has a spare heir(ess), the teen aged daughter Arwyse. Nothing much of a dowry was set aside for her (Alenna as the oldest daughter got the fat dowry to attract a high ranking husband... Lord Oakheart was thinking of pushing his extra daughter into the Faith) , so she has no husband or fiance from a middling house to push for her.

If Lady Alenna knew the deal when she married into House Fossaway (that she was quitting her claim to Old Oaks), but then her brother died, even though she is well situated as Lady of House Fossaway, could she attempt to exclude her little sister Arwyse in favor of one of her sons? And what would be preferable to Tyrell HQ?   This is where the reciprocal duty between the Tyrell overlord and his Oakheart vassal kicks in (they are supposed to safeguard and enforce valid inheritance claims).  Suppose that Lady Arwyse does have her own promised husband, a lesser Florent son, or even an heir to a third tier house so now we have the Fossaways vying against that other family - what's a wise Lord of Highgarden to do?

If little Joss becomes lord of Old Oaks, one assumes his father would be his regent (or lordly equivalent). I think that might depend on Lord Tyrell's relationship with the current crop of apples, both green and red. Also, if it comes down to a boy lord vs a female heir with a betrothed in his prime, I wonder if Arwyse would take precedence. What was it Rose Bolton said about boy lords? (But then consider the source, so....)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/15/2017 at 9:36 PM, Daena the Defiant said:

Just to kick it around a little further. So we have Ser Arwen, the Oakheart heir, safely married to Rynne Rowan, daughter of Lady Rowena of House Rowan (just because I want it to be a lady regnant of Goldengrove for no real reason), Lady Alenna is married to Theos Fossaway, new Lord of New Barrel..... and - plot twist- there was a third Oakheart sibling, a younger sister, umm, Arwyse.

Ser Arven corks off on schedule within our imaginary scenario before siring any little acorns in his Rowan wife. Lady Alenna has given her Fossaway husband three children,  Jon, the heir to New Barrel, his little brother Joss, and a new baby girl, Jennet. 

Old Lord Oakheart has a spare heir(ess), the teen aged daughter Arwyse. Nothing much of a dowry was set aside for her (Alenna as the oldest daughter got the fat dowry to attract a high ranking husband... Lord Oakheart was thinking of pushing his extra daughter into the Faith) , so she has no husband or fiance from a middling house to push for her.

If Lady Alenna knew the deal when she married into House Fossaway (that she was quitting her claim to Old Oaks), but then her brother died, even though she is well situated as Lady of House Fossaway, could she attempt to exclude her little sister Arwyse in favor of one of her sons? And what would be preferable to Tyrell HQ?   This is where the reciprocal duty between the Tyrell overlord and his Oakheart vassal kicks in (they are supposed to safeguard and enforce valid inheritance claims).  Suppose that Lady Arwyse does have her own promised husband, a lesser Florent son, or even an heir to a third tier house so now we have the Fossaways vying against that other family - what's a wise Lord of Highgarden to do?

Excellent example and questions. In such a situation it's either going to be decided based on how forward-thinking all parties are per females inheriting, any tradition the Oakhearts have regarding such, who the Tyrells favor, etc.

Solution 1: Assuming Arwyse is betrothed to a non-heir, make little Joss the heir to Old Oaks, with Arwyse's betrothed/husband the local equivalent of Lord Protector once Old Lord Oakheart dies, to run the estates until the boy comes of age, and make sure Joss gets a proper education and upbringing.

Solution 1 1/2: If Arwyse has no betrothed or husband, announce that the man she marries will act as protector for her nephew until he comes of age. She is now in a position to receive some offers. No major fortune or title-hunters will apply for a job where they only get control temporarily, so she can be wed to a decent man who is fine with protecting his nephew's interests and raising him, because it means a comfortable life in a castle. Hopefully Joss will think of his uncle as a second father and not toss him out come his 16th name day.

Solution 2: name Arwyse Lady of Old Oaks, which will then attract suitors for her hand. Little Joss Fossaway doesn't necessarily lose anything by this as he is the spare to his brother Jon the heir. In Westeros you never know when a second son will end up inheriting. 

Solution 3: If Arwyse' betrothed is heir to his own house, she doesn't need to stay at Old Oaks, give it to Joss. 

