[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[darmody]

4 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Guess who also have no power, every other queen in Westeros. Outside of a Queen-Regent like Cersei was or ones that are actually heirs the throne like Rhaenyra and Dany, they are not in itself invested with power to order around Lords. A queen like Cersei or Margeary might be more powerful because of the numbers of their household guard, how much the King or his heir, the Prince of Dragonstone decides listens to them, who is paying the gold cloaks, their relationship with the Hand and so on but the Lord of Westeros serve the King, The Regent, the Protector, the Hand, their Lord-Paramount, their cardinal direction's Warden and then themselves. Queen doesn't inheritely get a place in that pecking order. And if they do, there's certainly not a law that distinquishes the newer Queen from the older Queen as more "rightful". They get to bully around their household like any proper Lady. The Lord of Hornhill doesn't have to give a ****.

There's a concept you should learn called "queen consort." They don't have political power, but they share the social status of their husbands, who are kings. The mothers of kings, called "queen mothers" or "dowager queens," are lower in status than consorts. 

[darmody]

4 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Tyrion himself says that as Queen-Regent, even Tywin the Hand of King and most powerful man in the Kingdom serves at her pleasure officially. A Queen-Regent rules the Seven Kingdoma. The wife of a adult King does not. Had the Regency ever fallen on Margeary before she died, the people would owe her allegiance before anyone else. That never happened.

Marge wouldn't have ever been Regent unless Tommen died before their hypothetical son came of age. 

But what's your point? Marge was queen consort even if she was never queen regent. 

[StepStark]

15 minutes ago, Gala said:

About Tormund: he doesn't know neither Beric nor his story, so it would not matter. My point is it seems logical to not letting anyone go beyond the Wall and to prevent them from going there. It is actually hard to prevent the Hound, Beric and Thoros to do what they want, thus, the dungeons is the best way to keep them. 

But what do they want exactly? Even they don't know the answer to that question! And that's the point, nothing makes sense. Really, what is their mission? They want to go North and do what exactly? Wander beyond The Wall in hope of finding the war with some strange army they saw in the flames? Only lunatics act like that and that's the problem, that's why there is no rational explanation to the contrivance from the last episode. Just try to imagine Tormund's conversation with them and you'll see that it's impossible. And that means that nothing that comes out of that situation is even remotely realistic.

[darmody]

3 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

To me the sentence implies that the latter is the queen he ought to have been following as opposed the latter. But where is that coming from? 

Tommen was not the rightful king, and therefore nobody should have been following Marge as their queen. However, not everyone believed the incest rumors, and it's understandable why they'd go along even if they did. But not so with Queen Cersei.

Cersei is so much more illegitimate than Tommen, there's no comparison. She blew up the Sept! She murdered Marge and presumably every noble in town, including her own uncle. I imagine lots of people assume she murdered her son, as well. And she was on trial for murdering her husband, the king. 

That's what Tyrion is getting at. 

[Gala]

3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But what do they want exactly? Even they don't know the answer to that question! And that's the point, nothing makes sense. Really, what is their mission? They want to go North and do what exactly? Wander beyond The Wall in hope of finding the war with some strange army they saw in the flames? Only lunatics act like that and that's the problem, that's why there is no rational explanation to the contrivance from the last episode. Just try to imagine Tormund's conversation with them and you'll see that it's impossible. And that means that nothing that comes out of that situation is even remotely realistic.

Beric is pretty much a lunatic in the show... the Hound seems to be the voice of reason... I like the way he snaps at him and shuts him up all the time. But, yes, I see your point: lunatics on a suicide mission (well, in the end they are where they should be - in particular, meeting with other lunatics on a suicide mission). Beric and Thoros would probably say that's the Lord of Light brought them there on purpose. 

[StepStark]

42 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I realise it's not likely they would have survived in real life, but I accept it because them surving unrealistically is a lot better for the story than them dying.

Sorry for saying this and please don't take this as something against you personally, but that's how poorly written stories are made. If they survive unrealistically then everything after that is unrealistic too because they shouldn't be alive in a logical universe. And you can't have a good story in illogical universe.

