Those who sing the Song. A theory.

[northern_amnesia]

Hi everyone! I've been re-reading the books and came with an idea that i'd like to share. 

 

I see a red door and I want it painted black: The Long Night that NEVER Ends

 

There are few things in the history of Westeros that we can accept to be true. In most cases, we see trough the text that legends and Old Nan stories, are more reliable than the maesters “knowledge”.

 

What do we know?

·         First Men arrived to Westeros some 10000 years ago

·         They fought the COF but after a bloody war in wich the COF are losing.  They SIGN A PACT: they agree to a peaceful coexistence, signing the Pact on the Isle of Faces. This pact gives the First Men dominion over the open lands and lets the children keep control over the forested areas. In time, the First Men adopt the worship of the old gods of the forest.

·         After that came the “Age of Heroes” An era during the history of Westeros, which would be named so later for the great men and women who live in the years of peace and prosperity following the forging of the Pact. The Pact endures for nearly four thousand years, and in that time, the children of the forest and the First Men grow closer. Many of the noble houses of Westeros today trace their lineage back to the Age of Heroes. This was the time when grand historical figures are said to have lived, such as Brandon the Builder, founder of House Stark; Lann the Clever, founder of House Lannister, who winkles Casterly Rock from the Casterlys; or Garth the Gardener, founder of House Gardener of the Reach. Also during this era the Storm Kings of House Durrandon arise in the stormlands—a line with figures such as the founding Durran, supposed builder of Storm's End—and the Grey King rules the ironborn of the Iron Islands.

·         In this time, night seems to last for a generation, and the longest, coldest and darkest winter descends on Westeros. The ice spreads down from the north, and under the cover of darkness, the Others invade Westeros from the uttermost north, marching, killing and raising up the dead to be their servants in unlife and nearly destroying all men in Westeros. The Long Night comes to an end with the Battle for the Dawn. The children and the First Men unite to defeat the Others with dragonglass weapons, with the Night's Watch pushing them back into the frozen reaches of the far north. Legendary figures from this time include the last hero and Azor Ahai, who wields a great sword of fire, Lightbringer

·         The Wall: With the Others defeated, Bran the Builder, with the aid of giants, the First Men, and perhaps the children of the forest, raises the Wall, a monumental fortification of ice and ancient magic, to shelter the realms of men from the menaces of the north. The Sworn Brotherhood of the Night's Watch guards the Wall

·         Night’s King: Not long after the Wall is complete, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch breaks his oath. He is seduced by an Other woman from beyond the Wall, declares himself the Night's King, and rises in rebellion with the Watch as his personal army. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities are committed, of which tales are still told in the north even after several millennia. The Starks of Winterfell and the King-beyond-the-Wall, Joramun, join forces to defeat the Night's King and thus restore honor to the Watch. This is the same Joramun who also finds the Horn of Winter, which he is said to use to awaken giants from the earth.

 

So, we know that FM and COF signed a pact in which the children would be in control of the forested areas, but, we’ve seen that the COF are stuck in a cave beyond the Wall, basically singing sad songs and they really don’t have control of the forested areas. In fact men are the bane to the forested areas, even when they are in relative small numbers:

“The Night's Watch permitted the forest to come no closer than half a mile of the north face of the Wall. The thickets of ironwood and sentinel and oak that had once grown there had been harvested centuries ago, to create a broad swath of open ground through which no enemy could hope to pass unseen. Tyrion had heard that elsewhere along the Wall, between the three fortresses, the wildwood had come creeping back over the decades, that there were places where grey-green sentinels and pale white weirwoods had taken root in the shadow of the Wall itself, but Castle Black had a prodigious appetite for firewood, and here the forest was still kept at bay by the axes of the black brothers.” Tyrion III – AGOT

 

So, you a have a group of creatures that are apparently strong in magic, that are tree (nature in general) worshipers, that made a pact with men in which THEY had control over the forested areas, that HELPED men fight the ice demons and put the Night’s Watch SOUTH of the Wall… yet the watch is feeding their appetite for firewood north of the wall..

