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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion


Lady Fevre Dream

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2 minutes ago, Ser Didymus said:

Sam was directed by the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (an order Sam is a sworn member of) to join the Citadel and become a trained and chained Maester to serve at Castle Black.

so, is Dolorous Edd going to cut Sam's head off?  or is Jon still the Lord Commander, seeing as how he is garrisoning Eastwatch with his wilding friends?

either way, i'm pretty sure Sam's voluntary expulsion from the Citadel means that he is violating a direct order from then Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Janos Slynt once disregarded the Lord Commander's orders.  Eddard Stark beheaded a man in the first episode of the show for abandoning his assignment on the Night's Watch...  what's next for Sam?

Oh, you're right, of course.  But the Show!Wall will fall soon and there will be no more Nights Watch to worry about.  Also, very conveniently, Sam is the new head of House Tarly and Lord or Horn Hill;)

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1 minute ago, Corvinus said:

Jon sent Tormund and his people to garrison Eastwach back in episode 1. Remember when Tormund smugly told the northern lords Looks like we're the Night's Watch now.

So Jon basically became Stannis.

You are correct.  I forgot that point.  I was even trying to understand what Tormund was doing in Eastwatch this episode.

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Why would Jon not head to Winterfell whilst Davos and Tyrion went to King's Landing? So he could, you know, inform his Lords of what was going on, make sure Sansa was handling everything OK and, oh yeah, visiting his sister and brother who he was convinced were dead?!

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2 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

None of those things you mentioned are good writing. They're all fan service, with the possible exception of the Davos thing. I get what they were trying to do there, continuing to subvert expectations about whether they are just going to kill them. But it played out like a Family Guy sketch.

I'm reminded of a certain onion analogy. If parts of it are rotten, it's all rotten. I don't mind weak moments, but if I have to "look hard" to find a plurality of good writing, then it's not well written. An umbrella that keeps you dry 51% of the time is a shit umbrella.

That's your opinion. I enjoyed those moments. Because you class them as poor, is that them officially poor? Is your say on the show final? No, I don't think so.

My question for you is this: why bother watching it if all you can do is criticise it? If I had the issues with a tv show that you seem to have with GoT, I would never put myself through another minute of it again.

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2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Oh, you're right, of course.  But the Show!Wall will fall soon and there will be no more Nights Watch to worry about.  Also, very conveniently, Sam is the new head of House Tarly and Lord or Horn Hill;)

Randyll Tarly seemed mighty worried about the priceless Valyrian steel sword Sam stole.

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22 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Why would Jon not head to Winterfell whilst Davos and Tyrion went to King's Landing? So he could, you know, inform his Lords of what was going on, make sure Sansa was handling everything OK and, oh yeah, visiting his sister and brother who he was convinced were dead?!

Also he could get people to go with him (or maybe he could rethink the whole wight for Cersei thing).

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15 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

There are much bigger issues, in my opinion, than the likelihood of Jaime actually having survived what he survived.

 

OF course there are. It's just one of the most recent/visable example. But it's symptomatic of a much much bigger problem. On a LARGE scale, sense of time, distance, physics, and character motivation have been completely thrown out the window to deliver up fan service moments that sit isolated in a nonsensical plot.

All 4 of those things played out in the scene:

Time: How long was he underwater to have emerged so far away?

Distance: How did they get so far to evade capture, and how was there a 15 foot trench right next to the shore the horse was wading in?

Physics: Full armor and a golden hand gets rescued by Bronn?

Character motivation: Why didn't Tyrion, who was watching the whole thing unfold run to see if his brother was dead, and capture him when he wasn't?

That is just a microcosm of the totally effed narrative on a larger scale which gives us teleporting armies, an army of the dead that never gets any closer to the wall,  a rushed pace, ridiculous decisions of almost all main characters, Arya beating a broad sword with Needle, Cersei's indefensible continued reign, the Tarleys, etc. etc. etc.

If a good show to you is just seeing your favorite "badass" characters meet up and fist pump to meme-bait, then fair enough. But don't confuse pulp with quality.

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6 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

My question for you is this: why bother watching it if all you can do is criticise it? If I had the issues with a tv show that you seem to have with GoT, I would never put myself through another minute of it again.