What they should've done with Jaime and Bronn is not put them in situation from which they can't survive realistically. That's the whole point really: you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a cliffhanger like the one from episode four and then "resolve" it in a way they did in episode 5. Actually you can, obviously, but then you loose all the credibility. And that's something that even average writers should be aware of. It really doesn't take Shakespeare to realize how stupid was the "resolution" to that cliffhanger, it's very obvious, but D&D went with it anyway because they want their dramatic scenes and they don't care about logical fallacies they produce.

[Ser Didymus]

1 minute ago, StepStark said:

But what do they want exactly? Even they don't know the answer to that question! And that's the point, nothing makes sense. Really, what is their mission? They want to go North and do what exactly? Wander beyond The Wall in hope of finding the war with some strange army they saw in the flames? Only lunatics act like that and that's the problem, that's why there is no rational explanation to the contrivance from the last episode. Just try to imagine Tormund's conversation with them and you'll see that it's impossible. And that means that nothing that comes out of that situation is even remotely realistic.

that conversation would go something like this:

Thoros: "You're not wearing black.  How did you come to hold this castle?"

Tormund: "I am of the freefolk.  The King in the North commanded me to hold this castle, and if there is one thing the freefolk are good for, it's taking orders from a southron King.  what business do you have in these lands?"

Beric: "we are here to fight for the living against the army of the dead."

Tormund: "perfect.  just stay in this jail cell for a while and we'll figure out what to do with you"

The Hound: "bugger that.  we mean to go beyond the wall, so that's what we'll be doing"

Tormund: "and if i let you through this castle and past the wall... what do you plan on doing next?"

Beric: "die most likely.  then at least I will get re-animated by the Fire God.  not sure about these two..."

Tormund: "or you'll all die, and be re-animated by the Ice Gods"

Thoros: "oh, so you know what we're talking about?"

Tormund: "oh, here's my southron King now.  maybe he brought us some good news..."

[darmody]

26 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Pretty sure the rightful queen in this context was Dany.

Not if Jon Snow/Targaryen is legitimate. Which we don't know yet, because Sam interrupted Gilly.

[Mister Stoneheart]

There's no way in hell both Jaime and Bronn could have survived--not in GRRM's world, a world where 'anyone can die'.

I would have liked to see Bronn die.  Tired of his constant tedious witticisms.

[StepStark]

3 minutes ago, Gala said:

Beric is pretty much a lunatic in the show... the Hound seems to be the voice of reason... I like the way he snaps at him and shuts him up all the time. But, yes, I see your point: lunatics on a suicide mission (well, in the end they are where they should be - in particular, meeting with other lunatics on a suicide mission). Beric and Thoros would probably say that's the Lord of Light brought them there on purpose. 

But that opens other questions: if Beris is lunatic then what is Sandor doing on some unclear mission with that lunatic? And because there's no rational answer to that, there goes the entire Sandor's "arc" after he was brought back to the story.

[StepStark]

3 minutes ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

I would have liked to see Bronn die.  Tired of his constant tedious witticisms.

Thank God, I was starting to think I'm the only one who can't stand Bronn from the show.

[El Guapo]

5 minutes ago, darmody said:

Not if Jon Snow/Targaryen is legitimate. Which we don't know yet, because Sam interrupted Gilly.

Doesn't matter, Tyrion supports Dany's claim.

[Le Cygne]

37 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But what do they want exactly? Even they don't know the answer to that question! And that's the point, nothing makes sense. Really, what is their mission? They want to go North and do what exactly? Wander beyond The Wall in hope of finding the war with some strange army they saw in the flames? Only lunatics act like that and that's the problem, that's why there is no rational explanation to the contrivance from the last episode. Just try to imagine Tormund's conversation with them and you'll see that it's impossible. And that means that nothing that comes out of that situation is even remotely realistic.

Yeah, everything is basically suspending logic to justify the wight hunt. A wight for Cersei. Let's not use the dragon and end it all now, let's get her to play nice, says Tyrion. That's the most bizarre part of it all. They have everyone behaving so bizarrely, it's like do we just expect this from now on?

(It's like Alice in Wonderland or something. They went down the rabbit hole after season 4. Some of them before that.)