Solution 4: Give Old Oaks to Arwyse, with the caveat that should she die childless, Jennet will inherit. Betroth Joss to an infant heiress so his future is set no matter what happens.

Solution 5: If Arwyse has no betrothed, deposit her with the Silent Sisters, give Old Oaks to Joss, betroth Jennet to newly born heir to another house. Then kick back with a glass of wine and call it a day.

Solution 6: Let Old Lord Oakheart name his own heir and stay out of it.

Solution 7: Assuming a squabble after Old Lord Oakheart dies, advise all parties to petition the crown to sort it out. Congratulate yourself on dodging a flaming pile of poo. At least until the crown kicks it back and says it's your problem, not theirs.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/14/2017 at 0:15 AM, TMIFairy said:

The idea of a ban on inter-realms marriages between the Great Houses cropped up in a thread which had drifted into "improve Targaryen rule" territory.

I wonder if actually the Crown might have less say over marriages of the Great Houses than Great Houses have over those of their bannermen.

My explanation - dragons

At Conquest the Targs forced the ex-Royal - and now just Great - Houses to intermarry (I know of Arryn/Stark - were there other?) as to knit the Seven Kingdoms together. And later the Targs had no need to have a say over the marriages of Great Houses as they had dragons. So, no precedent set in the past as to the Crown having something to say over e.g. Starks marrying Martells.

After the dragons were gone the Targs did not have the power to impose such limitations on the Great Houses - Aegon Vth wished to work with said Great Houses - whereas most Targs were self-delusioned as to the might of the Crown and did not care.

Whereas the "local Kings" never had dragons and thus HAD the need for control over their bannermen's marriage alliances. 

This duality - "Starks/Arryns/Tyrells can, while Targs cannot" - may be likened to the "line item veto" in the USA - the POTUS does not have such a power while many State Governers have it.

Just a hypothesis

You may have something there. I was thinking in terms of real history, but real history lacked badass fire lizards and magic swords. Every once in a while we all need to remember there are limits to the realism.

Love your explanation of Daeron and Mariah's situation, BTW.

[Angel Eyes]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:07 AM, Dofs said:

I would expect that someone would concede their inheritance to another heir (most likely a woman), or their children would inherit different Houses. Houses in Westeros don't merge.

This is why the Tyrion/Sansa marriage shouldn't have gotten off the ground. Where do the titles go?

[TMIFairy]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You may have something there. I was thinking in terms of real history, but real history lacked badass fire lizards and magic swords. Every once in a while we all need to remember there are limits to the realism.

Love your explanation of Daeron and Mariah's situation, BTW.

IMO this board needs more levity and humour

Too much "to the death!" poking with blunt forks between fans of various theories or with differing views of the characters.

34 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

This is why the Tyrion/Sansa marriage shouldn't have gotten off the ground. Where do the titles go?

Cersei had it all worked out

Sansa, having no living trueborn brothers, gets the North and Tyrion is her Lord-Consort; Tyrion gives up claim to Westerlands and passes it to Tommen.

Another possibility, NOT to Cersei liking but possibly heart-warming to Lawful Neutral minded members of this board who hate the "might makes right" aspect of Law:

Sansa gives up claim to the North, passing it to Arya, and becomes Lady-Consort to Tyrion, Lord of the Westerlands.

I'm sure imaginative people can come up with other scenarios which fit the needs of Houses Lannister and Baratheon of Kings Landing at that time and place.

 

[1000th Lord Commander]

It is very much a situational thing. For example, at the end of DwD, we have the lordships of Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Dragonstone (attainted) all vacant. Tommen, as the last surviving male 'Baratheon' and his mother's immediate heir, is set to inherit all three under our rules of inheritance, after the passing of his mother, who has claimed Casterly Rock in her own name. But Tommen is King.

So it's likely that other options will be found. Trystane and Myrcella will probably be gifted with one upon thier marriage, let's say Dragonstone. Casterly Rock, provided Ceresi has no more children, would go to a approproiate Lannister cousin. For Storm's End, they could nominate one of Robert's Bastards, Likely Edric Storm, or possibly marry Mya Stone off to another cousin, who will take the Baratheon name.