This is rant and rave without repercussions. I'm happy to debate with you about our perspectives, but it you are going to reduce it to, "why do you even watch anyways", then please leave. This thread isn't for you.

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6 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

My question for you is this: why bother watching it if all you can do is criticise it? If I had the issues with a tv show that you seem to have with GoT, I would never put myself through another minute of it again.

Poster in another thread explained it brilliantly and I'll use his logic: watching GOT thought me about bad storytelling more than any other show or film ever. As an example of abysmal writing it's unique. And arguing about it with people who genuinely like it is equally precious.

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13 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

What sword?!! ;)

 

ETA: Oh, now I remember...it was a Valyrian steel sword named "Plot Hole" or "Loose End", I think...:P

I tried to see if Gilly's baby had ever grown larger, but the scene was too dark to see.

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4 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

If a good show to you is just seeing your favorite "badass" characters meet up and fist pump to meme-bait, then fair enough. But don't confuse pulp with quality.

That is not my idea of a good tv show but thanks for assuming what I like and don't like. Pity you are completely wrong.

2 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

This is rant and rave without repercussions. I'm happy to debate with you about our perspectives, but it you are going to reduce it to, "why do you even watch anyways", then please leave. This thread isn't for you.

I've debated similar perspectives as I was debating with you to many other people without having to 'reduce' it to asking that question. But you quite clearly have a special kind of negativity towards the show that goes beyond the case of debating opinions. 

When people lump their opinion on as if it is fact and nothing else makes sense, as you have been doing, and that opinion is as negative as yours is, you can't help but wonder what enjoyment the person gets out of the show. 

Rant and raving is fine, that's what this thread is for. Hell, I have ranted and raved about the show plenty, but at the end of the day, I enjoy the show. I see a lot more good in it than bad. A lot more 'quality' than 'pulp'.

Nothing you have said to me hints that you enjoy the show at all, which can only leave me asking you what I did.

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10 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

That's your opinion. I enjoyed those moments. Because you class them as poor, is that them officially poor? Is your say on the show final? No, I don't think so.

It's not any individual opinion that makes those moments poor, but the lack of logic and reasoning. Really, D&D do make it extremely easy to criticize the writing because none of their writing makes sense. You can like all those scenes and that's your right, but here we're talking about common sense and basic logic, and no, none of those scenes actually have any. Literally all of those scenes that you like demand drastic suspension of disbelief, because, for example, how can you rationally explain Gendry's departure from KL? How can anyone leave just like that? Did he have a home in KL all those years? Did he have friends or a girlfriend, and just left them like that? And what would he do if Davos never showed up, stay in KL forever despite hating it so much? And not to mention "I thought you might be rowing still" line which was meant to be what exactly? Funny? Smart? Deep?

That is what makes all those scenes bad, and not anyone's individual enjoyment or the lack of.

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8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Poster in another thread explained it brilliantly and I'll use his logic: watching GOT thought me about bad storytelling more than any other show or film ever. As an example of abysmal writing it's unique. And arguing about it with people who genuinely like it is equally precious.

You and the other poster clearly haven't watched many other films or TV shows if you think GoT is the best example of bad writing you can find.

I definitely wouldn't say it's the best written show I've ever watched but to look at as you do is going beyond the pale.

If I am in the category 'people that genuinely like it', where do you fall?

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3 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

That is not my idea of a good tv show but thanks for assuming what I like and don't like. Pity you are completely wrong.

I've debated similar perspectives as I was debating with you to many other people without having to 'reduce' it to asking that question. But you quite clearly have a special kind of negativity towards the show that goes beyond the case of debating opinions. 

When people lump their opinion on as if it is fact and nothing else makes sense, as you have been doing, and that opinion is as negative as yours is, you can't help but wonder what enjoyment the person gets out of the show. 

Rant and raving is fine, that's what this thread is for. Hell, I have ranted and raved about the show plenty, but at the end of the day, I enjoy the show. I see a lot more good in it than bad. A lot more 'quality' than 'pulp'.

Nothing you have said to me hints that you enjoy the show at all, which can only leave me asking you what I did.

obviously, those of us with the propensity to rail against the TV show have some emotional connection to the characters and the story at large or we wouldn't care enough to air our frustrations when the TV show disappoints us.

the TV show has achieved ubiquity in our culture.  it permeates all social media and conversation when it's on the air.  telling people to stop watching the show because it upsets them is like telling people to stop paying attention to politics because we can only find the negatives, however multitudinous they may be.

