[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Jordan La Cabra]

7 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Actually I think it's the other way around: you most probably didn't watch many other films or TV shows that are actually written competently if you think that any of the scenes in the last episode was good.

I'm in the category "dislike all of it on the basis of logic and realism". Isn't that obvious?

Give me example of TV and films you have watched that you consider to fit the criteria that would let 'StepStark like all of this on the basis of logic and realism'.

Did you think any scenes in episode 4 were 'logical and realistic' or the previous episodes of the season? Or the previous seasons in general?

[StepStark]

7 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I think you would maybe like the show a lot more of each episode was one big series of exposition explaining everything about everything so we literally have no questions left to ask. 

'None of their writing makes sense', you can't find me one example of something that makes sense? 

In your eyes this story is nothing more than moments of people that have no relation to each other, in places that have no relation to the character, doing and saying things that have no relevance to anyone or anything. Because that is the description of writing of which nothing makes sense.

That's a typical strawman argument, but for your information no, I don't require "big series of exposition explaining everything about everything". In fact, shows and movies that I like are nothing like that. It's just that I don't like rubbish like Transformers, and I especially don't like when a brilliant series of books is "adapted" into something that has as much logic in it as Transformers. If you start watching actually good movies and shows, you'll understand soon enough.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Just now, StepStark said:

That's a typical strawman argument, but for your information no, I don't require "big series of exposition explaining everything about everything". In fact, shows and movies that I like are nothing like that. It's just that I don't like rubbish like Transformers, and I especially don't like when a brilliant series of books is "adapted" into something that has as much logic in it as Transformers. If you start watching actually good movies and shows, you'll understand soon enough.

Transformers? You actually compare GoT to Transformers? Your hate for this show is truly strong to stoop that low.

You'd also do well to realise that no books are being adapted in the making of this season, or the season before. When this series was working off book material it was actually a lot better. GRRM hasn't produced Winds and we will never see it or DoS adapted in a TV series.

Ive said in this thread that D&D didn't sign up for this. They are out of their depth trying to make original material for a story they didn't create. They are fans as much as we are and I am sure they are suffering from the lack of progress from GRRM as we are. They aren't cut out to write this, hence why they are rushing it and hence why the final two seasons are shortened. But I can still enjoy it for what it is. 

It will never be GoT season 1-4 good, but it is still enjoyable entertainment.

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Give me example of TV and films you have watched that you consider to fit the criteria that would let 'StepStark like all of this on the basis of logic and realism'.

I can give you hundreds of examples actually, but some of it is thematically too removed from the subject we're discussing here. So how about Blade runner? Like ASOIAF it's a universe that contains unrealistic elements (replicants) but treats them realistically and consistently with the in-story logic. It was made in 1982, which means that D&D are not even able to keep up with something from 35 years ago. Go figure.

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Did you think any scenes in episode 4 were 'logical and realistic' or the previous episodes of the season? Or the previous seasons in general?

Not that I can think of right now. There possibly were scenes that didn't defy the basic logic, but none of them was brilliant either, because otherwise I'd probably remember them.

[ramla]

16 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

Is Euripedes shit writing?  The deus ex machina is ancient.  It exists because narrative plausibility is not nearly as important as what the story is actually about.  You want to tell the story of a person determined to change a tyrannical autocracy in the face of entrenched interests and examine issues like when the reformer becomes the tyrant herself.  Interesting but you need a reformer with the power to change things in a world where the power is held by the autocrat.  Ok, let's give her some dragons!  Deus ex machina. 

You want to show a growing girl chafing at society's understanding of gender roles and explore the tension between the oppressiveness of social convention and the way it makes it possible for dissimilar people to survive and work together?  Ok, let's make her an assassin!  

You want to explore a person who's struggling to be both sensible and honorable who loves a woman who's neither of these things in a world where things are falling apart and all hope for humanity lies in people being sensible and honorable?  Show him the terrible reality of the situation and then bring him back into a conversation with his lover through a miraculous rescue! 