 

It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill. Bran III – ADWD

 

Except the Children would fight, the children would kill. They did it before they signed the pact, why not doing it again? Men FAILED TO THEY PART OF THE PACT, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

But against all odds, the children apparently did nothing and thus “THE AGE OF HEROES” begun. “An era during the history of Westeros, which would be named so later for the great men and women who live in the years of peace and prosperity following the forging of the Pact”

But, that’s not exactly true, is it? When you read about those great families, you see that they were at war CONSTANTLY. They barely lived in peace; maybe there was prosperity for a couple of great lords, but the rest were far from “peace and prosperity”.

But then, something happened. A race of apparent “demons” came from the north, and nobody knows EXACTLY why.

But there’s a legend in Essos that might explain the reason of this terrible event.

“The Opal Emperor was the seventh ruler of a line that began with the God-on-Earth, the son of the Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of Night. He was succeeded by his daughter, the Amethyst Empress, but her younger brother, envious, cast her down and slew her, taking the crown and proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor. He turned his back on the gods of Yi Ti and began worshiping a black stone that had fallen from the skies, took a tiger-woman as wife, practiced cannibalism and necromancy, and enslaved his own people. Horrified at the Blood Betrayal, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world and the Lion of Night came forth in all his fury to punish the wickedness of man”

 

Funnily, we’ve seen an almost identical event that happened in Westeros, an event that unleashed a war that caused the death of thousands of people and the extinction of dragons: The Dance of Dragons.

Long story short, The Dance of the Dragons was a civil war for succession between Aegon II and his half-sister Rhaenyra over their father Viserys I's throne. Basically the younger brother stole his sister’s throne. Little detail, Aegon’s mother was a Hightower who’s tower lays upon a massive black stone. The outcome of the war was the extinction of dragons (at least Valyrian dragons) and the slow path to obsession that would led the Targaryens to near extinction.

During the dance, LOTS dragons (around 20) were involved in different battles… can you imagine the level of destruction? But that’s not all, after the dance, and up until the moment that our story begins, other 12 wars followed. It’s like having a war every 13 years. Can you imagine that?

 

Still, in the midst of the apparently great, peaceful and prosper “Age of Heroes”,  “the Others invade Westeros from the uttermost north”. And for some reason the COF help men to stop them.

"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it." "Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?" "That was my first thought as well." – Sam I – AFFC

So, the “Last Hero” an unnamed men, is supposed to slay “Others” with a blade made of a type of steel that clearly didn’t existed at the time. If “dragonsteel” is the same thing that “Valyrian steel” then, you need dragons to do it, right? But apparently there were no dragons in Westeros before or during the Long Night.

“The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King … we say that you're the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during—"  Jon II - ADWD

 

 So, let’s just pretend that is all true… the “Last Hero” had a sword made of a type of steel that could kill ice demons, yet when the Andals invaded wielding regular steel 4000 years later, they basically massacred the First Men:

“… yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea. " The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them” Bran VII - AGOT

The Andals came with steel and fire. So, after the Andals, swords were made of STEEL, right?

“The Iron Throne was constructed by Aegon I Targaryen, the first king of the Seven Kingdoms. Aegon the Conqueror had the throne made from the swords surrendered by his enemies. It is supposed to have taken a thousand blades to make, heated in the breath of Balerion the Black Dread. The hammering took fifty-nine days”

 

But the swords of Aegon enemies are made of IRON. Why would you fight a war with iron if you know how to make steel?

NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

But, the Wall is there so something must have happened, someone built it, right?

“The Night's Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men. Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead. Once the Watch spent its summers building, and each Lord Commander raised the Wall higher than he found it.” Tyrion III - AGOT

 

Nobody knows exactly who made the wall. But the wall was there right? So every LC spent its summers building, raising the Wall.