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1 minute ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You and the other poster clearly haven't watched many other films or TV shows if you think GoT is the best example of bad writing you can find.

I definitely wouldn't say it's the best written show I've ever watched but to look at as you do is going beyond the pale.

If I am in the category 'people that genuinely like it', where do you fall?

Actually I think it's the other way around: you most probably didn't watch many other films or TV shows that are actually written competently if you think that any of the scenes in the last episode was good.

I'm in the category "dislike all of it on the basis of logic and realism". Isn't that obvious?

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11 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

None of those things you mentioned are good writing. They're all fan service, with the possible exception of the Davos thing. I get what they were trying to do there, continuing to subvert expectations about whether they are just going to kill them. But it played out like a Family Guy sketch.

I'm reminded of a certain onion analogy. If parts of it are rotten, it's all rotten. I don't mind weak moments, but if I have to "look hard" to find a plurality of good writing, then it's not well written. An umbrella that keeps you dry 51% of the time is a shit umbrella.

Is Euripedes shit writing?  The deus ex machina is ancient.  It exists because narrative plausibility is not nearly as important as what the story is actually about.  You want to tell the story of a person determined to change a tyrannical autocracy in the face of entrenched interests and examine issues like when the reformer becomes the tyrant herself.  Interesting but you need a reformer with the power to change things in a world where the power is held by the autocrat.  Ok, let's give her some dragons!  Deus ex machina. 

You want to show a growing girl chafing at society's understanding of gender roles and explore the tension between the oppressiveness of social convention and the way it makes it possible for dissimilar people to survive and work together?  Ok, let's make her an assassin!  

You want to explore a person who's struggling to be both sensible and honorable who loves a woman who's neither of these things in a world where things are falling apart and all hope for humanity lies in people being sensible and honorable?  Show him the terrible reality of the situation and then bring him back into a conversation with his lover through a miraculous rescue! 

These aren't bad storytelling they're just recognition of the fact that the story isn't a flow of events it's a clash of ideas and emotions.  They put forward the things matter and subsume the things that don't matter with convenient devices that are, as it happens, fun to watch. 

A critic's niggling "but he couldn't do that" is beside the point.  And especially if the critic is just wrong.  The people who gripe about Arya and Brienne are just ignorant of the mechanics of swordplay and are, besides, misunderstanding the scene.  Anyone who's ever learned to fence has seen an adult coach sparring with students and, if the coach is a good one, seen students do well.  Anyone who's been in a river has felt himself be carried along with it and has possibly been surprised by how fast an apparently placid river can carry one.  

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3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

It's not any individual opinion that makes those moments poor, but the lack of logic and reasoning. Really, D&D do make it extremely easy to criticize the writing because none of their writing makes sense. You can like all those scenes and that's your right, but here we're talking about common sense and basic logic, and no, none of those scenes actually have any. Literally all of those scenes that you like demand drastic suspension of disbelief, because, for example, how can you rationally explain Gendry's departure from KL? How can anyone leave just like that? Did he have a home in KL all those years? Did he have friends or a girlfriend, and just left them like that? And what would he do if Davos never showed up, stay in KL forever despite hating it so much? And not to mention "I thought you might be rowing still" line which was meant to be what exactly? Funny? Smart? Deep?

That is what makes all those scenes bad, and not anyone's individual enjoyment or the lack of.

I think you would maybe like the show a lot more of each episode was one big series of exposition explaining everything about everything so we literally have no questions left to ask. 

'None of their writing makes sense', you can't find me one example of something that makes sense? 

In your eyes this story is nothing more than moments of people that have no relation to each other, in places that have no relation to the character, doing and saying things that have no relevance to anyone or anything. Because that is the description of writing of which nothing makes sense.

 

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it's an extreme opinion, maybe even one of these "hot takes" i see the kids tweeting about these days, but it suddenly feels like D&D's handling of the show in the latter seasons (5 thru current) is comparable to Donald Trump's presidency.

pure incompetence on display, almost to the point of being proud of the incompetence.  i ask myself the same question about the show that i often ask about this administration: is there no one, absolutely no one, with the courage to tell the Emperor that he's actually naked?

 

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