These aren't bad storytelling they're just recognition of the fact that the story isn't a flow of events it's a clash of ideas and emotions.  They put forward the things matter and subsume the things that don't matter with convenient devices that are, as it happens, fun to watch. 

A critic's niggling "but he couldn't do that" is beside the point.  And especially if the critic is just wrong.  The people who gripe about Arya and Brienne are just ignorant of the mechanics of swordplay and are, besides, misunderstanding the scene.  Anyone who's ever learned to fence has seen an adult coach sparring with students and, if the coach is a good one, seen students do well.  Anyone who's been in a river has felt himself be carried along with it and has possibly been surprised by how fast an apparently placid river can carry one.  

Its not about the Destination, its about the journey... Ok you giver her some dragons... But the stroy is in how the arch forms out. Not just about viola! DRAGONS. Same with "making her an Assasin. A good story is about the journey to become an warg-assasin... Not just the destination of it without any explanation or back story.

There are many aspect of this Field of Fire 2.0 thats all about the destination and lack any coherence to the watcher. Which is poor storytelling.You're saying its possible for a man in Full metal armor to make it half a mile down stream without being scene and without removing his armor? I didn't see any rapids over there... And wouldn't the Dothraki search for survivor as they did gather captive to stand before Dany. Were they just like nah lets just gather all in this one spot and not search the area. Again, Jamie is in full metal armor. Bronn I can see making it down the "rapids" but not fully armored Jamie. Would have been easy to just show him without his armor when he popped up.

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Transformers? You actually compare GoT to Transformers?

Yes and I've been generous. You obviously underestimate the level of overall stupidity in GOT.

3 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You'd also do well to realise that no books are being adapted in the making of this season, or the season before. When this series was working off book material it was actually a lot better. GRRM hasn't produced Winds and we will never see it or DoS adapted in a TV series.

Ive said in this thread that D&D didn't sign up for this. They are out of their depth trying to make original material for a story they didn't create. They are fans as much as we are and I am sure they are suffering from the lack of progress from GRRM as we are. They aren't cut out to write this, hence why they are rushing it and hence why the final two seasons are shortened. But I can still enjoy it for what it is.

So I'm suppose to force myself to like their ridiculous scenes just because they don't have books to adapt any more, books which by the way they failed to adapt faithfully and the spirit of which they ignored or turned upside down from the beginning? Are you kidding me? You do realize that this world doesn't exist so D&D can be applauded for their incompetence?

And actually, I do think that their original sin is that they took a much bigger bite than they could ever chew. ASOIAF is not some easy pulp literature they foolishly mistaken it for. Adapting ASOIAF does require some skill, which they tragically don't possess at all. Adults should know their limitations. Mature people do know their limitations. So if you want to point fingers at who's guilty for this situation, try with the two people who just like you say found themselves way out of their depth but nevertheless earned millions and grabbed all the fame and attention as if they had it all coming. Feel sorry for them as much as you want, but don't expect anyone with the least bit of critical thinking to agree with you on that.

[Jordan La Cabra]

7 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I can give you hundreds of examples actually, but some of it is thematically too removed from the subject we're discussing here. So how about Blade runner? Like ASOIAF it's a universe that contains unrealistic elements (replicants) but treats them realistically and consistently with the in-story logic. It was made in 1982, which means that D&D are not even able to keep up with something from 35 years ago. Go figure.

Not that I can think of right now. There possibly were scenes that didn't defy the basic logic, but none of them was brilliant either, because otherwise I'd probably remember them.

If you asked me to pick my favourite movie of all time, Blade runner would be the first that comes to mind. If you and I can both agree on that, maybe it tastes aren't that far apart.

I know I could turn myself to hate GoT if I decided to pick it apart piece by piece, but I can switch off and watch it. I can take a seat back and say, 'hey, it's gone a bit absurd now, but at the end of it all, there are characters here that I love and I'm going to watch it to see what happens them'. 