But we know the Wall is “magical”, so it can’t just be the work of men, right?

And here is when everything gets creepier.

 

“The Wall: With the Others defeated, Bran the Builder, with the aid of giants, the First Men, and perhaps the children of the forest, raises the Wall, a monumental fortification of ice and ancient magic, to shelter the realms of men from the menaces of the north. Night’s King: Not long after the Wall is complete, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch breaks his oath.”

 

It all started, or ended with the “Last Hero”, the man without a name and without a face, the last hope of men kind during the Long Night that NEVER ends.

"Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining." Cat II – ACOK

"My mother told me that dead men sing no songs," Prologue – AGOT

 

You see, for a place were ALL families seems to have AT LEAST one heroic figure, it’s just weird that the men who apparently was responsible of search, find and get the COF to help men kind against dead has NO NAME and NO FACE, NO WIFE OR LANDS OR CHILDREN, OR CROWN OR GLORY.  He was No One.

 

You think I’m crazy right?

 

What’s the symbol of Braavos? The Titan. Take a look at the Titan’s description:

“The Titan of Braavos. Old Nan had told them stories of the Titan back in Winterfell. He was a giant as tall as a mountain, and whenever Braavos stood in danger he would wake with fire in his eyes, his rocky limbs grinding and groaning as he waded out into the sea to smash the enemies. "The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls," Arya I – AFFC

 

“The feet of the statue lie on two separate islands, including Sellagoro's Shield, and each foot is set upon a mountain. The islands are covered in soldier pines and black spruce. The legs and lower torso are made of the same black granite that form the islands upon which it stands; they were originally a natural stone archway, which was carved and shaped by three generations of sculptors and stonemasons. Above the waist, the colossus is bronze, its body filled with halls and chambers, its bronze breastplate punctured with arrow slits. One hand rests on the top of a ridge, its bronze fingers wrapped around the stone. The other hand is thrust into the air, holding the hilt of a broken sword. The Titan's head, rising four hundred feet above sea level, is crested with a bronze halfhelm, and has green-dyed hempen rope for hair. In its eyes burn large beacon fires, lighting the way back inside the lagoon for returning ships. The Titan's hips are encased in an armored skirt of a green bronze hue, the bottom covered in murder holes. The Titan lets out a loud roar whenever a ship approaches its entrance, to warn the Arsenal of Braavos. The roar is huge, a terrible groaning and grinding blast so loud it drowns out most sounds nearby, and can be heard across the lagoon in the city. The Titan also roars to herald sunrise and sunset, and the hours of the day are counted by its roar”

Now, take a look at the Night’s Watch Vow:

 

“Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come”

 

The Titan is Wymar Royce. The Last Hero.

 

“Royce's body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places. Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy. He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Will knelt, looked around warily, and snatched it up. The broken sword would be his proof. Gared would know what to make of it, and if not him, then surely that old bear Mormont or Maester Aemon. Would Gared still be waiting with the horses? He had to hurry.”

 

Except Will never found Gared, and the “broken sword” never reached the Wall.

 

We know Wymar is a Royce a “bronze” Royce. The Titan is full of bronze. Wymar took no wife or lands and had no children. He never wore a crown and definitely won no glory.

And again, look at the Watch’s vows:

I am the sword in the darkness

The Titan’s sword hand is “thrust into the air, holding the hilt of a broken sword.”  Wymar ended up dead, in the darkness with a broken sword.

I am the watcher on the walls

The Titan is full of holes in which men look the ships that arrives at the lagoon

I am the fire that burns against the cold

Eyes of bacon fires

the light that brings the dawn

eyes that lead the way of ships

the horn that wakes the sleepers

titan’s roar. The titan’s roar can be heard at dawn, at sunset and when ships arrives.

the shield that guards the realms of men

The Titan is the first line of defense in Braavos.