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Sorry for saying this and please don't take this as something against you personally, but that's how poorly written stories are made. If they survive unrealistically then everything after that is unrealistic too because they shouldn't be alive in a logical universe. And you can't have a good story in illogical universe.

What they should've done with Jaime and Bronn is not put them in situation from which they can't survive realistically. That's the whole point really: you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a cliffhanger like the one from episode four and then "resolve" it in a way they did in episode 5. Actually you can, obviously, but then you loose all the credibility. And that's something that even average writers should be aware of. It really doesn't take Shakespeare to realize how stupid was the "resolution" to that cliffhanger, it's very obvious, but D&D went with it anyway because they want their dramatic scenes and they don't care about logical fallacies they produce.

No, I agree 100%. They should not have had Ep4 finishing with Jaime looking like he was sinking into the sea. They could have avoided this completely by not getting themselves into the position they did. They also could have gone down much favourable routes, maybe by not having them fall into the river covered in armour in the first place. 

It was poor writing, I'm not denying that. The writers put Jaime in a position he was unlikely to survive from but made him survive anyway, but being honest, I didn't care that much about it. I disagreed with it, thought it was lame, but I moved on.

Too many people here get wrapped up on these minor details and can't enjoy the story. Despite how stupid I thought the writing was, it didn't make me enjoy the episode any less. I'm not petty enough to let something like that stop me from enjoying a story I love.

[Ser Quork]

7 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Thank God, I was starting to think I'm the only one who can't stand Bronn from the show.

I think there are plenty of us. 

[Gala]

5 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But that opens other questions: if Beris is lunatic then what is Sandor doing on some unclear mission with that lunatic? And because there's no rational answer to that, there goes the entire Sandor's "arc" after he was brought back to the story.

Beats me!

I stopped finding logic (global scale) in the show a long time ago, I just sometimes understand the logic of some of characters' actions, like Tormunds here.

I hope Hound will have a bigger role, if he survives this mission to the North.

[Corvinus85]

I just realized that Tormund told Jon that his SCOUTS captured the Brotherhood a mile from Eastwatch. That's right, the man uses scouts, south of the Wall, where supposedly there are no more enemies. This man needs to be promoted to marshal of all armies instantly. Sure, he doesn't know what a pincer maneuver is, but I bet he's a quick study.

[Hound's She-Wolf 2]

16 hours ago, darmody said:

The weird part was that it seemed like Tyrion was looking around for Larry's charred corpse at the beginning of this episode. At least that's the way I interpreted it. There's the "Tyrion questions Dany's penchant for burning things" storyline, but I interpreted him as being afraid of finding his dead brother on the battlefield. 

I thought he was just looking around at the ashen carnage from Dany and her dragon. I didn't even think he was looking for Jaime's remains, I think that's an interesting idea, I don't necessarily agree, but I can see that is plausible.

[Ser Didymus]

3 minutes ago, Gala said:

Beats me!

I stopped finding logic (global scale) in the show a long time ago, I just sometimes understand the logic of some of characters' actions, like Tormunds here.

I hope Hound will have a bigger role, if he survives this mission to the North.

Jon sending Tormund to hold Eastwatch by the Sea was entirely pointless.  what was accomplished?  if anything, it told the viewers that there are no brother's of the Night's Watch in that castle, and Tormund must go with his freefolk to hold the castle.  it also tells the viewers that Jon Snow, King in the North, is now acting Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, as he is choosing who to garrison one of "his" castles.

why this entire group of characters could not have met at Winterfell is beyond me.  The Winterfell plot, or lack thereof, would have benefited from addition characters being thrown together.  and considering the fast-travel capabilities now possessed by all characters, it wouldn't have made any difference if Jon and gang stopped at home first.  it would have added to the story, rather than reveal giant leaps in logic in the writers' room. 

[That Westerosi Dude]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I just realized that Tormund told Jon that his SCOUTS captured the Brotherhood a mile from Eastwatch. That's right, the man uses scouts, south of the Wall, where supposedly there are no more enemies. This man needs to be promoted to marshal of all armies instantly. Sure, he doesn't know what a pincer maneuver is, but I bet he's a quick study.

I am also assuming the Dothraki. Only because Jorah was escorted to Dany, he didn't just jump out from a bush and say SURPRISE!