Maybe you can't do that, and maybe you can't see how I can. Maybe for that reason, we will never agree on this.

[StepStark]

15 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It will never be GoT season 1-4 good, but it is still enjoyable entertainment.

Speaking of quality, seasons 1-4 weren't good, and seasons 5 and on are even worse. On the other hand, whether the show is enjoyable and entertaining or not is up to personal taste.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

If you asked me to pick my favourite movie of all time, Blade runner would be the first that comes to mind. If you and I can both agree on that, maybe it tastes aren't that far apart.

I know I could turn myself to hate GoT if I decided to pick it apart piece by piece, but I can switch off and watch it. I can take a seat back and say, 'hey, it's gone a bit absurd now, but at the end of it all, there are characters here that I love and I'm going to watch it to see what happens them'. 

Maybe you can't do that, and maybe you can't see how I can. Maybe for that reason, we will never agree on this.

So when you compare the writing in GOT and the writing of Blade runner, what is the result?

Do you make a difference between stuff you have to make elaborate plans how to enjoy, and stuff that is genuinely so good that you're enjoying it regardless of what were your expectations and preparations?

[Capo Ferro]

3 minutes ago, ramla said:

Its not about the Destination, its about the journey... Ok you giver her some dragons... But the stroy is in how the arch forms out. Not just about viola! DRAGONS. Same with "making her an Assasin. A good story is about the journey to become an warg-assasin... Not just the destination of it without any explanation or back story.

There are many aspect of this Field of Fire 2.0 thats all about the destination and lack any coherence to the watcher. Which is poor storytelling.You're saying its possible for a man in Full metal armor to make it half a mile down stream without being scene and without removing his armor? I didn't see any rapids over there... And wouldn't the Dothraki search for survivor as they did gather captive to stand before Dany. Were they just like nah lets just gather all in this one spot and not search the area. Again, Jamie is in full metal armor. Bronn I can see making it down the "rapids" but not fully armored Jamie. Would have been easy to just show him without his armor when he popped up.

 

But what journey is this story about?  There are different journeys that can be written about.  Is the journey that is being depicted here the hatching, raising and growth to maturity of dragons or is the journey the wrestling with how a revolutionary upends the established order without becoming what she seeks to overturn?  My point here is that this story is about the lattet -- it's about how Dany, given the power to destroy the Randall Tarlys and Cersei Lannisters of the world can do so without becoming a monster herself.  It's not a story of a young girls path on the road to becoming an assassin, it's the story of a young girl coming to understand how to separate reasonable reactions to conventions she bridles against (not becoming a kept seamstress for some Lord because that's what highborn ladies do) to unreasonable ones (cutting off the heads of people who insult her brother).

We see parts of the other journeys because they're fun to watch but they aren't the point of this show.  It has other axes to grind.

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Yes and I've been generous. You obviously underestimate the level of overall stupidity in GOT.

So I'm suppose to force myself to like their ridiculous scenes just because they don't have books to adapt any more, books which by the way they failed to adapt faithfully and the spirit of which they ignored or turned upside down from the beginning? Are you kidding me? You do realize that this world doesn't exist so D&D can be applauded for their incompetence?

And actually, I do think that their original sin is that they took a much bigger bite than they could ever chew. ASOIAF is not some easy pulp literature they foolishly mistaken it for. Adapting ASOIAF does require some skill, which they tragically don't possess at all. Adults should know their limitations. Mature people do know their limitations. So if you want to point fingers at who's guilty for this situation, try with the two people who just like you say found themselves way out of their depth but nevertheless earned millions and grabbed all the fame and attention as if they had it all coming. Feel sorry for them as much as you want, but don't expect anyone with the least bit of critical thinking to agree with you on that.

You're not supposed to force yourself to do anything. You're certainly not supposed to force yourself to sit through seasons upon seasons of a tv show you clearly hate but you do it anyway, so anything is possible.