So, if Waymar was indeed the Last Hero and failed miserably… what happened?

 

“The Wall, a monumental fortification of ice and ancient magic, to shelter the realms of men from the menaces of the north”

The Wall was made to SHELTER people during the Long Night. It was a safe place to stay during the end of the world.

Against all odds, the children helped men once again by giving them a safe place in which they could survive the invasion of “The Others”.

But humans can’t be trusted.

Not long after the Wall is complete, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch breaks his oath.

"Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Eddard IX – AGOT

 

This is my conclusion:

“they will surely sing of us” ” dead men sing no songs” ALL MEN MUST DIE.

"The First Men named us children," the little woman said. "The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years." Bran II – ADWD

Those who sing the song of earth… we had sung our songs ten thousand years.

The “song of ice & fire” is the song that those who sing the song of earth have been singing for ten thousand years. My guess, they are just giving men the chance to start over and prove that can be trusted. But every time, they fail miserably.

 

Thanks for reading! sorry for any errors, english is not my first language.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

This is pretty good. As far as we know the Wall wasn't started until after the Last Hero came back with the knowledge of how to defeat the others. The Night's Watch is formed, and they, the LH, and anyone else who's willing to fight defeat the Others, possibly with help from the CotF. 

The Wall is a precaution against the Others returning. It's a magical barrier that should keep them out of Westeros.

I like the symbolism of the Titan with the Last Hero, and Waymar Royce with the Last Hero. But Waymar Royce can't be a new Last Hero because he obviously lacks a sword that can kill Others and did not seek out the CotF to learn how to defeat the Others.

As to steel versus iron issues, we have to remember we're dealing with accounts written down hundreds to thousands of years later by maesters and septons. They would have used whatever words they thought best described what the stories told. The term "dragonsteel" might be one handed down through oral tradition, but it's unlikely be exactly the same as Valyrian Steel. That's what Jon and Sam think of because they associates dragons with Valyria and thus they think of Valyrian Steel. I have my own ideas about what dragonsteel was.

We have no mentions of dragons during the Age of Heroes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't exist. At one them they were all over the world, according to the author.

You may be on to something with the Titan of Braavos. I think the Titan memorializes the Last Hero. 

Now, no one seeming to know the Last Hero's name could be for any number of reasons. It could be that he disappeared, and his name faded from memory. Hey, maybe he went to, or helped found Braavos. It's also possible that he was Night's King, and his name was struck from history, and that's why no one knows it. A third option is that he never told anyone his name, or went by a pseudonym. Maybe didn't speak the same language as everyone else but was somehow able to communicate with the CotF. Perhaps he changed his name so Nissa Nissa's family didn't come after him for killing her. I'm hoping we get more info on this from GRRM.

The best fit right now for a current or new Last Hero is Bran. He's the one who is with the CotF to learn how to defeat the Others. But of course there are other things he lacks, and since Old Nan never did finish that story for us, we can't be certain yet.

Somewhere there is a theory that the earliest people to cross into Westeros (even before the First Men, or maybe the very first of the First Men) were proto-Valyrians, and may have been supporters of the Amethyst Empress who left after losing the war. This could explain the Daynes with their purple eyes and their potentially magic sword. There's another theory that the star from which the sword Dawn is made was actually a dragon.

I enjoyed reading the thread. You're very good at drawing connections. I knew the base of the hightower was black stone but you put that together in a way I hadn't thought of before. I wonder why Aegon and Rhaenyra didn't usher in a Long Night. Maybe it skips a blood betrayal? Or maybe the first one didn't cause the Long Night so much as happen right before it. At any rate, we may see another "blood betrayal" in the second Dance of the Dragons.

So if I understood this correctly, I think you're saying that the CotF are bringing the Others in an attempt to sort of hit a reset button on humanity and give them a clean slate?

[The Fattest Leech]

Very interesting.

Bookmarking.