Feeling sorry for guys who have made millions out of adapting a series of books into the biggest current running tv show on the planet isn't something I feel or ever will feel. 

But D&D could have been any of us fans that took a chance on adapting a series of books they clearly are fans of without the books actually being finished. They have never pretended to be GRRM nor will they ever be, but they have been tasked with delivering the conclusion of a story that they started off following as fans. Despite the millions in the bank, I probably wouldn't want that task myself, tbh. Because with the expectations of the fans and the fact we only take the word and writing of GRRM as worthy of praise when it comes to ASOIAF, it is a poisoned chalice. 

[WSmith84]

My major problem with the show is that the characters are so inconsistently written that I can no longer care about them. This is particularly true of minor characters, whose motivations and behaviour flip-flop in the extreme (Royce is a clear example of this) but it's also true of the main characters. Characters behave reasonably until they don't, and there is rarely a good explanation as to why this person is behaving outside the norm. Jon and Sansa, for example. Jon was murdered by his own men for making unpopular decisions. Sansa has spent years in King's Landing and the Vale learning to play the game. Davos is advising them; a man who spent years as Hand of the King. All of these characters should be more than intelligent enough to air out their differences privately so that they can provide a united front in public. But they don't. Why? Because the show needs some tension.

I now watch the show because it's basically impossible to escape it and I just want to know how it ends. I've long lost hope of avoiding spoilers till the books come out (if they ever do) so I'd like to have the spoilers on my own terms.

[Jordan La Cabra]

6 minutes ago, StepStark said:

So when you compare the writing in GOT and the writing of Blade runner, what is the result?

Do you make a difference between stuff you have to make elaborate plans how to enjoy, and stuff that is genuinely so good that you're enjoying it regardless of what were your expectations and preparations?

Blade runner is a two hour long film. There is a lot less margin for error in that.

GoT is into its 7th season. Of course there are going to be highs and lows. It's impossible to compare them fairly.

Even other brilliant TV shows like Breaking Bad had moments when it was brilliant and moments when it wasn't so good.

 

[Illiterati]

7 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You're not supposed to force yourself to do anything. You're certainly not supposed to force yourself to sit through seasons upon seasons of a tv show you clearly hate but you do it anyway, so anything is possible.

Feeling sorry for guys who have made millions out of adapting a series of books into the biggest current running tv show on the planet isn't something I feel or ever will feel. 

But D&D could have been any of us fans that took a chance on adapting a series of books they clearly are fans of without the books actually being finished. They have never pretended to be GRRM nor will they ever be, but they have been tasked with delivering the conclusion of a story that they started off following as fans. Despite the millions in the bank, I probably wouldn't want that task myself, tbh. Because with the expectations of the fans and the fact we only take the word and writing of GRRM as worthy of praise when it comes to ASOIAF, it is a poisoned chalice. 

It is indeed a poisoned chalice.  Would you want to complete an unfinished Catcher in the Rye?  You could probably muddle through the storyline, but your voice and prose would be markedly different from J.D. Salinger's, and you would take arrows from literary critics for it.

[Jordan La Cabra]

3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

It is indeed a poisoned chalice.  Would you want to complete an unfinished Catcher in the Rye?  You could probably muddle through the storyline, but your voice and prose would be markedly different from J.D. Salinger's, and you would take arrows from literary critics for it.

Agreed. And somewhere on the World Wide Web you'd find a forum where there's a witch hunt being launched because you destroyed JD Salinger's brilliant piece of work.

[The Onion Kniggit]

10-30 fucking gold dragons to bribe two useless guards!?

Do recall Selwyn Tarth offered 300 dragons for Brienne which is meant to be a noblemen's ransom and Tywin put a 100 Stags bounty on the Hound AKA one of the most formidable and ruthless fighters in Westeros...

Either D&D forgot everything about currency(as they do with everything else) or Davos is one shit negotiator. 

[Illiterati]

1 minute ago, The Onion Kniggit said:

10-30 fucking gold dragons to bribe two useless guards!?

Do recall Selwyn Tarth offered 300 dragons for Brienne which is meant to be a noblemen's ransom and Tywin put a 100 Stags bounty on the Hound AKA one of the most formidable and ruthless fighters in Westeros...

Either D&D forgot everything about currency(as they do with everything else) or Davos is one shit negotiator. 

I was a little surprised he didn't retrieve his gold before they shoved off.

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You're not supposed to force yourself to do anything.

But you're obviously forcing yourself to like GOT. That's what you said just minute ago:

14 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I know I could turn myself to hate GoT if I decided to pick it apart piece by piece, but I can switch off and watch it. I can take a seat back and say, 'hey, it's gone a bit absurd now, but at the end of it all, there are characters here that I love and I'm going to watch it to see what happens them'.

Your enjoyment in GOT is obviously a product of your decision what to switch and when. Again, that's your right, but it doesn't make much sense, sorry to say. And it definitely makes less sense than watching a show you dislike. At least I'm not making decisions about what I'm going to like and how. At the very least, I'm remaining open to possibility for the show to surprise me pleasantly, which they actually did in episode 4 with the battle (and ruined it entirely with the very first scene in episode 5).

7 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You're certainly not supposed to force yourself to sit through seasons upon seasons of a tv show you clearly hate but you do it anyway, so anything is possible.

I'm not forcing myself at all. As I already said, GOT is great opportunity to learn how bad writing truly looks. And it's a nice reminder because since this internet era started I usually watch only good movies and shows, and I almost forgot how bad ones look. And last but not least, I'm way too invested in ASOIAF.

But I don't hate the show. I just dislike it strongly, but that's not the same thing. The show did nothing wrong to me, and D&D did nothing wrong to me, I don't hate them, I just find their work embarrassingly bad. It's a rational conclusion and not an irrational feeling as you're trying to portray it.

11 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

They have never pretended to be GRRM nor will they ever be

Well they did made all those changes to the story for some reason. Since it's by now obvious that it all backfired and that the reason had nothing to do with storytelling or adapting, I can only conclude that they made at least some of those changes because they thought they're as good as if not better than GRRM. That's as arrogant as it gets in my eyes.

But even if it wasn't for the arrogance, those changes are still terrible. Remember Talisa? Remember Qarth? Remember Loras shaving Renly? Remember Ramsay torturing Theon for the entire season without revealing who he really is? All those examples are examples of terrible storytelling, and yes, it's even worse than summer blockbusters like Transformers, because Transformers weren't supposed to be an adaptation of a brilliant book series.

[TimeforTravel]

This episode was so rushed and terrible. My biggest gripe:

 

Jon "Hey Jorah, you're the son of Lord Commander Mormont. What a coincidence we meet!"

Sam: "Hey, a crippled boy? I know him, that's Bran Stark! What a coincidence you mention him!"

Gendy: "Hey Jon, you father knows my father. I saw him once! what a coincidence!" Jon: "I know right? I met your father once as well. What a coincidence indeed!"

Jon: "You're the Hound! I saw you once at my home, Winterstreet #6! What a coincidence!"

Gendry: "It's them. They shipped me off with a Red Witch. What a coincidence they're here!"

Tormund: "You're a fucking Mormont? Like the last commander Mormont? Oh my, what a fucking coincidence!!!!!!!"

Jorah: "Thoros? What a coincidence!"

 

Westeros doesn't seem to be a continent. More like a street with a happy bunch of neighbors. Westerstreet. 

 

 

[StepStark]

13 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Even other brilliant TV shows like Breaking Bad had moments when it was brilliant and moments when it wasn't so good.

I'm not even going to compare Breaking Bad with something from later seasons, but with something from season 2: please tell me what in Breaking Bad is as monumentally ridiculous as Qarth in GOT? And just keep in mind that Breaking Bad didn't have source material to draw from.