[Damon_Tor]

8 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

But the swords of Aegon enemies are made of IRON. Why would you fight a war with iron if you know how to make steel?

Steel and Iron are more of a continuum. This isn't a contradiction.

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

You see, for a place were ALL families seems to have AT LEAST one heroic figure, it’s just weird that the men who apparently was responsible of search, find and get the COF to help men kind against dead has NO NAME and NO FACE, NO WIFE OR LANDS OR CHILDREN, OR CROWN OR GLORY.  He was No One.

His name was Brandon:

Quote

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here.

AWOIAF - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Oh, and he also had a wife -- but that's 'a tale in itself and not worth repeating'...

8 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

The “song of ice & fire” is the song that those who sing the song of earth have been singing for ten thousand years. My guess, they are just giving men the chance to start over and prove that can be trusted. But every time, they fail miserably.

 

That's interesting.  Why do they keep trusting men despite being let down so many times?

The solution is clear:  Brandon needs to sing a different song to the one Brandon chose to sing!

[northern_amnesia]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

As far as we know the Wall wasn't started until after the Last Hero came back with the knowledge of how to defeat the others. The Night's Watch is formed, and they, the LH, and anyone else who's willing to fight defeat the Others, possibly with help from the CotF. 

But we REALLY don't know, do we? I mean according to Old Nan the wildlings are basically blood drinking monsters, and we saw they're just people. Also, from what i've seen in that cave, Bran would probably never leave. When he arrives, BR tell him it's late, and honesty, i think the poor kid is there to feed BR with life. All those bones in the cave makes me think that Bran is not the first and won't be the last.

 

Quote

The Wall is a precaution against the Others returning. It's a magical barrier that should keep them out of Westeros.

 

We don't know. Don't you find strange that the Wall is made of ice? How ice is supposed to stop creatures  that not only are made of ice, but make things with ice? Would fire stop dragons? The Valyrians made wonderful things with stone thanks to their dragons, and as we've seen in Harrenhal, they melted stone. So i found really hard that WW would have any problems with ice. As for the "magic" of the Wall, we've seen over and over that magic is "sustained" with life, and the men of the NW literally gave their life to the Watch. My guess is that the magic only prevent this unnatural structure to fall.

 

Quote

As to steel versus iron issues, we have to remember we're dealing with accounts written down hundreds to thousands of years later by maesters and septons

 

I just think they are there for us to see discrepancies and suspect that something is wrong. But  i could be wrong. 

 

As for Bran, i think he's just a witness. I can't see any scenario where he leaves thee cave, and mostly for me there's no way he's not only the best greenseer ever and the Last Hero and human savior. It's just to much.

 

I'm not quite sure what the COF are doing, but i'm convinced that they won't help men. It's not reasonable for them to do it. Why would they? Men are destroying the land  they love and was theirs. The only scenario that i see in wich humans have a chance to "win" is ending with magic, and that means ending the COF.

 

Thanks so much for your comments!  and the time you took to write

[northern_amnesia]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Very interesting.

Bookmarking.

Thank you!

[northern_amnesia]

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

His name was Brandon:

No, read your quote again. Brandon was "the builder" not the hero.

 

Quote

That's interesting.  Why do they keep trusting men despite being let down so many times?

Exactly my point. They have 0 reasons to trust men, ANY men, or child. I just don't see them helping.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

No, read your quote again.

Thank you for the advice to read the quote again -- I have read it many times and it never gets old, although I've been told it doesn't bear repeating!

Quote

Brandon was "the builder" not the hero.

I think they are the same person.  The person who raised Winter-fell is the same person who felled Winter.  But you're right that a 'builder' is not necessarily a 'hero' -- the same person can also be a villain.  

[northern_amnesia]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thank you for the advice to read the quote again

Sorry if i ofended you, that wasn't my intention. It's just that it's not stated that the last hero survived, let alone that he is the first Stark or whatever was Bran the builder, that's what i meant. Besides FOR ME, the broken sword thing  really makes me think that it has to be Royce. I read the Prologue after reading about Old Nan story of the others, and all the things she mention are there: the iron, the fire.. in fact when Will climbs the tree he is biting an iron dagger, and that's were it hit me.

Of course i may be wrong. Thanks again for taking the time to write and i really am sorry if somehow you felt offended

[ravenous reader]

11 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

Sorry if i ofended you, that wasn't my intention.

It's easy to have misunderstandings on the internet.  Mostly, I find it funny that anyone would advise me to read that quote again -- I happen to have written extensively on that quote and feel irresistibly drawn to examining it again and again!  

Quote

It's just that it's not stated that the last hero survived, let alone that he is the first Stark or whatever was Bran the builder, that's what i meant.

You're right about all of that, and I agree it is strange, as you've noted, that the name of the One who ostensibly saved Westeros would not be preserved.  Besides all the similarities in the trajectories of Brandon the Builder and the Last Hero (e.g. both succeeding in finding and then obtaining help from the COTF), hinting that they might be the same person (and they lived at the same time, after all), what makes me think they might be one and the same is it's strongly suggested that Brandon the Builder is a powerful greenseer.  Surely one would need some powerful magic like greenseeing in order to bring Winter to its knees?  Only magic can dance toe to toe with magic; only magic can combat magic; and the Others are magic.  Learning to wield the magic of the COTF is basically what our Bran is doing in the cave, and we know that he is a greenseer.  Likewise, Brandon the Builder learnt the magical language of the COTF.  They are 'those who sing the song of the earth', so a synonym for their language, 'the True Tongue,' would be 'the song of the earth.'  Brandon, therefore, learns how to sing 'the song of stones,' 'the song of water,'  'the song of the wind' rustling through leaves.

It's possible, however, that they were not the same person.  Perhaps the Last Hero and Brandon the Builder were brothers.  The Last Hero got sacrificed to the Others and his brother got the spoils of war.  Then the Last Hero rose from the dead to take his revenge on the brother who had forsaken him (just the way Waymar turned on his brother Will in the Prologue).

Quote

Besides FOR ME, the broken sword thing  really makes me think that it has to be Royce. I read the Prologue after reading about Old Nan story of the others, and all the things she mention are there: the iron, the fire.. in fact when Will climbs the tree he is biting an iron dagger, and that's were it hit me.

I agree that Waymar Royce is a demonstration of the Last Hero archetype.  In fact, my preferred reading of the Prologue is an allegorical one.  That doesn't mean, however, that he is literally the Last Hero.  For one, he's living in a different time to the Last Hero!  

What struck you about the iron dagger?

[Maester Crypt]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 3:13 PM, northern_amnesia said:

The First Men named us children," the little woman said. "The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years." Bran II – ADWD

If the COTF are the ones who sang the song of earth, a cycle that lasted ten thousand years. Could the original Last Hero (Bran the Builder) be the first to sing the song of stone? A song that lasts ten thousand years until the next song is to be sung?

[aryagonnakill#2]

You state that there were no dragons in westeros to make valyrian steal, but the maesters tell us dragons once existed everyone and they know that because they found the skeletons.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/14/2017 at 6:58 AM, northern_amnesia said:

But we REALLY don't know, do we? I mean according to Old Nan the wildlings are basically blood drinking monsters, and we saw they're just people. Also, from what i've seen in that cave, Bran would probably never leave. When he arrives, BR tell him it's late, and honesty, i think the poor kid is there to feed BR with life. All those bones in the cave makes me think that Bran is not the first and won't be the last.

 

We don't know. Don't you find strange that the Wall is made of ice? How ice is supposed to stop creatures  that not only are made of ice, but make things with ice? Would fire stop dragons? The Valyrians made wonderful things with stone thanks to their dragons, and as we've seen in Harrenhal, they melted stone. So i found really hard that WW would have any problems with ice. As for the "magic" of the Wall, we've seen over and over that magic is "sustained" with life, and the men of the NW literally gave their life to the Watch. My guess is that the magic only prevent this unnatural structure to fall.

 

I just think they are there for us to see discrepancies and suspect that something is wrong. But  i could be wrong. 

 

As for Bran, i think he's just a witness. I can't see any scenario where he leaves thee cave, and mostly for me there's no way he's not only the best greenseer ever and the Last Hero and human savior. It's just to much.

 

I'm not quite sure what the COF are doing, but i'm convinced that they won't help men. It's not reasonable for them to do it. Why would they? Men are destroying the land  they love and was theirs. The only scenario that i see in wich humans have a chance to "win" is ending with magic, and that means ending the COF.

 

Thanks so much for your comments!  and the time you took to write

Well there are some things we do know, and some things we don't know, and of course some of what we know will turn out to be wrong. There are some things I take on faith at this point. When Old Nan is dealing with plain facts and not judgments, I think she's okay. Obviously she's either playing up to Bran with the Wildling comments or has a serious grudge against them. I don't take anything Old Nan says as 100% without something backing it up.

I'm fairly certain Bran will get out of the cave. The reason he's needed is because Bloodraven's time is limited and someone has to be alive who knows how to defeat the Others. If he's the Last Hero come again, having sought out the CotF, he has to take the knowledge back with him. The only other way it will work is if someone else goes to the cave and Bran tells them the crucial info, and then they leave him there, and I hope that doesn't happen.

I don't find it at all strange that the Wall is made of ice. In the North, in winter, one thing you have in abundance is ice. But there's more than just ice in the Wall. There's wood, and stone, and according to Ygritte there's blood. Ice is just frozen water, and the CotF have used water magic before when they broke Dorne's arm. If, as some have theorized, the CotF created the Others in the first place, then they definitely had the know-how to build a massive ice barrier. It's not that the ice will stop the Others, the magic does that, it's just that ice was probably the most abundant and available building material they had at the time. Maybe the CotF can't imbue wood or stone with magic. There's got to be a reason they used the Hammer of the Waters, and not the Hammer of the Rocks.

A lot of times when the subject of who really built the Wall comes up, people will quote GRRM talking about how the Others can do amazing things with ice. Stacking blocks of it to build a wall doesn't strike me as all that amazing. Making swords that will break steel, now that's impressive. Just my take, of course.

What do you think of Old Nan's comment that the Wall will stand as long as the men of the Night's Watch remain true, combined with the fact that a bunch of them just committed mutiny to murder their Lord Commander? I think that goes along nicely with your point about the men of the Watch sacrificing themselves. If they're no longer willing to do that, then the magic can fail, and the Wall come down.

Oh there are definitely discrepancies in there for a reason. Part of it is to keep us guessing, and doubting, and part of it is to add realism. GRRM has talked about how there are mysteries way back in history to which we'll never get the answers. He wants to keep some of that in his series as well. But I'm sure he'll give us the answers on the most important things.

I don't see Bran as the best greenseer ever. I see him as the only one alive right now who is sufficiently talented to learn the necessary skills and knowledge to defeat the Others, in the short time Bloodraven has left. Bloodraven may be the best greenseer ever, or for all we know both he and Bran could be mediocre compared to the greenseers of old. Bran's going to help save the world sure, but he won't be saving it single-handedly. And he's already paid a high price to do it, losing his legs and possibly (though we don't know yet) the ability to father children.

The CotF are hard to figure out. But I could see them thinking that their time is about up and they need to make sure that something survives even though they can't. And if they did create the Others, then they can't go extinct without cleaning up their mess first. It would make them little green villains to die out and let men deal with that on their own. Plus they've been helping Bran and Bloodraven. I'm not a naturally optimistic person, but I don't think the storyline in the cave is as dark as people think it is. We'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for the reply. It's great talking to you.